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RE: Oh, Canada! - 9/1/2015 3:57:36 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		Another day, artillery lands at Whittier for taking Anchorage.

A Dutch sub puts a torpedo into an xAP on their way to Soerabaja and the invasion of Darwin. She doesn't sink...

Loading up to invade Annette...

More grinding attacks in China along the Ankang road.

Sweeps don't find anyone...




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Post #: 181
RE: Oh, Canada! - 9/1/2015 7:06:42 PM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		Tomorrow Coal Harbor passes runway size 2, and the sweeps of North America will begin. Will Jocke defend?




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Post #: 182
RE: Oh, Canada! - 9/1/2015 7:17:36 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
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From: Argleton
Status: offline 		He must defend the aircraft factories to prevent destruction. Damage he can repair. Of course strategic points will be lost in either case.

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Post #: 183
RE: Oh, Canada! - 9/1/2015 9:50:22 PM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		Manpower is pretty low at Seattle, the chance of fire destroying the factories is pretty minimal.

But is Jocke stands and fights it is a pretty deft move...too bad I couldn't be closer.

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Post #: 184
RE: Oh, Canada! - 9/1/2015 10:45:53 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Manpower is pretty low at Seattle, the chance of fire destroying the factories is pretty minimal.

But is Jocke stands and fights it is a pretty deft move...too bad I couldn't be closer.


Manpower 8 is plenty, IMO.

I'm curious and may set up a test bed finally. First ever.

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Post #: 185
RE: Oh, Canada! - 9/2/2015 1:15:04 AM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I actually have thought of Russia, especially if AV looms near for 43 or 44. I think it would take six months to cut Soviets in half and destroy and conquer everything to the south. Without AV, I don't think it makes sense to attack Russia...but if AV looms it is a solid gamble.

I wasn't think AV, but rather just not having that front active the rest of the game. If you push him off the board, his LCU's can come in, but none of his AC until he gets a base on map. No AC, you can always defeat him. You would be able to put ~2400 AV there and then free up all the rest. It isn't clear to me that the allies can win if you don't have SOV as a threat in the game. that extra ~4000AV is a big difference, not mention the economic benefit of holding CHina/SOV in the end game.


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Post #: 186
RE: Oh, Canada! - 9/2/2015 12:27:24 PM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		I have had a sentai on port attack for quite a while; mostly they get 1-2 hits on Manila, but I figured he has been using it for submarines.

Today, we nail two submarines there.

Tomorrow the sweeps begin; I wonder if he will try a bombing run against Coal Harbor?

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Post #: 187
RE: Oh, Canada! - 9/2/2015 12:38:58 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I actually have thought of Russia, especially if AV looms near for 43 or 44. I think it would take six months to cut Soviets in half and destroy and conquer everything to the south. Without AV, I don't think it makes sense to attack Russia...but if AV looms it is a solid gamble.

I wasn't think AV, but rather just not having that front active the rest of the game. If you push him off the board, his LCU's can come in, but none of his AC until he gets a base on map. No AC, you can always defeat him. You would be able to put ~2400 AV there and then free up all the rest. It isn't clear to me that the allies can win if you don't have SOV as a threat in the game. that extra ~4000AV is a big difference, not mention the economic benefit of holding CHina/SOV in the end game.



A bit of a reality check. In my Feb 1942 DBB game, the Sovs have 31 infantry divisions on the board. Dozens more brigades and regiments. One tank division and 13 tank brigades, plus smaller units. Artillery? Oh, my. I think there may be an over-focus on air power here.

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Post #: 188
RE: Oh, Canada! - 9/2/2015 1:05:16 PM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		Just a bit of a reality check!

Radar provided the framework for an attack on Soviets in 42...do spectacular everywhere, and then cut them in half and destroy the Vlad half. By no means was is it easy, but then he decided not to pursue the Soviets, but instead dug in with the Soviets coming roaring back in.

That was Taming the Bear...which didn't quite work out!




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Post #: 189
RE: Oh, Canada! - 9/2/2015 1:40:37 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Just a bit of a reality check!

Radar provided the framework for an attack on Soviets in 42...do spectacular everywhere, and then cut them in half and destroy the Vlad half. By no means was is it easy, but then he decided not to pursue the Soviets, but instead dug in with the Soviets coming roaring back in.

That was Taming the Bear...which didn't quite work out!



Yep. Supply is always a problem, but the Sovs get 4200 a day from off-map in the north. And a lot of their LI is way up there too.

Another issue is that once the border is open the door swings both ways. The Sovs have a great RR network all the way to the Chinese borders. Picture 12 of those IDs and all the tanks driving on Harbin down the RR right of way. What does having Harbin's aircraft industries flipped do to the Japanese efforts everywhere else all the way to August 1945?

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Post #: 190
RE: Oh, Canada! - 9/2/2015 2:18:13 PM   
vicberg

 

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quote:

A bit of a reality check. In my Feb 1942 DBB game, the Sovs have 31 infantry divisions on the board. Dozens more brigades and regiments. One tank division and 13 tank brigades, plus smaller units. Artillery? Oh, my. I think there may be an over-focus on air power here.


So basically a full Manchuko vs. the Sovs is about 1-2 to 1-3 odds not accounting for air power, experience, etc..plenty of supply and is there a line of death?

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Post #: 191
RE: Oh, Canada! - 9/2/2015 2:29:11 PM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		Soviet troops come and go...especially in the latter half of 42. They are needed elsewhere. Also their replacements are weak...or low would be a better word.

The Soviets can't move until you violate their landspace, which makes for a coordinated strike at the railroads isolating all the troops down south a great tactic.

See Bullwinkle's response. See Taming the Bear by Radar it is only about 13 pages or so long if I recall correctly.

It is doable, but boy is it scary.



< Message edited by Lowpe -- 9/2/2015 3:29:48 PM >

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Post #: 192
RE: Oh, Canada! - 9/2/2015 3:11:54 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		March is slipping away...like every month.

Sweep Seattle and other bases, nobody home.

Clean up a few more bases on Java, scuttling a half dozen junky trawlers of one flavor or another, plus some search planes.

Another grinding attack in China on the Ankang road...

Moving on Liuchow...

Might be able to get the Darwin invasion off before the end of the month...it is assembling now.


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Post #: 193
RE: Oh, Canada! - 9/2/2015 3:27:57 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Soviet troops come and go...especially in the latter half of 42. They are needed elsewhere. Also their replacements are weak...or low would be a better word.

The Soviets can't move until you violate their landspace, which makes for a coordinated strike at the railroads isolating all the troops down south a great tactic.

See Bullwinkle's response. See Taming the Bear by Radar it is only about 13 pages or so long if I recall correctly.

It is doable, but boy is it scary.




Also note that rader's game is years and years ago now, before lots of learning by both camps. And before air coordination changes in patches. I haven't read the AAR in those same years, but I'd be interested to know what fort-building his opponent did. Me? I start building every Russian hex the first week.

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Post #: 194
RE: Oh, Canada! - 9/2/2015 3:28:29 PM   
mind_messing

 

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Status: offline 		Invading the USSR is a sure way to lose the strategic advantages of your current position.

Take China. Move troops from China to India. Take India.

If you get that far without winning an AV, then, and only then I would consider a campaign against the Russians, bringing everything possible to the battleground in the hope to get a bunch of VP's cheaply from bases and units to give you an AV.

The issue with the USSR is that the first couple of stages look easy: geography works in Japan's favor, they'll get the advantage of being able to pre-position units and they can get the first strike in.

The real crux comes once the first few stages are over - it's when the Soviets start fighting back that issues will develop.

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Post #: 195
RE: Oh, Canada! - 9/2/2015 3:29:24 PM   
Lowpe


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Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		We are bombing Portland today...sweeping Seattle and Portland.

Bombing Chungking with close to 100 Sallies or Lillies. Hope to catch a fair chunk of the Chinese planes on the ground there. 50 Ftrs and 50 Bombers.

Should be in Anchorage in a day or two...I should have it by the end of the month.

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Post #: 196
RE: Oh, Canada! - 9/2/2015 3:32:47 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Soviet troops come and go...especially in the latter half of 42. They are needed elsewhere. Also their replacements are weak...or low would be a better word.



They do come and go.

But two data points:

My Feb 1942 DBB game, Soviet infantry squads in pools: 947

My November 1943 stock Scen 2 game, Soviet infantry squads in pools: 5715

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Post #: 197
RE: Oh, Canada! - 9/2/2015 3:33:28 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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Joined: 2/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg

quote:

A bit of a reality check. In my Feb 1942 DBB game, the Sovs have 31 infantry divisions on the board. Dozens more brigades and regiments. One tank division and 13 tank brigades, plus smaller units. Artillery? Oh, my. I think there may be an over-focus on air power here.


So basically a full Manchuko vs. the Sovs is about 1-2 to 1-3 odds not accounting for air power, experience, etc..plenty of supply and is there a line of death?


No LOD. Why do you need one?

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The Moose

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Post #: 198
RE: Oh, Canada! - 9/2/2015 3:34:18 PM   
mind_messing

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Soviet troops come and go...especially in the latter half of 42. They are needed elsewhere. Also their replacements are weak...or low would be a better word.

The Soviets can't move until you violate their landspace, which makes for a coordinated strike at the railroads isolating all the troops down south a great tactic.

See Bullwinkle's response. See Taming the Bear by Radar it is only about 13 pages or so long if I recall correctly.

It is doable, but boy is it scary.




Also note that rader's game is years and years ago now, before lots of learning by both camps. And before air coordination changes in patches. I haven't read the AAR in those same years, but I'd be interested to know what fort-building his opponent did. Me? I start building every Russian hex the first week.


Even forgetting what on-map fort building takes place after Dec 7th, the majority of the Russian bases have serious fortress units already deployed.

This discussion has prompted me to re-read Radar's AAR. It doesn't give me much hope for Japanese chances. The majority of Rader's attacks ended up costing the Japanese far more than the Soviets: the best results required that the Japanese had overwhelming superiority in numbers, which you can do locally, but not everywhere...

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Post #: 199
RE: Oh, Canada! - 9/2/2015 3:39:43 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
This discussion has prompted me to re-read Radar's AAR. It doesn't give me much hope for Japanese chances. The majority of Rader's attacks ended up costing the Japanese far more than the Soviets: the best results required that the Japanese had overwhelming superiority in numbers, which you can do locally, but not everywhere...


I think you are correct! But it is fun to discuss it!

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Post #: 200
RE: Oh, Canada! - 9/2/2015 3:52:10 PM   
mind_messing

 

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Joined: 10/28/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
This discussion has prompted me to re-read Radar's AAR. It doesn't give me much hope for Japanese chances. The majority of Rader's attacks ended up costing the Japanese far more than the Soviets: the best results required that the Japanese had overwhelming superiority in numbers, which you can do locally, but not everywhere...


I think you are correct! But it is fun to discuss it!



Absolutely. I was recently looking at the possibility of a pre-emptive strike on the USSR in August of 1945 in the hope of getting some VP's cheaply before the Soviet steamroller smashes Manchuria. Nothing as extensive as an all out invasion: merely the seizure of the isolated coastal bases and possibly Northern Sakhilin.

As nice as the idea is, it doesn't look like it's worth it. Northern Sakhilin would require an amphibious landing at Okha, which by '45 will be a serious fortress. The other, smaller bases may be easier to take, but the question is if they're worth it.

I'd still advocate a pre-emptive strike by the Japanese against the Russians in August '45. Amass your bombers and bomb the airbases and manpower at Vladivostok and elsewhere to give the VVS a bloody nose before the campaign starts.

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Post #: 201
RE: Oh, Canada! - 9/2/2015 3:53:47 PM   
HansBolter


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Status: offline 		In Focus Pacific (active Soviet version) the border forts for both sides are real bears to bulldoze through.

I know both sides are beefed in this scenario, but the fort LCUs themselves probably are not very different from stock in their ability to seriously slow an advance.

Against the AI in FP, I have already taken Harbin by mid February '42 and have separated Manchuria from China by the end of Feb.

It's pretty darn easy to steamroll Manchuria with the Russians.

I agree with the Moose that a drive to separate the Vlad sector from the north may be ill advised if the Soviets are driving from the North on Harbin.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 9/2/2015 4:54:07 PM >

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Post #: 202
RE: Oh, Canada! - 9/2/2015 4:16:24 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

In Focus Pacific (active Soviet version) the border forts for both sides are real bears to bulldoze through.

I know both sides are beefed in this scenario, but the fort LCUs themselves probably are not very different from stock in their ability to seriously slow an advance.

Against the AI in FP, I have already taken Harbin by mid February '42 and have separated Manchuria from China by the end of Feb.

It's pretty darn easy to steamroll Manchuria with the Russians.

I agree with the Moose that a drive to separate the Vlad sector from the north may be ill advised if the Soviets are driving from the North on Harbin.


Thanks Hans, I was curious about that. There are a ton of Japanese troops in Manchuria but the AI can't use them well and they aren't in good starting positions, and when Japan doesn't get the benefit of a surprise strike it is very hard on Japan vs. Soviets.




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Post #: 203
RE: Oh, Canada! - 9/2/2015 4:40:50 PM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		I am bombing the manpower at Portland in the hopes of starting fires....will see what happens!

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Post #: 204
RE: Oh, Canada! - 9/2/2015 5:30:36 PM   
Lowpe


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Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		Almost clicked on Jocke's AAR again...

Chungking goes well...




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Post #: 205
RE: Oh, Canada! - 9/2/2015 5:32:41 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		Oscars and Zero dogfight sweeping Allied planes over Japanese troops in India. Only 3 pilots KIA for the day...

Damage at Chungking is nice...

Bad weather scrubs air raid on Portland.




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Post #: 206
RE: Oh, Canada! - 9/2/2015 9:31:15 PM   
Lowpe


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Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		Annette Bay has about 4000 troops, 60 or so AV, and will hold out for a little.

No air attack on Portland weather, rolls, who knows...A squadron from the KB swept Portland however. Seattle has 350+ guns, but Portland is almost empty.

And that is about all the excitement happening. Coal Harbor is 52 percent to level 3 and a large group of Nells and Kates are repairing, training etc.


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Post #: 207
RE: Oh, Canada! - 9/2/2015 11:17:44 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		I have a Lilly IIa r&d factory, size 30 repaired, but I am not sure I want to let it go to production. I already have a Lilly 1b factory making the guys. The factory will convert to production at the end of the month.

Lilly Ib is basically a safe plane to stop producing. So the size 34 factory will upgrade to the Lilly IIa, while what do I convert the size 30 r&d factory to?

Most Lilly IIa squadrons go to Lilly IIb divebombers.

I feel fairly comfortable with my Frank A and Oscar and Zero R&D. I am over committed I think to the various Tony lines. I have two George factories, and 2 Jack (only need 1 Jack imho) which seem ok to me.

I don't have any Ki83, and there are 4 Oscar Sentai that upgrade to it (and one then upgrades past it to the Karyu of which I have one factory). Seems a flimsy reason to R&D this guy.

Any ideas?


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Post #: 208
RE: Oh, Canada! - 9/3/2015 2:56:44 AM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
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From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline 		Seems fairly obvious to move it along to the Lily-IIb.

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Post #: 209
RE: Oh, Canada! - 9/3/2015 10:28:11 AM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		I have one size 60 Lilly IIb factory already going.


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Post #: 210
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