I've been following your design for sometime and am impressed and excited by the innovative directions you are taking the series, and wargaming. That being said, I was quite concerned to read this in The Flare Path (on Rock Paper Shotgun) today. I quote:
"Deal with the Dark side of the war. Trade ethics off against operational imperatives. Answer to a War Crimes Tribunal if you lose. Or order both sides to observe the Geneva Convention and fight a gentleman’s war."
I understand where you are coming from in wanting to touch this live rail. And I respect why you want to do it. That being said there is a very good chance you will derail your game by putting such an element into a first release. Of course controversy can cause attention (sales?) but do you really want the kind of attention this might bring?
Generate a success on the core design idea of dealing with the realities of politics of operational command, don't get a fresh idea side tracked by this kind of thing. At least in your first release.
Let me put it differently, make sure you want the kind of attention focused disproportionately on this topic, that you are likely to bring. Plus a good chance for easy caricatures of wargamers and wargaming.
Good luck on the game.
< Message edited by lparkh -- 8/28/2015 4:45:56 PM >
One part of the German campaign that is much discussed, is what would have happened had the Germans came in as deliverers instead of murderers to the different non-Russian ethnic peoples.
Their are many instances of the Germans being greeted with flowers etc. by Ukrainians and others.
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Personally I think allowing some ethical undertones into the game is historical simulation speaking a good thing. Many a German general (although definitely not all) struggled with the extreme harshness of some orders from high command.
We already anticipated that not everybody would like this feature. Hence it is fully optional and switched off by default.
Best wishes, Vic
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I hear you. Just hope it doesn't prove a distraction In a first release. What is reported and talked about in the press and public often diverges from what was intended or actually implemented. Best of luck.
< Message edited by lparkh -- 8/28/2015 9:53:32 PM >
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Me too..Far more wargamers will be thrilled to see new features like this than not. If you don't like it..easy..don't buy or play it. These days the PC brigade have it all their own way, which isn't good.
Finally, controversial publicity is better than no publicity. That's even if it does become an issue, and uif it does then I expect it will generate more sales than less as more will find out about it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Vic
Hi lparkh,
Personally I think allowing some ethical undertones into the game is historical simulation speaking a good thing. Many a German general (although definitely not all) struggled with the extreme harshness of some orders from high command.
We already anticipated that not everybody would like this feature. Hence it is fully optional and switched off by default.
Best wishes, Vic
< Message edited by wodin -- 8/29/2015 4:51:50 PM >
This added layer is what attracts me to the game. I am reminded by something I read on a blog concerning Hearts of Iron IV, in which the blogger said he felt a certain level of discomfort playing Hitler. A game is a game. Since I was a little kid playing with toy soldiers, I don't recall ever feeling compelled to then go out and run havoc on the real world. FPS games and RPG games have for some time added layers to games that call on the player to make an ethical choice (Skyrim, Dragon Age, Grand Theft Auto, etc.). If someone is queasy about adding political and ethical heft to a war game, I would ask them to consider the word "war" in war game and then probably refrain from the genre altogether.
I am glad, Vic is trying something new. "What ifs" are a good idea, which I am missing in WitE. There the concept to make things happen in their historical timeframe, although the way of the game is different, has always concerned me. E.g. removal of historical units out of the front, because it is "historical", despite the actual route of the game.
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"Deal with the Dark side of the war. Trade ethics off against operational imperatives. Answer to a War Crimes Tribunal if you lose. Or order both sides to observe the Geneva Convention and fight a gentleman’s war."
Not sure that I understand how this is supposed to work, or that I would want to see this kind of thing in a wargame.
To some degree there should have been no trade off between ethics and strategic imperatives--the nicer the Germans were to the native populace, the less resistance they would have generated. And who wants to answer to a War Crimes Tribunal? So it seems like all German players will follow the "gentlemen's war" path, which is of course pure fantasy.
And even if one side tries to pursue a "gentelman's war", why would the other side comply? Even if Hitler had ordered that the populace be treated with kid gloves (itself wildly implausible), a few months of Soviet atrocities would make the war just as savage as ever.
In my view this "gentleman's war" option is pure fantasy and you might as well put orcs in the game.
Personally I think allowing some ethical undertones into the game is historical simulation speaking a good thing. Many a German general (although definitely not all) struggled with the extreme harshness of some orders from high command.
We already anticipated that not everybody would like this feature. Hence it is fully optional and switched off by default.
Best wishes, Vic
Curious myself how this will work. Props for trying something new and giving us the choice and not forcing it on us,good call.
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Reading Fritz's OSTKRIEG and his argument is that you cannot separate the political/ethnic goals of Hitler with the military goals of Barbarossa. That said, I applaud you for approaching this issue in today's politcally correct climate.
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I appreciate a fresh look at this campaign. And the ability to turn some options off if I want to..;). Also looking forward for a game that has a chance to give the player truly operational choices rather forcing him to manage everything from Fronts to companies...
Hurry up! I want it in my Xmas stocking!
< Message edited by governato -- 10/27/2015 11:32:30 PM >
The game will do fine, even in this over sensitive time we live in these days. History is history and we are playing GAMES that shadow history so the choices should be there. I think it is super of you to offer a switch to turn it on and off for some folks. Keep up the great work and stay the course.
The Ethical dimension has been added to the game as it's an integral part of operational command.
There's no political, or historical, statement involved but the conflicting demands on the German player to prosecute the war successfully and at the same time do the right thing makes for some very interesting, and tough, decisions.
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So how exactly will this work? Let's the German player chooses "gentleman's war". The Russians would have formed partisan units regardless of German policies. So will gentleman's war increase or decrease partisan activity? You could argue it both ways, and moreover how it payed out would depend on Soviet partisan level of effort and policies.
There are half a dozen additional factors that influence partisan levels, such as the policies of the German occupation Governors, and any decisions that involve these are switched off with a 'gentleman's war'.
There's also a range of other decisions that are disabled that aren't partisan related.
The setting is there to allow people who might be sensitive to any references to the unpleasant side of the war to switch this part of the game off.
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OK thanks. I am intrigued by the various role-playing elements in this game and like to see novel approaches--almost any novel approaches--in new games. I'm a bit dubious about thus particular feature but look forward to seeing how it plays out.
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I cannot for the life of me imagine how this will play out and am not imaginative enough to envision what is even really meant by this option - but am intrigued and so you have my full attention!
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I am wondering if selecting the option simply changes some aspects of the game "under the hood" or are you presented with specific, potentially brutal or barbaric choices, in game, which alters the mechanics....
The option in question specifically relates to the Dark Side of the war. It's deliberately kept very generic and as unprovocative as possible so as to not offend anyone.
The reason it's there is to introduce a moral element to the model of Operational Command the game uses.
You'll be faced with decisions revolving around some curly moral issues. Everybody wants to 'do the right thing' but, as you'll find, this comes at cost in both relations and command resources.
The game makes no judgments on the unpleasant aspects of Barbarossa but it does aim to put you on the spot and highlight just how difficult it is to maintain a moral compass in the face of pressure from above and the scarcity of command resources.
As mentioned this part of the game can be toggled OFF for those who consider this a sensitive area. It's switched OFF by default.
it will be interesting to see for sure.. is the manual released or was that just ateaser.. This game goes to the top of the list, hope its priced in my budget! than ks to all for the hard work, we have come along way from AT!
Even though I voiced my concerns for your success, I still wish you success and have just purchased the game. I admire what you are trying to do, even though I won't have time to play for awhile. So this purchase is a vote of support. Nice Beta AAR report (I love seeing the logistical issues like truck distances modeled.. so key) as well as politics.
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