Kickstarter campaign for operational-level wargame

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Kickstarter campaign for operational-level wargame

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [General] >> General Discussion >> Kickstarter campaign for operational-level wargame

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Kickstarter campaign for operational-level wargame - 9/2/2015 3:30:49 AM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

A kick-starter campaign has begun for funding Combat Operations, a new operational-level wargame:Combat Operations

At least initially, the game will cover operations in Normandy, Italy, and Russia in 1944. While new operational-level wargames come out often enough, this one has some features which make it stand out from the crowd:
--hexless maps;
--WEGO rather than IGOUGO;
--allows for multiple players per side;
--accounts for command and control issues; and
--allows for manual resolution of tactical-level battles and incorporation of the results into the op-level campaign.

Moreover, if you've been complaining (like me) that more wargame developers don't adopt a kickstarter model for your favorite (undeveloped) project, this is your chance to show them that the model can work.

I've got no financial interest in this project but have had some interaction with the developer; it sounds like he's thought through most of the relevant issues, and that this is a project well worthy of support!

Post #: 1

RE: Kickstarter campaign for operational-level wargame - 9/2/2015 12:30:08 PM

NikiAlex

Posts: 35
Joined: 5/15/2014
From: Bulgaria
Status: offline

Developers might want to consider honest feedback of a potential backer.
Concept and core game elements looks appealing, but..
There is no movie to showcase the overall vision or pieces of the in-game features. If gameplay footage is not available at least some high level concept clip should be in place otherwise it�s at big disadvantage to catch much needed attention.
Game scope looks quite ambitious. Assuming that backers have no clue how much it cost to produce even a simple game such a tiny budget for a full time dev team still looks suspicious. Either they are capable to self-fund most of the production or have other sources to help. Having more clarity on this won�t hurt.
Also it was not very clear what I would get at each pledge level.. Digital download, boxed copy, manual, etc.
Hope it helps. Good luck to the boys!

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 2

RE: Kickstarter campaign for operational-level wargame - 9/2/2015 8:58:40 PM

Alchenar

Posts: 360
Joined: 8/2/2010
Status: offline

This isn't backable.

First - Jesus Christ $60 pledge in order to get a copy of a game that only exists on paper right now. That's awful. It's bad enough what the wargame genre thinks it should charge for a finished game, you can't ask for that for a potential game.

Next - a $35 pledge gets you a dlc that doesn't exist for a game that doesn't exist and which you won't have a copy of. It's difficult to even know where to start to explain all the things that are wrong with that.

Finally (in quick succession) - there's no content in that kickstarter. There's literally nothing on that page that I couldn't knock up in a couple of hours. You have to actually have something to show people if you want their money (see here for example). Not only has this guy not made a game before, he isn't even a programmer. He just has a 'team' of programmers. $32,000 is not enough money to make a game of any size. If you can make a game for $32k then that really means you can are making it for free when you aren't doing your day job.

Don't throw away your money on this.

(in reply to NikiAlex)

Post #: 3

RE: Kickstarter campaign for operational-level wargame - 9/3/2015 4:20:03 AM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alchenar
First - Jesus Christ $60 pledge in order to get a copy of a game that only exists on paper right now...

Next - a $35 pledge gets you a dlc that doesn't exist for a game that doesn't exist...

OK, you can quibble about pricing but personally I'm willing to take a flyer on innovative designs like this. I'm in for a lot more than $60, and I hope it works out...if not, I'll have done what I could to support the kind of game that I'd like to see developed. Personally I'm tired of seeing the orc and space geeks get all the new games on kickstarter, with zero wargames as far as I know...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alchenar
...there's no content in that kickstarter...Not only has this guy not made a game before, he isn't even a programmer. He just has a 'team' of programmers.

A non-programmer designing a game with a team of programmers! OMG, sacrilege! Presumably you're aware that developing a game like this is a team effort, and the dev has done a good job of taking leadership in the project, thinking through design issues, finding volunteer programmers, etc. Sure, it would be great if the dev were an ace wargame programmer and graphics designer and marketing guru and would quit whatever job he has to work on this full time, but if that's what you're waiting for, you'll wait in vain.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alchenar
$32,000 is not enough money to make a game of any size. If you can make a game for $32k then that really means you can are making it for free when you aren't doing your day job.

Let me see if I have this right--you are complaining that someone spends a lot of time and money working on the game to reduce the amount requested on KS? Really?

Of course $32k is not enough to develop a game of any sophistication. That's why the dev has spent so much time on this himself and recruited several volunteer programmers/graphics artists who have helped out.

If you think another KS model is viable for computer wargames, I'd love to see an example. The fact is that our market is a tiny niche, and there aren't many people who can or will quit whatever their day job is and have their livelihood depend on what they can (or cannot) raise on KS to develop a game.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alchenar
Don't throw away your money on this.

Lighten up, Francis...

< Message edited by 76mm -- 9/3/2015 5:22:34 AM >

(in reply to Alchenar)

Post #: 4

RE: Kickstarter campaign for operational-level wargame - 9/3/2015 12:57:21 PM

Alchenar

Posts: 360
Joined: 8/2/2010
Status: offline

$32k for a 10 man team to make a game in a year. That obviously doesn't add up so it's fair to ask 'what are you going to use the money for?'. On which the kickstarter is silent. If someone's making a labour of love then I wish them all the success in the world. If they want my money then I want to see some actual details. There's no proof of concept, there's no design outline, there's no indication that this is project that has any hope of success.

It isn't a case of thinking wargames are suitable for kickstarter or not, it's just objectively a terrible pitch.

In the meantime, Command Ops 2 and Flashpoint Campaigns and Decisive Campaigns are all good, proven, operational wargame series with recent and upcoming releases.

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 5

RE: Kickstarter campaign for operational-level wargame - 9/3/2015 2:01:52 PM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

I agree that there are plenty of good operational level games, and more coming, but the main reason I'm interested in this game is that it would allow linking tactical level games (Combat Mission, Steel Panthers, whatever) with an operational layer.

Having gone back and forth with the dev a few times, I guess the pitch is not as important to me as it seems to be to you. If you have any interest at all, I'm sure the dev will drop in sooner or later to answer any questions that you might have.

Regarding the funding, my understanding is that there are a handful of programmers working on this on a volunteer basis (a couple of them almost full time) and that the dev needs the $32k to for third party programmers to deal with some specific issues. But again, the dev can comment in more detail when he pops in.

[EDIT] Also, for whatever reason, computer wargames do not seem popular on KS, at least I've never seen a serious computer wargame developed via KS (not counting fantasy/space stuff). Frankly, I think that a small group working part-time could develop some innovative wargames that I'd be interested in, and I wish that more such teams would try raising money on KS.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 9/3/2015 3:07:00 PM >

(in reply to Alchenar)

Post #: 6

RE: Kickstarter campaign for operational-level wargame - 9/3/2015 10:10:43 PM

choppinlt

Posts: 5
Joined: 11/6/2013
Status: offline

Sorry, for the late show...

Alchenar, those of you that are aware of software development costs understand that development costs for a game of this complexity typically involve budgets in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, and we are only asking for $32,000 . The reason is because we have assembled a development team of several volunteers (that are mostly local to me) to work on this project. We have reached a point where we need full time programming to make this game a reality, and some of the programmers have stepped forward to do this full time at a highly discounted rate to see this game succeed. It is that simple! And BTW, the KS does explicitly state what the money is going for. Reference "The Current Goals".

NikiAlex, thanks for your constructive feedback. We are monitoring it and are paying attention. A short video will be forthcoming, but don't expect tons of gameplay footage because there isn't tons of it! I am NOT trying to mislead anyone...we are at an early stage of development. I have the game mechanics and algorithms at a point ready for full beta testing. The programming lags much further behind though. We have some code, and we are going to attempt to show off more ASAP, but it isn't a lot. There will be those that see this as a weakness, and I understand. But those following my project over the last 2 years can attest that I have been quite open to the public in terms of feedback to make this a game we all want. But how often do you get a chance to give your input to mold and shape a game at an early stage of development? How often are you able to make a real difference in the final product? If you find this game concept appealing, this is part of what your pledge will allow you to do. And you can bet that I will do my best to take care of my supporters when this game is completed!

< Message edited by choppinlt -- 9/4/2015 12:50:46 AM >

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 7

RE: Kickstarter campaign for operational-level wargame - 9/4/2015 6:40:40 AM

Alchenar

Posts: 360
Joined: 8/2/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

[EDIT] Also, for whatever reason, computer wargames do not seem popular on KS, at least I've never seen a serious computer wargame developed via KS (not counting fantasy/space stuff). Frankly, I think that a small group working part-time could develop some innovative wargames that I'd be interested in, and I wish that more such teams would try raising money on KS.

This is the thing that actually gives me an itch, which is why I'm posting rather than just ignoring and moving on. When this kickstarter fails (which it will) people are going to take it as a sign that Kickstarter is not the place for wargame projects. That's not necessarily the case at all: it's just a sign that terrible kickstarter campaigns fail. It's just like the argument that Wargames are immune to the sale>revenue curve that applies to every other video game - they aren't, but a badly designed game won't sell no matter the price.

Kickstarter success (especially for games) relies on a number of things that this campaign just doesn't have. You need to have something to actually show off that's more that a design document. You need to demonstrate clearly that your project is viable. You need to offer early backers a discount on the actual product. You need to mobilise a hell of a lot of social/games media attention in preparation for your campaign in order to maximise day one exposure, because momentum really matters in a donation campaign.

These are all rules that should be obvious to even the most casual observer, yet they're rules this campaign has broken.

e: I mean there's a claim that the game is playable in a beta form on a board, it would have been the simplest thing to produce a video with people playing the game and talking through the mechanics as they currently work.

< Message edited by Alchenar -- 9/4/2015 7:46:00 AM >

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 8

RE: Kickstarter campaign for operational-level wargame - 9/4/2015 10:38:44 AM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alchenar
This is the thing that actually gives me an itch, which is why I'm posting rather than just ignoring and moving on. When this kickstarter fails (which it will) people are going to take it as a sign that Kickstarter is not the place for wargame projects. That's not necessarily the case at all: it's just a sign that terrible kickstarter campaigns fail.

OK, your opinion on this project is clear, but I don't think it is as simple as saying that "terrible kickstarter campaigns fail"--the fact remains that AFAIK there have not been any successful serious computer wargame campaigns on KS. Why not?

Grog players often swear they don't have any interest in fancy graphics, etc, but perhaps without them there is nothing to draw KS contributors? Maybe everyone is happy with existing games and no one has made a serious proposal for new computer wargames via KS? Maybe the orcs are sucking all of the oxygen out of the room?

I don't know, but I hope that this project succeeds and helps pave the way for others.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 9/4/2015 11:40:26 AM >

(in reply to Alchenar)

Post #: 9

RE: Kickstarter campaign for operational-level wargame - 9/5/2015 11:17:32 AM

Wiggum

Posts: 135
Joined: 11/4/2010
From: Germany
Status: offline

I have to say im also critical about this, i wrote a article on my blog about it.
http://theragingwargamer.blogspot.de/2015/09/a-operational-level-wargame-on.html

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 10

RE: Kickstarter campaign for operational-level wargame - 9/6/2015 3:58:56 PM

aaatoysandmore

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
Status: offline

I personally would not give a dime to any kickstarter program. It's like giving money to charity as you really never know who's pocket that money goes in and what it is used for. Giving money on promises is like taking the beautiful girl out too expecting something wonderful at the end of the date (cause she promised don't yah know?) only to get a handshake ana see you later.