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Concerned for your Success - 8/28/2015 3:17:19 PM   
lparkh


Posts: 426
Joined: 7/25/2004
Status: offline 		I've been following your design for sometime and am impressed and excited by the innovative directions you are taking the series, and wargaming.
That being said, I was quite concerned to read this in The Flare Path (on Rock Paper Shotgun) today. I quote:

"Deal with the Dark side of the war. Trade ethics off against operational imperatives. Answer to a War Crimes Tribunal if you lose. Or order both sides to observe the Geneva Convention and fight a gentleman’s war."

I understand where you are coming from in wanting to touch this live rail. And I respect why you want to do it. That being said there is a very good chance you will derail your game by putting such an element into a first release. Of course controversy can cause attention (sales?) but do you really want the kind of attention this might bring?

Generate a success on the core design idea of dealing with the realities of politics of operational command, don't get a fresh idea side tracked by this kind of thing. At least in your first release.

Let me put it differently, make sure you want the kind of attention focused disproportionately on this topic, that you are likely to bring. Plus a good chance for easy caricatures of wargamers and wargaming.

Good luck on the game.

< Message edited by lparkh -- 8/28/2015 4:45:56 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Concerned for your Success - 8/28/2015 4:48:00 PM   
sullafelix

 

Posts: 1520
Joined: 1/11/2005
Status: offline 		One part of the German campaign that is much discussed, is what would have happened had the Germans came in as deliverers instead of murderers to the different non-Russian ethnic peoples.

Their are many instances of the Germans being greeted with flowers etc. by Ukrainians and others.

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RE: Concerned for your Success - 8/28/2015 6:32:26 PM   
Vic


Posts: 8262
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline 		Hi lparkh,

Personally I think allowing some ethical undertones into the game is historical simulation speaking a good thing. Many a German general (although definitely not all) struggled with the extreme harshness of some orders from high command.

We already anticipated that not everybody would like this feature. Hence it is fully optional and switched off by default.

Best wishes,
Vic



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RE: Concerned for your Success - 8/28/2015 8:51:35 PM   
lparkh


Posts: 426
Joined: 7/25/2004
Status: offline 		I hear you. Just hope it doesn't prove a distraction In a first release. What is reported and talked about in the press and public often diverges from what was intended or actually implemented. Best of luck.

< Message edited by lparkh -- 8/28/2015 9:53:32 PM >

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 4
RE: Concerned for your Success - 8/29/2015 3:48:19 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		Me too..Far more wargamers will be thrilled to see new features like this than not. If you don't like it..easy..don't buy or play it. These days the PC brigade have it all their own way, which isn't good.

Finally, controversial publicity is better than no publicity. That's even if it does become an issue, and uif it does then I expect it will generate more sales than less as more will find out about it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

Hi lparkh,

Personally I think allowing some ethical undertones into the game is historical simulation speaking a good thing. Many a German general (although definitely not all) struggled with the extreme harshness of some orders from high command.

We already anticipated that not everybody would like this feature. Hence it is fully optional and switched off by default.

Best wishes,
Vic





< Message edited by wodin -- 8/29/2015 4:51:50 PM >

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RE: Concerned for your Success - 8/30/2015 2:04:44 AM   
Gargoyl

 

Posts: 41
Joined: 7/2/2005
Status: offline 		This added layer is what attracts me to the game. I am reminded by something I read on a blog concerning Hearts of Iron IV, in which the blogger said he felt a certain level of discomfort playing Hitler. A game is a game. Since I was a little kid playing with toy soldiers, I don't recall ever feeling compelled to then go out and run havoc on the real world. FPS games and RPG games have for some time added layers to games that call on the player to make an ethical choice (Skyrim, Dragon Age, Grand Theft Auto, etc.). If someone is queasy about adding political and ethical heft to a war game, I would ask them to consider the word "war" in war game and then probably refrain from the genre altogether.

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Post #: 6
RE: Concerned for your Success - 8/30/2015 9:37:10 AM   
Meteor2


Posts: 429
Joined: 7/20/2009
From: Germany
Status: offline 		I am glad, Vic is trying something new.
"What ifs" are a good idea, which I am missing in WitE.
There the concept to make things happen in their historical timeframe, although the way of the game is different, has always concerned me.
E.g. removal of historical units out of the front, because it is "historical", despite the actual route of the game.

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Post #: 7
RE: Concerned for your Success - 8/30/2015 1:50:19 PM   
USSLockwood

 

Posts: 543
Joined: 8/16/2002
Status: offline 		I'm not playing Hitler, I'm playing the leader of Germany. I'd be embarrassed
to make the mistakes he made.

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Post #: 8
RE: Concerned for your Success - 9/6/2015 6:22:18 AM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline 		"Deal with the Dark side of the war. Trade ethics off against operational imperatives. Answer to a War Crimes Tribunal if you lose. Or order both sides to observe the Geneva Convention and fight a gentleman’s war."

Not sure that I understand how this is supposed to work, or that I would want to see this kind of thing in a wargame.

To some degree there should have been no trade off between ethics and strategic imperatives--the nicer the Germans were to the native populace, the less resistance they would have generated. And who wants to answer to a War Crimes Tribunal? So it seems like all German players will follow the "gentlemen's war" path, which is of course pure fantasy.

And even if one side tries to pursue a "gentelman's war", why would the other side comply? Even if Hitler had ordered that the populace be treated with kid gloves (itself wildly implausible), a few months of Soviet atrocities would make the war just as savage as ever.

In my view this "gentleman's war" option is pure fantasy and you might as well put orcs in the game.

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Post #: 9
RE: Concerned for your Success - 9/6/2015 3:07:11 PM   
budd


Posts: 2972
Joined: 7/4/2009
From: Tacoma
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

Hi lparkh,

Personally I think allowing some ethical undertones into the game is historical simulation speaking a good thing. Many a German general (although definitely not all) struggled with the extreme harshness of some orders from high command.

We already anticipated that not everybody would like this feature. Hence it is fully optional and switched off by default.

Best wishes,
Vic



Curious myself how this will work. Props for trying something new and giving us the choice and not forcing it on us,good call.


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Post #: 10
RE: Concerned for your Success - 9/7/2015 4:06:15 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		In my view this "gentleman's war" option is pure fantasy and you might as well put orcs in the game.

+1. If I buy the game it would be the first thing I would turn off.

But TBH with poor standard of OOB offered up in DC2 I will be sitting on the fence for sometime waiting for reviews before buying this one.

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Post #: 11
RE: Concerned for your Success - 10/8/2015 12:23:17 AM   
Bossy573


Posts: 363
Joined: 3/25/2005
From: Buffalo, NY
Status: offline 		Have not been this juiced for a game in a long time. Can't wait.

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RE: Concerned for your Success - 10/27/2015 12:40:10 AM   
Delaware

 

Posts: 212
Joined: 8/6/2013
Status: offline 		Reading Fritz's OSTKRIEG and his argument is that you cannot separate the political/ethnic goals of Hitler with the military goals of Barbarossa. That said, I applaud you for approaching this issue in today's politcally correct climate.

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Post #: 13
RE: Concerned for your Success - 10/27/2015 10:29:53 PM   
governato

 

Posts: 1079
Joined: 5/6/2011
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline 		I appreciate a fresh look at this campaign. And the ability to turn some options off if I want to..;). Also looking forward for a game that has a chance to give the player truly operational choices rather forcing him to manage everything from Fronts to companies...


Hurry up! I want it in my Xmas stocking!


< Message edited by governato -- 10/27/2015 11:32:30 PM >

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Post #: 14
RE: Concerned for your Success - 10/28/2015 12:52:02 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Apparently release is 24 Nov.

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Post #: 15
RE: Concerned for your Success - 10/28/2015 10:59:26 AM   
Dorb


Posts: 371
Joined: 10/8/2013
From: Ohio
Status: offline 		The game will do fine, even in this over sensitive time we live in these days. History is history and we are playing GAMES that shadow history so the choices should be there. I think it is super of you to offer a switch to turn it on and off for some folks. Keep up the great work and stay the course.

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Post #: 16
RE: Concerned for your Success - 10/29/2015 2:21:24 AM   
lancer

 

Posts: 2963
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline 		Hi,

The Ethical dimension has been added to the game as it's an integral part of operational command.

There's no political, or historical, statement involved but the conflicting demands on the German player to prosecute the war successfully and at the same time do the right thing makes for some very interesting, and tough, decisions.

Cheers,
Cameron

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Post #: 17
RE: Concerned for your Success - 10/29/2015 2:43:42 AM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline 		So how exactly will this work? Let's the German player chooses "gentleman's war". The Russians would have formed partisan units regardless of German policies. So will gentleman's war increase or decrease partisan activity? You could argue it both ways, and moreover how it payed out would depend on Soviet partisan level of effort and policies.

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Post #: 18
RE: Concerned for your Success - 11/1/2015 10:41:44 PM   
lancer

 

Posts: 2963
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline 		Hi 76mm,

Partisans still occur regardless of the setting.

There are half a dozen additional factors that influence partisan levels, such as the policies of the German occupation Governors, and any decisions that involve these are switched off with a 'gentleman's war'.

There's also a range of other decisions that are disabled that aren't partisan related.

The setting is there to allow people who might be sensitive to any references to the unpleasant side of the war to switch this part of the game off.

We aren't fussed about the Orcs.

Cheers,
Cameron

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Post #: 19
RE: Concerned for your Success - 11/3/2015 5:22:24 AM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline 		OK thanks. I am intrigued by the various role-playing elements in this game and like to see novel approaches--almost any novel approaches--in new games. I'm a bit dubious about thus particular feature but look forward to seeing how it plays out.

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Post #: 20
RE: Concerned for your Success - 11/3/2015 8:22:58 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		I cannot for the life of me imagine how this will play out and am not imaginative enough to envision what is even really meant by this option - but am intrigued and so you have my full attention!

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Post #: 21
RE: Concerned for your Success - 11/3/2015 12:09:23 PM   
Hanal

 

Posts: 2312
Joined: 11/1/2003
Status: offline 		I am wondering if selecting the option simply changes some aspects of the game "under the hood" or are you presented with specific, potentially brutal or barbaric choices, in game, which alters the mechanics....

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Post #: 22
RE: Concerned for your Success - 11/3/2015 3:16:13 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline 		Partisans in Ukraine are a confusing lot. Anti Soviet partisans. Anti German partisans. Anti German and Soviet partisans.

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Post #: 23
RE: Concerned for your Success - 11/4/2015 6:49:17 PM   
governato

 

Posts: 1079
Joined: 5/6/2011
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline 		This thread should be renamed to 'I am overly excited about your future success' :)

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Post #: 24
RE: Concerned for your Success - 11/4/2015 9:05:17 PM   
Bozo_the_Clown


Posts: 890
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From: Bozotown
Status: offline 		The more options the better even if I only use it once.

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Post #: 25
RE: Concerned for your Success - 11/4/2015 10:12:23 PM   
lancer

 

Posts: 2963
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline 		Hi,

The option in question specifically relates to the Dark Side of the war. It's deliberately kept very generic and as unprovocative as possible so as to not offend anyone.

The reason it's there is to introduce a moral element to the model of Operational Command the game uses.

You'll be faced with decisions revolving around some curly moral issues. Everybody wants to 'do the right thing' but, as you'll find, this comes at cost in both relations and command resources.

The game makes no judgments on the unpleasant aspects of Barbarossa but it does aim to put you on the spot and highlight just how difficult it is to maintain a moral compass in the face of pressure from above and the scarcity of command resources.

As mentioned this part of the game can be toggled OFF for those who consider this a sensitive area. It's switched OFF by default.

Cheers,
Cameron

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Post #: 26
RE: Concerned for your Success - 11/5/2015 1:14:32 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		it will be interesting to see for sure.. is the manual released or was that just ateaser..
This game goes to the top of the list, hope its priced in my budget!
than ks to all for the hard work, we have come along way from AT!

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Post #: 27
RE: Concerned for your Success - 11/24/2015 4:40:39 PM   
lparkh


Posts: 426
Joined: 7/25/2004
Status: offline 		Even though I voiced my concerns for your success, I still wish you success and have just purchased the game. I admire what you are trying to do, even though I won't have time to play for awhile. So this purchase is a vote of support.
Nice Beta AAR report (I love seeing the logistical issues like truck distances modeled.. so key) as well as politics.

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Post #: 28
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