f-22 vs Eurofighter - realistic simulation?

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f-22 vs Eurofighter - realistic simulation? - 8/7/2015 9:37:15 AM

marksi10

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Hi, I am a complete newbie - I got the game a week ago, and since then I have played the training missions and a couple of scenarios (the Falklands one (UK), which seemed a bit easy, and the Canaries one in 2005, where I ran out of first missiles and then planes, especially tankers, and was destroyed by the Moroccan air force!).

I have just discovered the mission editor, and decided to see what would happen if I sent two F-22 against two Eurofighter. I chose the latest models (2016), and armed them with the same number of missiles, with the Eurofighters having Meteor and IRIS-T (I couldn�t find the RAF version on the list).

I set the Eurofighters up in a CAP, with their radars turned off, and pointed the f-22s towards them with their radars on. I then switched sides between them, but the only input I had was classifying neutrals as hostiles as soon as they were detected.

Losses/Expenditures

Luftwaffe: 8 Meteor
USAF: 2 Raptor

The Eurofighters picked up the F22s far out by first their radar warning recievers and then their IRSTs. The Raptors only saw the Eurofighters when they already had Meteors rushing towards them. The Raptors never got close enough to fire any missiles.

I am not questioning the realism of the game, as I am seriously impressed by the game designer�s attention to detail, and they seem to have used all non-classified sources available. What I would appreciate is any suggestions about how I can make the scenario more realistic.

Ideas I�ve had so far:

Add AWACS for both.
Only use the F-22s radar intermittently (is their a mode for this?)
Use supercruise on the F-22s before I detect the Eurofighters (they never seemed to use it in the combat).
Try it the other way round, with the Eurofighters on attack.

Thanks for any suggestions.

The Euro

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RE: f-22 vs Eurofighter - realistic simulation? - 8/7/2015 11:08:00 AM

thewood1

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I am no expert, but I think you are setting up the F-22s to fail. They come in completely lit up, while the Eurofighter is completely silent. I would not have the raptors coming in with their radar on from the start. On CAP, I would have the Eurofighter with its radar on and see what happens.

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RE: f-22 vs Eurofighter - realistic simulation? - 8/7/2015 12:38:06 PM

marksi10

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Sure, but then I would be setting the Eurofighter up to fail - the reason why the Raptors�radar was on was because the don�t have an IRST, and the reason the Eurofighters� radar wasn�t on was because they do.

I think it will be fairer if I give them both AWACS, that way, the Raptors can keep their radar off, and the Raptor�s AWACS should be able to see the Eurofighters before they get to fire at the Raptors.

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RE: f-22 vs Eurofighter - realistic simulation? - 8/7/2015 12:59:55 PM

thewood1

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All I am saying is that in CAP, the Eurofighters would probably have radar on and the F-22s as intruders would not. From a real world perspective, you are setting them up to fail.

The opposite would be true also.

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RE: f-22 vs Eurofighter - realistic simulation? - 8/7/2015 1:32:32 PM

marksi10

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Well, if I was the pilot, and I knew a raptor was out there, I wouldnt have the radar on, and the results bear this out. I will try it with both sets of radars turned off, and no AWACS, and see how they do, and also your way.

I just tried it with AWACS, but I think I will have to run it again - it worked as I expected, with the USA AWACS seeing the Eurofighters and German AWACS first, whilst the German AWACS only saw the USA AWACS, but although I made all contacts hostile as soon as I could identify them, the Raptors seemed to ignore the Eurofighters and only go for the AWACS, which ended up with them being shot down with IRIS-Ts when the Eurofighters spotted them. The Eurofighters also got the USA AWACS with a Meteor. I have no idea why the Eurofighters engaged the Raptors, but not vice-versa, unless the planes need to acquire targets themselves, not by datalink, to engage them. Next time I will try manually targeting each aircraft.

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RE: f-22 vs Eurofighter - realistic simulation? - 8/7/2015 2:19:56 PM

cf_dallas

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If you want a more robust qualitative test, I'd do the following:
- set up each side with a CAP mission with overlapping prosecution areas, and the patrol areas 150-175nm apart
- set up exclusion zones so each CAP automatically identifies contacts as hostile.
- put 4-8 fighters on each side so that the first kill doesn't guarantee the outcome
- run it a couple times so that random chance is less of a factor in the analysis

Start out with just the fighters, both sides active radars.
Then add in an AWACS on each side, outside the opposition's CAP protection area (so that you don't get the CAP chasing the AWACS). Set both sides radar to passive, and run it again, several times.
You could also throw in jammers on each side, outside the battle area, and run another set of simulations.
If you wanted to get really fancy, give each side two separate CAPs, one active radar and one passive only. Have them share a prosecution area, and place the passive ones 25nm closer to the opposition. Assign 4 aircraft to each patrol mission.

Loss of options to set up realistic situations and creative tactics.

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RE: f-22 vs Eurofighter - realistic simulation? - 8/7/2015 2:34:09 PM

marksi10

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Thanks for the suggestions - I hadn�t thought of overlapping CAPs - I was just going to run them into each other! I didn�t realise that an exclusion zone would help too.

I have thought of another possibility too, if the Raptors start winning most of the time (which I expect them to). I will put some F35s ahead of the Eurofighters and their AWACS - of course, this is unlikely to ever happen in real life (I can see the other scenarios occuring if Saudi Arabia does an Iran), but it�s fun to see what might happen if it did!

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RE: f-22 vs Eurofighter - realistic simulation? - 8/7/2015 5:21:08 PM

marksi10

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Ok, I just ran them into each other (I will save the fancy stuff for later), AWACS, no radar either side.

Result: 3-1 to the USAF! (2 eurofighters and a AWACS vs 1 raptor)

This game has amazing tactical subtlety - I could play this scenario with slight modifications for days and still find out something new each time.

Some of the interesting things I have learnt so far (for the other newbies):

The eurofighter needs the DAS to point the IRST, so that the Raptor can be acquired at long range. This means that if the raptor stays silent, the eurofighter (also silent) won�t see the raptor until its in IRIS-T range.

But...the raptor needs to use its radar to make the eurofighter a precise target (i.e. it can�t just rely on the AWACS to do this, at least not at the ranges I had the AWACS at - 100 nm behind the fighter when they began their supercruises upon detecting the other AWACS).

So...the USAF AWACS will see the eurofighters, but if the Raptors want to engage BVR they have to turn on their radars, which allows the eurofighters to detect the Raptors. So the raptors get a couple of seconds headstart in firing off missiles (possibly more with real life reaction times) but nevertheless both sets of fighters have to swing away before they are hit. So lots of missiles miss because they do not get updates, but some still seem to hit (in this case, more AMRAAMs than Meteors).

Apart from the other scenarios people have suggested, I also want to try firing down a bearing - this will let the raptors fire much earlier, but it may mean that they are out of range and therefore waste their missiles. I should also try it with the eurofighters turning their radar on when the raptors do, although I don�t expect this to have much effect on the outcome.

< Message edited by marksi10 -- 8/7/2015 6:22:21 PM >

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RE: f-22 vs Eurofighter - realistic simulation? - 8/7/2015 5:36:54 PM

marksi10

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I just thought, I wonder if the reason the Raptors missiles still seemed to get updates was because the AWACS was providing them?

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RE: f-22 vs Eurofighter - realistic simulation? - 8/8/2015 3:54:58 AM

mikeCK

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I'm not sure that the F-22 would have to turn in its radar for an Aim-120d shot. The weapon has its own internal radar and does not require a "lock". Maybe someone who knows more can advise, but I would think a general bearing launch would allow the missile to acquire a target down range?

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RE: f-22 vs Eurofighter - realistic simulation? - 8/8/2015 8:39:12 AM

marksi10

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I ran the above simulation two more times, with the eurofighters winning 3-1 each time. I then decided to wait longer to see if the eurofighters would become a precise target without using the raptors�radar, and bingo! They did and the eurofighters were destroyed without ever seeing the raptors. This is a bit more like what I expected to happen. To make it interesting again I will try it with a two f-35s in front of the eurofighters - this should mean that the USAF AWACS has to keep its distance, which will mean that the raptors have to use their radars again.

Mike, the AMRAAMs seeker has a very short range, so if the raptors dont want to get into a short-range fight, they need to provide updates to the AMRAAM with their own radar, or use the AWACS�s radar to do this (which allows them to stay silent and therefore unobserved).

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RE: f-22 vs Eurofighter - realistic simulation? - 8/8/2015 8:47:16 AM

marksi10

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Sorry, didn�t read your post properly - I checked and you can�t use a bearing-only launch with AMRAAM.

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RE: f-22 vs Eurofighter - realistic simulation? - 8/8/2015 9:52:23 AM

marksi10

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So, when I tried it with the f-35s in front of the eurofighters, it went as expected, with the f-35s unaware of each other until they were almost on top of each other. The f-35s saw the raptors first with their IRSTs, but because I didnt have any IR missiles I couldnt engage without the radar. I hoped to sneak past to get to the USAF AWACS, but the raptors saw me with their eyes, and I set the fighters on each other with their radars on. The result was that both sets of fighters were shot down (short-range combats are lethal!), and the eurofighters carried on to shoot down the USAF AWACS.

One interesting thing was that before the raptors were shot down the USAF AWACS seemed to spot the f-35s with its radar, but this was only after the f-35s had turned on theirs, and it seemed a bit far out (200nm) to spot a silent f35. Next time I will try moving the USAF AWACS closer, to see if it can spot the f-35s before they spot the raptors, but this will probably take them into Meteor range. I will also try it with the f-35s armed with IR missiles, to give them a chance of taking out the raptors first.

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RE: f-22 vs Eurofighter - realistic simulation? - 8/8/2015 10:34:49 AM

wild_Willie2

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Using the F35's in combination with the eurofighters provides you with a huge force multiplier. Use the F35's to scout the Raptors with their IRST and them have the eurofighters turn on their radars and launch their Meteors once in range. This would be the correct way of using these 4.5 and 5'th generation fighters.

< Message edited by wild_Willie2 -- 8/8/2015 5:52:24 PM >

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RE: f-22 vs Eurofighter - realistic simulation? - 8/8/2015 5:20:23 PM

MR_BURNS2

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For british Eurofighters search for Typhoon. The newest variants have AESA radar which is of course much harder to detect, even for the AN/ALR-94. This might make the tests more interesting.

Did your Typhoons DASS really pick up the F-22s radar so early?

My F-22s detected the Typhoon on radar at about 67NM, long before the Typhoon could pick up its radar emissions.

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RE: f-22 vs Eurofighter - realistic simulation? - 8/8/2015 6:28:15 PM

marksi10

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That�s odd...I was using the German, 2016 version, perhaps it has a better DAS...

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RE: f-22 vs Eurofighter - realistic simulation? - 8/8/2015 8:20:58 PM

marksi10

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I played it again, with the Typhoon (2016) this time, and the DAS picked up the raptors� radar at about 110nm, and the raptors� radar only picked up the lead eurofighter at 67nm. However, the raptors dodged the first salvo (helped by the wingman being pretty far behind) and all the others too - 12 meteors fired and no kills! The raptors needed 9 AMRAAM to kill both eurofighters. I think I will just have to put this one down to a bad day for the RAF, since they did everything right in terms of getting the first shot and remaining undetected as long as possible.

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RE: f-22 vs Eurofighter - realistic simulation? - 8/8/2015 9:26:56 PM

AlmightyTallest

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Just curious, but can you tell us what version of the sim your currently using?

I'm not having the same problem when I set up the scenario as you describe using v1.08 The F-22's LPI radar when on are hard for the EF2000 or Typhoons to detect in my version.

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RE: f-22 vs Eurofighter - realistic simulation? - 8/8/2015 11:04:43 PM

mikeCK

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marksi10

Sorry, didn�t read your post properly - I checked and you can�t use a bearing-only launch with AMRAAM.

I guess the next question is one you asked previously. Can the F-22 Fire its AMRAAM based on target data provided by AWACS? I thought the F-35 could but I suppose this would be dependent on the missile capability

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RE: f-22 vs Eurofighter - realistic simulation? - 8/9/2015 7:34:10 AM

marksi10

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AT, that must be it, I bought it last week and I haven�t updated it yet, because I can�t work out how to make the update fixer work (I�m really bad with computers). I wonder if the f-35�s ELINT sensor will pick up the f-22�s radar before it is detected?

MikeCK, yes, I found that I just had to wait a bit longer for the AWACS to firm the target up for me - when I did this, the raptors won 3-0, their best victory so far.

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RE: f-22 vs Eurofighter - realistic simulation? - 8/9/2015 1:28:59 PM

AlmightyTallest

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Thanks for the info marksi10, yea if you can get yourself updated to the latest 1.08 Final release it's a completely different scenario. You won't need the AWACS, the F-22's can use their LPI radars to pick up the typhoons at a range the Typhoon DAS can't see the F-22's yet and engage, even if one F-22 is actively emitting it provides info for the other passive F-22's to take a shot.

For some hints on how the F-22's are being flown, here's an interesting article about training a few years ago from Aviation Week and Space Technology magazine.

http://www.f22-raptor.com/media/documents/aviation_week_010807.pdf

There was a free accessable article in the February 2014 Air Force Magazine, but now it's a member site but I'll quote from the article that which might help with some scenario designs and tactics.

quote:

Asked what the biggest adjustment is for pilots coming to the F-22 from other fighters, McGinn said it�s the Raptor�s stealth.

�Incorporating the stealth piece ... is a significant mind shift,� he said, because the pilots have to unlearn the idea that everyone can see them, and they can operate �in that same portion of the airspace� and proximity to adversaries and remain undetected.

�That tactical jump is significant,� he said�the idea that �somebody isn�t necessarily shooting back.� The other adjustment is the change in spacing. Fourth gen fighters tend to fly closer together, while F-22s fly with �geographic separation.�

This could explain how widely separated F-22's can more quickly passively pick up and triangulate an adversary because of the wider spacing they are flying.

I was impressed with the first article that an F-22 is comparing with a Rivet Joint.

< Message edited by AlmightyTallest -- 8/9/2015 2:36:22 PM >

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RE: f-22 vs Eurofighter - realistic simulation? - 8/9/2015 1:36:47 PM

marksi10

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I managed to update (had to do it manually) to 1.08, and ran the scenario again, and got the same result! I don�t know if I need to click on something to make the Raptors use their radars in a stealthy way, because at the moment the DAS picks it up immediately.

Just checking, your eurofighters are silent, right? Otherwise I imagine the raptors ESM will pick them up way before the reverse happens.

Interesting point about the �geographic seperation�- I wonder if that�s been included in the game too?

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RE: f-22 vs Eurofighter - realistic simulation? - 8/9/2015 1:53:47 PM

AlmightyTallest

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Yea, I'm keeping the Typhoons radar silent, and the raptors with radar on. Using the scenario editor I can switch between controlling the Typhoons and Raptors and see what each side is seeing. For me it's working as I would expect.

If you have not rebooted your computer or went into your already created scenario and made sure to do a manual update of the scenario with the latest database you will probably see the same result as if you had not updated.

As far as geographic separation, I set my F-22's up so that they can overlap in radar coverage at near maximum range, I put mine about 30 to 40 miles apart when flying abreast of each other, I just manually keep them that far apart, I think you can set up a formation editor for them to keep the formation you want but I haven't explored that yet.

So try this, load your existing scenario, then select "Editor" at the top of the screen, scroll down to "Upgrade Scenario to Latest DB Version" and then retry your scenario.

< Message edited by AlmightyTallest -- 8/9/2015 2:59:47 PM >

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RE: f-22 vs Eurofighter - realistic simulation? - 8/9/2015 1:58:11 PM

Sardaukar

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And one thing...if test scenario is not rebuild to latest database, obviously result would be very similar to previous, barring the code changes.

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RE: f-22 vs Eurofighter - realistic simulation? - 8/9/2015 2:04:08 PM

marksi10

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I made a new scenario, and other things updated without a reboot, but I�ll try what you suggest.

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RE: f-22 vs Eurofighter - realistic simulation? - 8/9/2015 2:27:28 PM

marksi10

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Hey, thanks for the tip - I now have truly stealthy raptors! Now I will have to come up with some new tactics to even it up again.

< Message edited by marksi10 -- 8/9/2015 3:29:14 PM >

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RE: f-22 vs Eurofighter - realistic simulation? - 8/9/2015 3:17:18 PM

AlmightyTallest

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Cool, I'm glad it worked out for you. The scenario editor is a lot of fun trying to set up new tactics and situations to overcome.

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RE: f-22 vs Eurofighter - realistic simulation? - 8/9/2015 3:47:38 PM

marksi10

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I just tried adding the f-35s in again - seems like you need stealth to beat stealth! The silent f-35s detected the f-22s radar before it could see them, but despite getting the first shots in they were both destroyed by the raptors. But by that time the eurofighters were already firing meteors at the raptors, which eventually destroyed both of them for no more losses.

I will give the raptors an AWACS again - this should let them see the f-35s first, if this hasn�t changed as well.

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RE: f-22 vs Eurofighter - realistic simulation? - 8/9/2015 8:30:06 PM

marksi10

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Seems like the f-35s have got stealthier too - I put the AWACS first 75, then 40 nm behind the raptors, but it never saw the f-35s, and succeeded in getting itself shot down before the last raptor in the second run-through. The results were 3:2 to the RAF (2 f-35s) and 3:1 to the RAF (1 eurofighter). Think I need to forget the AWACS and put more raptors into the simulation.

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RE: f-22 vs Eurofighter - realistic simulation? - 8/9/2015 9:11:55 PM

AlmightyTallest

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Now your running into the challenges of two stealthy aircraft looking for each other, a problem the U.S. Air Force encountered in some training with the F-22 vs. F-22 setups.

From Air Force Magazine article.

quote:

To provide more cost-effective dissimilar air combat training, the 1st FW hosts a unit of T-38s, which play the role of Red Air. Fourteen aircraft are currently on station at Langley, said Lt. Col. Brian Kelly, director of T-38 operations at the 1st FW.

The aircraft�Air Force-owned and -flown but contractor-maintained�are ex-Republic of Korea T-38A and B trainers once leased from the US, then returned when the ROK got T-50 trainers.

�It does its mission great,� Kelly said. �It�s a low-cost, high utility-type aircraft that can present air-to-air targets [and] simulate fighter-type targets.� The purpose of the T-38s is not to engage the F-22s in visual-range dogfights but to �provide long-range targeting problems,� Kelly said. Should a T-38 actually close to �the merge� with an F-22, �the training point has been made,� he said, meaning that if the T-38s got through, the F-22s did something wrong.

quote:

Huyck pointed out that F-22s fighting F-22s is like two blindfolded boxers feeling around for each other, trying to land a lucky blow. It�s not especially useful training.

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