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Japanese Aircraft - 8/19/2015 4:00:12 PM   
kstoddard2

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 6/29/2005
Status: offline 		Gents,

I'm beginning a PBEM campaign game as the Japanese. What aircraft should the Japanese STOP building. In the old game I would halt production of the KI-30 and a few others. But things are different in this game.

Any tips?

Kyle

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RE: Japanese Aircraft - 8/19/2015 9:05:55 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		What rules are you playing with concerning PDU? There are tips but many of them depend upon what type of game you are engaged in. Hal

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RE: Japanese Aircraft - 8/19/2015 9:28:49 PM   
kstoddard2

 

Posts: 19
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Status: offline 		It's just the basic, un-modded out of the box full campaign.

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RE: Japanese Aircraft - 8/19/2015 10:16:31 PM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		There is a switch in the preferences for aircraft unit upgrades to be historical or Player Defined (PDU). It's available in every scenario, though it is locked down with the starting preferences with a PBEM (play by e-mail) game. Whether PDU is on or not affects Japanese aircraft industry decisions quite a bit. If PDU is off, you need to build some aircraft that weren't stellar so your air units can upgrade to them, and then on to something else. If PDU is off, you can skip building some aircraft types.

Bill

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RE: Japanese Aircraft - 8/19/2015 10:41:53 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		Bill is right but being modest, the PDU off and on means a LOT. Have a look at this url:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3329605&mpage=1&key=

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RE: Japanese Aircraft - 8/20/2015 12:18:17 AM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline 		If you are new, you should start playing with PDU ON

As per your question, I would stop immediately the following obsolete models:
Ki-51 Sonia
Ki-36 Ida
Ki-27 Nate

And also these:
Ki-56 Thalia
F1M2 Pete
because their production line can be used for more useful models


I suggest you read Mike Solli's AAR as it has lots of insights on how to play Japan

< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 8/20/2015 1:19:09 AM >

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RE: Japanese Aircraft - 8/20/2015 12:24:51 AM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
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From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		Remember related engine production as well.... but what would you recommend if PDU is off?

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RE: Japanese Aircraft - 8/20/2015 12:45:34 AM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
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From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline 		Then you will need to build almost all models, a lot more complex

Greyjoy's AAR is a good template

< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 8/20/2015 1:46:30 AM >

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RE: Japanese Aircraft - 8/20/2015 6:12:28 PM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 3211
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Status: offline 		You can also look at the last section of this http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3329605 if you have not looked at it already.

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Post #: 9
RE: Japanese Aircraft - 8/20/2015 8:17:27 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Some depends on what engines have already been built. Use those to make trainers if nothing more useful uses those engines. I think the proper question is 'what planes should I not stop making?' The army Babs are too useful for search and recon so I'd keep that line going for at least a dozen or so a month. Keep making the Glens and the subs that can deploy them, they seem invaluable to me. The game will allow you to use other float planes for that but I think that's probably gamey. The game will also let you carry a reserve on the sub, but I'm pretty sure that's gamey too.

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RE: Japanese Aircraft - 8/20/2015 8:28:03 PM   
geofflambert


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Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Another little issue is to remember that bomber crews trained on single engine aircraft will be effective on two engine bombers, so I'd keep the Idas coming. You need a lot of trainers. In my view at least 1/3 of your squadrons should be dedicated to that, but I tend to keep 1/2 or more on that. Don't forget that transports can be used for general training and the 'recruits' you have available are not ready for prime time. Also keep in mind that many single engine float planes can train in escort, and the IJN will always be desperate for well trained fighter pilots as well as the other categories of air crew.

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RE: Japanese Aircraft - 8/20/2015 10:43:21 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Remember related engine production as well.... but what would you recommend if PDU is off?


Well for starters you could nix the Oscar Ia factory. I haven't gotten much further than that yet.

Often times in PDU on games it makes a lot of sense to stick with a single engine bomber for a while Mary, Ann, Sonia or Ida. Really whichever model you like. The ones that drop 250kg bombs are effective in China, and also over isolated Allied troops. They are friendly planes that fly from small runways. Japanese pilots thought well of the Sonia. Just saying.

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Post #: 12
RE: Japanese Aircraft - 8/20/2015 11:03:39 PM   
geofflambert


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Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		I tend not to use those planes to bomb Chinese, it has little effect in the end. Train or do ASW. The Marys and Anns are good for that (ASW) because of their bombload. But I would hesitate to build any more.

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RE: Japanese Aircraft - 8/20/2015 11:12:25 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I tend not to use those planes to bomb Chinese, it has little effect in the end. Train or do ASW. The Marys and Anns are good for that (ASW) because of their bombload. But I would hesitate to build any more.



I am not so sure. Yes, the losses are less than a Helen dropping four 250 kgs, but the supplies used are a fraction, the airbase doesn't have to be big, and the disruption caused is for the most part hidden from sight.

I believe the armored Sonia is credited with the last kamikaze kill off the war. They modded them in 45 to carry a 250gk bomb I believe.

Sonia also makes for a decent short range recon plane in China -- they have cameras. Perhaps it can be a decent 2.5 hex ASW platform too -- helping to raise dl on subs. Don't know, never tried it until now.

Of course their utility is really hampered by the short range. As Japan you want range, and then more range. I will let you know in about 3 years how a Sonia does as a kamikaze.



< Message edited by Lowpe -- 8/21/2015 12:13:47 AM >

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RE: Japanese Aircraft - 8/20/2015 11:31:53 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Thoughtful reply. But two things remain as most important to me for such a plane, training and ASW.

You can evict enemy LCUs from clear or nearly clear hexes with few casualties. But first, you have trained your opponent to stay out of those, and two, Helens and Sallys can do a better job from a higher altitude and then return to their regular business. Also, the Lily is quite good in the ASW role, but I wouldn't build any to do it, just take the ones you have.

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RE: Japanese Aircraft - 8/21/2015 10:37:03 AM   
Encircled


Posts: 2024
Joined: 12/30/2010
From: Northern England
Status: offline 		Never really used the Sonia much for recon, due to the range.

Good in China as a harassment plane and a good trainer.

Quite good for local ASW around your port hubs as well

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RE: Japanese Aircraft - 8/21/2015 1:07:50 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Quite good for local ASW around your port hubs as well


I had a suspicion they might be really good at that. There are areas where the short range isn't that much of a detriment.

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Post #: 17
RE: Japanese Aircraft - 8/21/2015 1:27:43 PM   
Trugrit


Posts: 947
Joined: 7/14/2014
From: North Carolina
Status: offline
I have found this Japanese primer useful when I was trying to learn how to play Japan.
I'm still learning.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2933397

Near the end of the primer there is a list of Japanese planes and recommendations.

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Post #: 18
RE: Japanese Aircraft - 8/21/2015 1:57:42 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline 		I don't think I would ever spend in building trainers; unless I am role playing. The cost of a single engine Ki-36 Ida is the same as the cost of the most advanced single engine plane Japan have (think Ki-84 for example). In real life it makes sense to build docile, less costly planes for training, but that is not modeled in game.

Thus any second rate or recently obsolescent plane can be a good trainer. The game also doesn't model the fact that training was attritionally heavy. I think the US lost more carrier capable planes in Lake Michigan that it did in the entire Pacific. In game you can have the same trainers running for the entire war with barely any loss.

Playing Japan I would use all Army 1E bombers available, but won't build any more, eventually they will be all replaced by 2Es

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Post #: 19
RE: Japanese Aircraft - 8/21/2015 2:13:30 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		Here is a thought. One size 30 Sonia factory will make 360 planes per year. 1942 = 360; 1943 = 720; 1944 = 1080. That is 1000 planes for kamikazes in 1945. Yes they are junk, but as a point defence against invasions I bet they work, at the very least they will help tire the CAP out. In a PDU off environment they might excel!

In 1945 you need to be able to lose 2000 to 3000 planes and then be prepared to do it again 2 weeks later, and again 2 weeks after that. Downfall against mind-messing has taught me the value of quantity for Japan (if the pilots are there).

My humble opinion. Of course, Jorge, your logic is very sound.

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Post #: 20
RE: Japanese Aircraft - 8/21/2015 2:33:17 PM   
kstoddard2

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 6/29/2005
Status: offline 		This is what I used to do in the original version of the game. I also tried to concentrate on only a few lines of good aircraft trying to make sure I ended up with Ki-84s, J2Ms, N1K1s, D4Ys and J6Ms asap.

Do you have a link to Solli's AAR? I'd love to read it.

Thanks guys!

Kyle

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RE: Japanese Aircraft - 8/21/2015 2:37:20 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline 		Very valid point.. and this is of course just my opinion... if I change the 30 sized Sonia factory to build Oscars; it will of course cost more, but Oscar is a model in which I won't be afraid of increasing the factory size to even 100 or 150 planes a month; this because Oscar had a longer upgrade path that will allow me to have a 1st rate fighter in early 42, then a good escort in late 42/ 43 and then a very good kamikaze platform (long range, 2x250kg bombs, manouverable, relatively fast).

What I am saying is that keeping a factory building Sonia's for the entire war has an opportunity cost of using the factory for something else that might be better


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Post #: 22
RE: Japanese Aircraft - 8/21/2015 2:38:32 PM   
kstoddard2

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 6/29/2005
Status: offline 		Thanks Numdydar, I have that very file open right in front of me! Extremely useful!

Kyle

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RE: Japanese Aircraft - 8/21/2015 2:39:08 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline 		Japanese bible
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2959613


< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 8/21/2015 3:41:47 PM >

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RE: Japanese Aircraft - 8/21/2015 3:03:10 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

Very valid point.. and this is of course just my opinion... if I change the 30 sized Sonia factory to build Oscars; it will of course cost more, but Oscar is a model in which I won't be afraid of increasing the factory size to even 100 or 150 planes a month; this because Oscar had a longer upgrade path that will allow me to have a 1st rate fighter in early 42, then a good escort in late 42/ 43 and then a very good kamikaze platform (long range, 2x250kg bombs, manouverable, relatively fast).

What I am saying is that keeping a factory building Sonia's for the entire war has an opportunity cost of using the factory for something else that might be better


I think this illustrates one of the reasons the game is good. All the decisions.

Bear in mind that kamikaze Oscars use fighter squadrons, and there may come a time when you want them all to be fighters. I think the Frank A would make a far superior kamikaze (hat tip to Mr. Kane). I hope you are reading this Jocke...Frank A kamikazes. Scary.

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RE: Japanese Aircraft - 8/21/2015 3:05:07 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kstoddard2

This is what I used to do in the original version of the game. I also tried to concentrate on only a few lines of good aircraft trying to make sure I ended up with Ki-84s, J2Ms, N1K1s, D4Ys and J6Ms asap.

Do you have a link to Solli's AAR? I'd love to read it.

Thanks guys!

Kyle


Just search the AARs by hits. It will pop up near the top on the first page. You can sort from the top of the page by clicking on hits.

A good discussion there, if I remember about maintaining a single engine bomber. Pros and cons. Sometimes the best discussions are in the AARs.

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Post #: 26
RE: Japanese Aircraft - 8/21/2015 4:25:04 PM   
oaltinyay

 

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Status: offline 		Does the type of a/c used in a kamikaze mission affect the magnitude of damage they do ?

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RE: Japanese Aircraft - 8/21/2015 5:05:06 PM   
Alpha77

 

Posts: 2116
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Status: offline 		Cancelled a lot also resaerch (most 44+45 planes). Only Betty and Sally are produced as bombers. Lily will get Sally. The single engine bombers mostly train for asw and also as experiment for low naval and search. The plan is to get them Helen 1s as they have a MAD device which should be useful for ASW. Otherwise the Helen 1 isnt better than the Sally (only for ASW probably). Helen2 will get a bit better still not as good as their counterparts in the other side (Mitchel etc). Mitchels and DB7 can get through Japanese CAPs that only have Oscars. Not to mention US 4Es--So you need a better army fighter desperatly (which can only be Tojo in 42 and most of 43)....

Cancelled all transport too the payload is too low. Waiting for 43 when the copy of the DC transport will appaer. If their should be a need for transport before that date, still one line could be opened for the best of the old transports. Otherwise they will fade over time with op losses.

Search gets mostly Jakes, but 2 more seaplanes that use older engines from which a stock exists already. Got the first of the huge floatplane units now the big belly plane with 4E name I cannot remember, but they seem terrible to maintain and need a lot of support. So stick to the Mavis until a special reason would appaer that you need the huge 4E plane that takes a week before can be flown again

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 8/21/2015 6:06:59 PM >

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RE: Japanese Aircraft - 8/21/2015 5:10:44 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
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From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline 		Interesting that you mention Mavis easier to maintain than Emily (that is the other big 4E patrol). Both are SR4 and should technically be equal in terms of difficulty to maintain

< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 8/21/2015 6:11:12 PM >

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RE: Japanese Aircraft - 8/21/2015 5:39:09 PM   
Amoral

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

Interesting that you mention Mavis easier to maintain than Emily (that is the other big 4E patrol). Both are SR4 and should technically be equal in terms of difficulty to maintain


Durability factors into repair time. The Emily is significantly harder to keep operational.

< Message edited by Amoral -- 8/21/2015 6:51:13 PM >

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