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Medics - 7/27/2015 7:29:44 PM   
Rodmorg

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 10/25/2014
Status: offline 		Medics could make the game more realistic. If we see them, they could be in a medic truck and could be mounted and dismounted from other trucks. If the medic is close to a wounded soldier, the soldier could/would be:

1. Taken into a truck designed for medics and brought out of battle
2. Healed in-battle, but has the 'injured' status throughout the rest of the battle

Thanks
Post #: 1
RE: Medics - 7/27/2015 9:45:34 PM   
Nomada_Firefox

 

Posts: 1327
Joined: 11/12/2001
From: Spain
Status: offline 		I do not see nothing realistic at a Medic healing people when it is a very realistic game, it is not a men of war or other RTS.

(in reply to Rodmorg)
Post #: 2
RE: Medics - 7/27/2015 10:36:14 PM   
Rodmorg

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 10/25/2014
Status: offline 		Close combat or any war game set during WW2 cannot be realistic without a medic. A medic shows realism to the battlefield and to the game.
There is medics in most RTS games and it's only a suggestion and an opinion. Anyways, that's your opinion and it has no effect on my opinion, and I still strongly agree that Medics should start to appear in the CC series.

< Message edited by Rodmorg -- 7/27/2015 11:37:45 PM >

(in reply to Nomada_Firefox)
Post #: 3
RE: Medics - 7/28/2015 1:41:17 AM   
Nomada_Firefox

 

Posts: 1327
Joined: 11/12/2001
From: Spain
Status: offline 		A medic can be. Heal a soldier at a battlefield and after it fight again, no. Heal it and after two battles to fight again, no. Come on, you can not be cured from a bullet impact at few time.
quote:

There is medics in most RTS games and it's only a suggestion and an opinion.

Close Combat games are not RTS. They are wargames.

Again, if you want play a RTS, you must play men of war. You can cure a soldier with only the head at five minutes.

I have been following CC games from the begining, I have made several mods for many of them and I can tell you how most of the players will not agree with you.

< Message edited by Nomada_Firefox -- 7/28/2015 2:44:07 AM >

(in reply to Rodmorg)
Post #: 4
RE: Medics - 7/28/2015 11:49:41 AM   
Rodmorg

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 10/25/2014
Status: offline 		Well, Normada, I can tell you gain that whatever you say, you can't change my opinion, even if you say that you make mods. I have tried the 1946 one, but that doesn't really add realism to it, but more of a sandbox feeling to it.

I have bought and played every single Men of War game there is and I like the series. I am not saying that Close Combat should turn into a game like Men of War because CC has been going on for years and should keep like the way it is, but it is changing, so new additions need to be considered. I only posted this new thread as an opinion and a suggestion.

Plus, Close Combat requires strategy to win the battle/operation/campaign, so it is an RTS. The game series called Wargame is an RTS. It's even proved on the official site.

And, I do think you should get Men of War: Assault Squad 2

< Message edited by Rodmorg -- 7/28/2015 12:56:03 PM >

(in reply to Nomada_Firefox)
Post #: 5
RE: Medics - 7/28/2015 12:04:14 PM   
Nomada_Firefox

 

Posts: 1327
Joined: 11/12/2001
From: Spain
Status: offline 		The 1946 mod uses realistic units, there is nothing subrealistic.

But I do not try change your mind, it is the point. Just I tell you my opinion and the opinion from many others.

I have played Men of War games. I play a lot of different games. But CC games are different. They are not a RTS.

At the end. The creators from the BF does not go to follow your non-sense/unrealistic opinion. They have told it before, you can search it in the forum.;)

(in reply to Rodmorg)
Post #: 6
RE: Medics - 7/28/2015 12:13:30 PM   
Rodmorg

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 10/25/2014
Status: offline 		Can I have proof of this 'told it before' because I can't find it anywhere.

Oh, and I'm expressing my opinion and still you still can't change it - even if you try to 'throw everything you have at me'.

And it is not nonsense, it's a suggestion. You post about 90% of things on here and they're suggestions and opinions and they don't get answered.

< Message edited by Rodmorg -- 7/28/2015 1:15:43 PM >

(in reply to Nomada_Firefox)
Post #: 7
RE: Medics - 7/28/2015 1:16:59 PM   
Nomada_Firefox

 

Posts: 1327
Joined: 11/12/2001
From: Spain
Status: offline 		You have not searched too much..........I do not go to search it by you.....sorry but I have not time.

Suggestions at this moment are...........too late, the game goes to be released this year, even one year ago, they had very clear what they would make.

However, I have not posted suggestions. I have made questions, nothing more. This is the reason because Steve has answered everything what I have asked.



(in reply to Rodmorg)
Post #: 8
RE: Medics - 7/30/2015 1:17:04 AM   
Kanov


Posts: 312
Joined: 5/21/2012
From: México
Status: offline 		I too don't want medics, this is not C&C or age of empires man, c'mon! I don't want to see incapacitated soldiers getting ok because another sprite gave him a command to 'heal' and then he continues fighting on the same battle.

_____________________________

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Post #: 9
RE: Medics - 7/30/2015 5:02:43 PM   
Tornike

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 6/17/2015
Status: offline 		It wouldn't be realistic, plus the game is so advanced in development there surely won't be any additions from player suggestions. We're already waiting for release date to be announced.

(in reply to Kanov)
Post #: 10
RE: Medics - 7/30/2015 9:52:48 PM   
SteveMcClaire

 

Posts: 4472
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline 		There will not be medics on the battlefield of Close Combat for TBF.

I think they could be done realistically, but to do so they would simply be carting off wounded men so they did not get any worse during the current battle, and perhaps giving them a bonus to recovery after the battle. They would not be putting wounded soldiers back on their feet during a battle.

Steve

(in reply to Tornike)
Post #: 11
RE: Medics - 7/30/2015 11:15:39 PM   
Rodmorg

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 10/25/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tornike

It wouldn't be realistic, plus the game is so advanced in development there surely won't be any additions from player suggestions. We're already waiting for release date to be announced.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kanov

I too don't want medics, this is not C&C or age of empires man, c'mon! I don't want to see incapacitated soldiers getting ok because another sprite gave him a command to 'heal' and then he continues fighting on the same battle.


I think my first point is realistic, and my second is for more of a 'sandbox' sort of game.

(in reply to Tornike)
Post #: 12
RE: Medics - 7/31/2015 12:58:19 AM   
Nomada_Firefox

 

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quote:

2. Healed in-battle, but has the 'injured' status throughout the rest of the battle

Come on......when has it been realistic? do you know how many time do you need if you are shot at one leg or arm? if we ignored if your one bone is broken, you will need a lot of time, specially for go again to a battle.

(in reply to Rodmorg)
Post #: 13
RE: Medics - 7/31/2015 8:10:51 AM   
Rodmorg

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 10/25/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomada_Firefox

quote:

2. Healed in-battle, but has the 'injured' status throughout the rest of the battle

Come on......when has it been realistic? do you know how many time do you need if you are shot at one leg or arm? if we ignored if your one bone is broken, you will need a lot of time, specially for go again to a battle.


I said the first not the second. I know how long it takes to recover from being shot in the leg and arm - it is long compared to more serious wounds like the stomach, chest and face.

But, if a bone was broken, it could take a few weeks considering the certain situation with which part of the body has been damaged.

(in reply to Nomada_Firefox)
Post #: 14
RE: Medics - 7/31/2015 10:08:11 AM   
Nomada_Firefox

 

Posts: 1327
Joined: 11/12/2001
From: Spain
Status: offline 		¿A bone few weeks? where do you live? at mars? for more of the mortals, a bone will not fixed at less of months and more at 1941.

Do you know how many time need a dislocated bone? months for most of the mortals

(in reply to Rodmorg)
Post #: 15
RE: Medics - 8/12/2015 11:31:02 AM   
sepp3gd

 

Posts: 35
Joined: 8/6/2015
Status: offline 		Medics could make the game more realistic by merely being acknowledged according with respect to the composition of the division. As is the case within a division a specific regiment is composed of staff to contain medical staff.

For example here is the historically accurate composition of the German 3rd Mountain Division (3rd Gebirgsjager Division):
138th Mountain Infantry Regiment, 139th Mountain Infantry Regiment, 112th Mountain Artillery Regiment, 68th Bicycle Battalion, 12th (later the 112th) Reconnaissance Battalion, 48th Anti-Tank (later 95th Tank Destroyer) Battalion, 83rd Mountain Engineer Battalion, 68th Mountain Signal Battalion, 68th Mountain Field Replacement Battalion, 68th Mountain Divisional Supply Troops
*Stackpole Military History Series, The German Order of Battle Volume Two: 291st-999th Infantry Divisions, Named Infantry Divisions, and Special Divisions in WWII, Samuel W. Mitcham, Jr.

As far as actual medics on the battlefield, I do not think that much could be done in the way of 60 minutes. Perhaps a platoon leader or company leader suffering a serious injury whose only chance of survival necessitates immediate medical attention from a surgeon may be evacuated at a great risk. But it is unlikely for anyone to be evacuated during heavy fighting involving frontline infantry soldiers on the Main Battle Line. Such an order is not as simple as it sounds. In order to evacuate a stretcher case during heavy fighting would require many resources and is in reality a tactical decision. Covering fire for needs to be provided for the safe movement of not only the wounded soldier but the stretcher bearers and medic during all phases of the operation to provide for successful access and egress. Bearing in mind that in reality a medics job is not to taxi wounded men from the battlefield being that his level of skill is highly reserved for the act of providing medical attention, this labor is passed off to infantry soldiers. Preferably the recruitment of these soldiers is not to the detriment of the overall combat effectiveness of the force, and therefore stretcher bearers would merely be infantry soldiers who have nothing better to do than carry around dead weight, such as mortar men without any more mortar ammunition. All of this would tie up much needed manpower in order to redirect the efforts of your fighting force from taking an objective by force to now evacuating a stretcher case.

All things considered, it does not make sense tactically to downgrade the combat effectiveness of a front line fighting unit who's mission is to achieve a strategic point and conquer a map within no more than 60 minutes.

It has always been inferred that during the cease fire these matters are attended. The impact of medical attention to the gameplay has always been present in the force pool. It is my opinion that the addition of medics is no more needed than the visual addition of an artillery battery, and that the impact of both is more important to the gameplay then is the visual presence. (As perhaps the argument can be expanded to all things Close Combat).

(in reply to Nomada_Firefox)
Post #: 16
RE: Medics - 8/12/2015 11:56:46 AM   
sepp3gd

 

Posts: 35
Joined: 8/6/2015
Status: offline 		It should be noted that your wish for paratroopers dropping into the battlefield is as absurd.
From a realistic standpoint, it is no more fantastic than medics healing soldiers in the aforementioned
manner. For your information, paratroopers dropping into battle is analogous to a Division being mobilized within and one of it's infantry regiments being maneuvered to
the Main Battle Line. This is not ordered like artillery. This does not happen within the span of 60 minutes (the maximum allowed time for battle in Close Combat).

Furthermore, the size of the maps do not permit such a strategy to play out in real time during battles. And the desired affect you
describe is comical. Let me paint a real picture for you, assuming you were able to order such an operation as artillery, based upon
the size of the map, at most you would achieve nothing more than a few soldiers making it to the ground at a few random locations on the map, all
and without the ability to effectively communicate with the friendly forces, unable to ascertain the situation, and therefore having
little, if any, effect on the situation other than rapidly becoming POW, MIA, and KIA and raising the enemies morale while dropping yours.

And this is not an opinion, it is a fact. Just like bones don't heal in weeks.

(in reply to Nomada_Firefox)
Post #: 17
RE: Medics - 8/27/2015 11:48:28 AM   
darbyjack

 

Posts: 2
Joined: 8/26/2015
Status: offline 		Maybe the presence of a medic could help moral when taking screaming wounded away? Not sure what I think of this feature anyway... Whether it's included or not.

But I'd like to point out that Close Combat is an RTS game, since everything is happening in real-time and is strategic. Saying it's not is wrong.

< Message edited by darbyjack -- 8/27/2015 12:49:18 PM >

(in reply to sepp3gd)
Post #: 18
RE: Medics - 8/27/2015 1:22:21 PM   
Rodmorg

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 10/25/2014
Status: offline 		Well, I didn't say recover fully, but maybe a few months until full recovery. I haven't broken a bone, so I haven't really experienced what it is like.

Also, you can still fight if you have a minor bone broken.

(in reply to sepp3gd)
Post #: 19
RE: Medics - 8/27/2015 9:23:18 PM   
Nomada_Firefox

 

Posts: 1327
Joined: 11/12/2001
From: Spain
Status: offline 		When you break a bone, you will know how many pain suffer one with one broken bone. Even with a finger.

And a shot from a gun.............worse. I have suffered similar things and I am sure how the films are not realistic with most of these things.

(in reply to Rodmorg)
Post #: 20
RE: Medics - 8/29/2015 9:42:02 PM   
CGGrognard


Posts: 594
Joined: 10/3/2013
From: USA
Status: offline 		I agree. Just finished watching The Pacific again, and the soldiers called up to man the litters were the mortar team. And yes, they were
shot at, as they attempted to retrieve the wounded. As you stated, the injured and KIA were tended to in the cease fire. It was my
understanding that the program would determine if a soldier was "healed" sufficiently before returning to the next battle.
More importantly, I can't see many players filling valuable slots with medics for a battle. As it stands with GWTC and PITF, sometimes even
the second platoon can't be fully filled due to attrition.

_____________________________

"The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting." - Sun Tzu

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Post #: 21
RE: Medics - 8/30/2015 3:33:09 AM   
GeneralClausewitz

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 1/28/2014
Status: offline 		I respect the fact that medics will likely not be in the game. I'm not designing it so I don't get to make that pick.

Having said that, I think it would be extremely realistic (and fun) to have medics in the game. The problem is how would they work? As others have pointed out, battlefield wounds are typically horrendous and can take weeks, months, and years to recover from (and some wounds will never heal). Even light wounds can sometimes result in a ticket to the rear, if only for a few days.

Nonetheless, medics could definitely be added in a way that makes sense and doesn't destroy immersion. One of the reasons that the survival rate of wounded soldiers was so much higher during WWII than in past wars was because medics were routinely attached to frontline units, ensuring first aid happened ASAP. Medics were often despised in the beginning of the war since many of them were conscientious objectors. However once a unit entered combat they became one of the most revered members of the unit, since they were often the difference between life and death. It happened regardless of the branch or country. Ask a Marine what they think of the Navy, and you'll likely get some colorful and derogatory comments. However if you ask a Marine what he thinks of Corpsmen (meaning Navy medics that are assigned to the Marines), you'll get the exact opposite reaction. Medics were a staple of frontline combat in WWII, so there's absolutely nothing ridiculous about them being in a game that portrays WWII combat. However they would have to be implemented realistically. Here's one way to do that:

-One soldier in each HQ unit would be a medic. They either don't have weapons at all, or are very lightly armed. Since both the Germans and Americans typically respected battlefield medics, regardless of which side they were on, medics typically refrained from carrying weapons, and in return the enemy usually refrained from intentionally hurting them. The Pacific War was the exact opposite, since the Japanese rarely respected medics, oftentimes using the red cross on their helmets as a bullseye. Medics in the Pacific almost always carried weapons, and rarely wore a red cross insignia so they wouldn't stand out. However this game is obviously set in the ETO, so Pacific War is irrelevant.

-The medic gives a morale boost either to the entire unit, or at least to squads that are within their command range. In practically all wars, one of the most demoralizing sights a soldier could witness was a wounded comrade that was not receiving medical attention. The typical reaction to this sight was "If that guy isn't getting help, I sure as hell won't get it either!" On the flipside, a soldier seeing a wounded comrade receiving good and speedy medical care was emboldened to braver feats, knowing they were in good hands if they were likewise wounded.

-A medic can temporarily "detach", or has a special ability, that allows them to recover wounded soldiers. The quicker a soldier is recovered, the more effective the ability. There is a small chance (maybe around 5% or so?) that a soldier who has been incapacitated will have their major wound become a minor wound.


Having said all this, the casualty system in CC is what really needs an overhaul. From my experience, the killed to wounded ratio in CC is about 1:1. In reality, the ratio was more like 1:3. It would add a lot more depth to the game if casualties followed this ratio, and it could give some great incentives to have your medic near the frontlines, ready to spring into action if anyone gets hit. Currently, it seems like it really doesn't matter much if a soldier has been killed or just wounded, since the outcome is the same. Adding medics into the game would give a reason to care whether a soldier has been killed or merely wounded.

< Message edited by hrethgar -- 8/30/2015 4:38:46 AM >

(in reply to CGGrognard)
Post #: 22
RE: Medics - 9/2/2015 8:10:08 AM   
Nomada_Firefox

 

Posts: 1327
Joined: 11/12/2001
From: Spain
Status: offline 		At the end......I find all these theories very sub-realistic for a game very realistic.

(in reply to GeneralClausewitz)
Post #: 23
RE: Medics - 9/2/2015 4:20:07 PM   
Rodmorg

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 10/25/2014
Status: offline 		Don't be negative to some people's ideas, like you are to AOC.

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Post #: 24
RE: Medics - 9/3/2015 2:10:11 AM   
Nomada_Firefox

 

Posts: 1327
Joined: 11/12/2001
From: Spain
Status: offline 		Do not try change the mind from the people which they do not agree with you.

(in reply to Rodmorg)
Post #: 25
RE: Medics - 9/3/2015 9:07:35 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		Medics healing men would turn it into an arcade game not a proper wargame. No thanks. However maybe getting victory points by using medics to get casualties off the field would be OK.

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https://www.awargamersneedfulthings.co.uk/

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Post #: 26
RE: Medics - 9/3/2015 9:29:51 PM   
Nomada_Firefox

 

Posts: 1327
Joined: 11/12/2001
From: Spain
Status: offline 		If I am not wrong, this game will be very similar to CC3 and at CC3, when you had wounded, you could rest the team or replace dead soldiers. It would be the correct and realistic way, never healing in the middle of a battle.

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 27
RE: Medics - 9/7/2015 12:49:00 PM   
bbyrne

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 9/7/2015
Status: offline 		Adding Medics is a great idea. Not to magically heal the soldiers but to patch them up and evacuate them to the rear.
Morale would be low is injured soldiers were left to bleed out as troops advanced and left them behind. Waning morale would be limited if medics were able to provide first aid and evacuate soldiers to the rear. Imagine a scenario where a soldier is caught in an exposed area injured and under fire. Morale should plummet while this situation continues. If you provided cover fire and had the option to select a soldier to drag him out to a medic and carry him on a stretcher to the rear this would add another dimension to the game. You get moral dilemmas. Do you use two soldiers to drag this guy to the rear to boost morale or limit moral dropping or do you leave him to die? In some situations it may be preferable to leave him there as you lose two soldiers carrying him to the rear. Then there are real situations where soldiers get minor cuts and non incapacitating wounds. How about if you treat wounded enemy soldiers consistently then as the campaign continues they become more likely to surrender earlier expecting better treatment, if you summarily execute injured enemies then they should fight to the death Etc Etc.

A whole other dimension gets added.

< Message edited by KingBrian -- 9/7/2015 1:51:04 PM >

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Post #: 28
RE: Medics - 9/7/2015 12:53:19 PM   
bbyrne

 

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Joined: 9/7/2015
Status: offline 		A war game wanting to be realistic simply isnt realistic without medics.

(in reply to bbyrne)
Post #: 29
RE: Medics - 9/7/2015 2:16:18 PM   
CGGrognard


Posts: 594
Joined: 10/3/2013
From: USA
Status: offline 		How about taking this idea one step further. Give each soldier under odds that they will offer first aid to their injured comrade.

_____________________________

"The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting." - Sun Tzu

(in reply to bbyrne)
Post #: 30
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