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Modern Submarine Warfare - 7/14/2015 3:15:12 PM   
Galahad78

 

Posts: 386
Joined: 9/28/2009
Status: offline 		So, here I am, a fan of modern attack subs, playing Gunner98's superb Northern Fury series, specially Episode 2, X-Ray station. I'm in command of 5 of the West's latest generation SSNs, including a Seawolf class boat (in Ace level, no less!), a Trafalgar and three 688s. ¿My mission? To detect, stalk and report and, if possible, bite these arrogant Soviets, just racing at 30 knots over my head with their heavies (the show-offs!!!).

Problem is that...I can't.

Mind you, I've done my bunch of reading during the last 25 years: Salamander's Modern Submarine Warfare (ironic, ha!) and Modern Naval Combat, Clancy's Submarine, Hunt For Red October, Red Storm Rising; Blind Man's Bluff, and a long etcetera. I've done my homeworks on the computer too, with Seawolf, Fast Attack, Microprose's Red Storm Rising, Jane's 688I, Sub Command and Dangerous Waters (although I'm only able to build a very simple TMA ), Harpoon Classic & II, and another long etcetera. I know what a thermal layer is and how they work, what a convergence zone is...Well, I think you've got the idea.

Then, I cannot understand how the most advanced SSN in the West is incapable of detecting some noisy guys racing at 30 knots just a few miles away. Just one contact when the Task Group comprises some noisier platforms? Same goes to the vaunted 688Is. What I'm doing wrong? I've tried many approaches, from getting out of Dodge (difficult if you do not know where the bad guys are) to charging heads-on (even more difficult if you do not know where the bad guys are!), just letting the default courses, speeds & depths...Nothing worked so far, and I get my subs sunk 9 times out of 10 (the tenth time I just run another scenario ).

No ranting here against Command or the author of the scenario, just against my dumbness Just wanted to know how other guys use their SSNs, would be great to know how it works in the real life.
Post #: 1
RE: Modern Submarine Warfare - 7/14/2015 3:26:33 PM   
SeaQueen


Posts: 1451
Joined: 4/14/2007
From: Washington D.C.
Status: offline 		I've noticed that in Command, sonar performance for submarines often varies dramatically depending on what depth you're at.

Try varying your submarine's depth. I try to change depth every 10-20 minutes. It tends to mean improved stealth on your part (if they've detected you, then you just messed up their ability to maintain contact) and at the same time opens the possibility of better acoustic conditions for detecting anything which might be there.

(in reply to Galahad78)
Post #: 2
RE: Modern Submarine Warfare - 7/14/2015 4:24:29 PM   
wild_Willie2


Posts: 2934
Joined: 10/8/2004
From: Arnhem (holland) yes a bridge to far...
Status: offline 		As Seaqueen already stated, being at the correct depth is everything, but it is also important to watch your own speed. If you move to fast, you can't detect weaker signals. Playing with subs in game is difficult as your detection range is very limited and depending on many factors. If I don't want to be detected, I generally move inside of the layer but if I am hunting I vary my depth and speed regulatory so I can listen in multiple layers and (hopefully) detect my targets.

Practice makes perfect

W.



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Post #: 3
RE: Modern Submarine Warfare - 7/14/2015 9:06:50 PM   
hellfish6


Posts: 843
Joined: 6/15/2008
Status: offline 		Yeah - pay attention to the "layer" at depth. Best to be either directly above or directly below the layer. Towed passive sonar arrays will (as I understand it) be on the opposite side of the layer from you when you're right above or right below the layer.

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Post #: 4
RE: Modern Submarine Warfare - 7/14/2015 10:04:24 PM   
Primarchx


Posts: 3102
Joined: 1/20/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hellfish6

Yeah - pay attention to the "layer" at depth. Best to be either directly above or directly below the layer. Towed passive sonar arrays will (as I understand it) be on the opposite side of the layer from you when you're right above or right below the layer.


Placing yourself in the middle of a strong, thick layer works well for working your way into a dense ASW screen that has above and below thermocline sensors.

(in reply to hellfish6)
Post #: 5
RE: Modern Submarine Warfare - 7/14/2015 10:09:56 PM   
hellfish6


Posts: 843
Joined: 6/15/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

quote:

ORIGINAL: hellfish6

Yeah - pay attention to the "layer" at depth. Best to be either directly above or directly below the layer. Towed passive sonar arrays will (as I understand it) be on the opposite side of the layer from you when you're right above or right below the layer.


Placing yourself in the middle of a strong, thick layer works well for working your way into a dense ASW screen that has above and below thermocline sensors.



That makes total sense, but I don't think I've ever tried it. Maybe tonight.

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Post #: 6
RE: Modern Submarine Warfare - 7/15/2015 1:10:15 PM   
p1t1o

 

Posts: 271
Joined: 4/6/2015
Status: offline 		The advice that improved my submarine combat the most was, patience, patience, patience. Never go faster than a creep unless you are positive there is nobody around. Don't chase people, just skulk around and let them come to you, no matter how long it takes. If you are detected and you are doing more than 5kts, the crew will only have one person to blame!

(in reply to hellfish6)
Post #: 7
RE: Modern Submarine Warfare - 7/15/2015 1:29:09 PM   
Primarchx


Posts: 3102
Joined: 1/20/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hellfish6


quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

quote:

ORIGINAL: hellfish6

Yeah - pay attention to the "layer" at depth. Best to be either directly above or directly below the layer. Towed passive sonar arrays will (as I understand it) be on the opposite side of the layer from you when you're right above or right below the layer.


Placing yourself in the middle of a strong, thick layer works well for working your way into a dense ASW screen that has above and below thermocline sensors.



That makes total sense, but I don't think I've ever tried it. Maybe tonight.


It's not without risk. You'll be as blind as your opponents will be and against active sensors only have a bare margin of picking them up before they see you. But it's something.

(in reply to hellfish6)
Post #: 8
RE: Modern Submarine Warfare - 7/16/2015 7:55:23 AM   
Galahad78

 

Posts: 386
Joined: 9/28/2009
Status: offline 		Thanks guys, I'll give it a try with your suggestions in mind

(in reply to Primarchx)
Post #: 9
RE: Modern Submarine Warfare - 8/8/2015 9:23:25 PM   
RoccoNZ

 

Posts: 87
Joined: 1/9/2015
Status: offline 		Command makes it really tough for submarine ops. Without any way of judging your own ambient noise levels, it's next to impossible to know how stealthy you are (or aren't).

(in reply to Galahad78)
Post #: 10
RE: Modern Submarine Warfare - 8/8/2015 11:55:46 PM   
ultradave


Posts: 1355
Joined: 8/20/2013
Status: offline 		Can't emphasize enough to stay with creep, however impatient you get for something to happen.

And I've played that scenario (Xray Station, right?) several times as the NATO subs. It's extremely difficult. And if you move too fast you will be detected. Easily. And die.

Stay slow, vary depth and vary course is the best way to listen for anything. In that scenario you don't know where anyone is so make sure you can listen all around by varying your course.

[Edit] - One other comment, and this is just suspicion, because I've never started it from the Russian side so I don't spoil it for myself, but I have a sneaking feeling that there are many many sonobuouys scattered about. If true this reinforces everything everyone is saying about being patient and careful. I seem to have been detected and pounced on many times when enemy ships didn't seem to be nearby, many times even when I thought I WAS being careful.

< Message edited by ultradave -- 8/9/2015 1:07:14 PM >

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Post #: 11
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