Why revert to the small scale?

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Steel Panthers World At War & Mega Campaigns >> Why revert to the small scale?

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Why revert to the small scale? - 4/18/2001 9:57:00 AM

jkrissw

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Joined: 4/17/2001
From: Lemon Grove, CA
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I just discovered this board and the SPWaW game project, and I was wondering why Matrix has taken a step backward from the platoon scale in SP-III? I rather enjoyed putting together scenarios of brigade scale...

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- 4/18/2001 10:22:00 AM

skukko

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Need of even smaller scale is evident. Biggies is out there as many as you have toes and fingers. IMO mosh :D

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- 4/18/2001 5:07:00 PM

waynef

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"and I was wondering why Matrix has taken a step backward" Not a step backward at all. Its the logical progression of where the game should have gone but couldnt due to technology at the time. There are plenty of larger scale games on the way. Check the Matrix product page.

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- 4/18/2001 8:21:00 PM

ruxius

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quote:

Originally posted by waynef: Not a step backward at all. There are plenty of larger scale games on the way.

Subscribing this thousands of times.. I bought the original SP3 and I did not completed not even the first battle I started... as soon as I saw 10 autoblinda into a single hex moving togheter firing a shell like the SP1 system I had LOL and then a drunk ! Noooooooooooo ! I felt in a doom and that was only for the fact I knew SP1 for first... Maybe if I played SP3 for first without experiencing SP1 now I could share your point of view...but..sorry no equal to SPWAW and SP1 actually.. SPWAW is another genealogy than SP3..

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- 4/18/2001 10:36:00 PM

Paul Vebber

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IF we do redo the engine (and I hope we do!) one of thethings I will strive for is scalability! I'm not sure how that would be implemented, but we ahve some ideas!

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- 4/18/2001 11:37:00 PM

Mikimoto

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quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: IF we do redo the engine (and I hope we do!) one of thethings I will strive for is scalability! I'm not sure how that would be implemented, but we ahve some ideas!

Hello Paul. I hope you will redo the engine, too!!! What kind of scalability: Options to change unit scale fron section/squad to Platoon/company? Changing the hex scale, from 25 to 50/100 mts, for example? Or both? Thanks and saludos.

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- 4/19/2001 4:19:00 AM

Grenadier

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a SCALE of half the standard would be ideal for balance in the graphics and relationships to each other. How many shacks have you seen that are 50 meters square of 1/2 the size of a football field? Same with tanks. 25 meters per square would make it much more real in terms of sizes

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- 4/19/2001 5:19:00 AM

Greg McCarty

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quote:

Originally posted by Brent: a SCALE of half the standard would be ideal for balance in the graphics and relationships to each other. How many shacks have you seen that are 50 meters square of 1/2 the size of a football field? Same with tanks. 25 meters per square would make it much more real in terms of sizes

Absolutely! scale; scale; scale. Smaller; smaller; smaller. bring it in; bring it in; bring it in. Lets get these relationships in line once and for all. Bravo!

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- 4/19/2001 6:28:00 PM

Rhodan

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A smaller scale would be nice, you would still be able to make decisions on a batallion level but you would be able to do the actual fighting on platoon/squad level. I always felt that because of that reason urban infantry fighting in the current version is not nearly as intense as it could be. I am definitely all in favor of it.

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- 4/19/2001 6:33:00 PM

murx

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I yet haven't seen a RPG/strategy crossover (at least no good one and not for WW2). Things I really like to see: 1. Scale down to company size to make RPG elements useful. 2. Have more statistcis/values for each NCO/CO 3. Have these guys have an own personality - like the hotshot M8 Greyhound commander leaving his hidden recon position and try to get that Panther from behind. The cowardly platoon leader that is always several hundred yards behind the rest of his unit calling for arty. Units not going exactly to their designated target area (maybe the NCO was too stupid to read the map). 4. Make all these values hidden so you have to estimate your NCO/CO by their written file and behavior in training missions and real front line combat. 5. Let these guys have the ability to learn (right now I'm dreaming of using siulated neuron learning - the way 'Creatures' and the fresh 'Black and White' uses them to simulate learning/reaction). This would mount up to a complete horror for the programmers - but at the end the replayability would be sooo much higher as units would act different each time you start up a scenario. And it could probably make the AI better. Another bad point is that it would take massive raw CPU power to simulate at least 1000 neurons per NCO/CO... But still I'dreaming that one day a game like that exists... murx

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- 4/19/2001 9:36:00 PM

Flashfyre

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I think the point being missed here is, SPWAW is NOT a regression to small-scale; the original Steel Panthers game by SSI was the same scale as this, and SPWAW is simply a much-enhanced, more-bang-for-the-buck (read freebie :D ) upgrade to that classic. SPIII was SSI's venture into larger scale games, like AH's Panzer Leader. Although I bought it and played it, I was not pleased with the scale, because it took some of the intimacy of combat out of the game. In fact, for many wargamers, the scale of SPWAW isn't small enough.....we would like to see something like the old Squad Leader mega-hex, which simulated terrain much better. For those of you who don't remember this (showing my age now :( ), the mega-hex was the same scale distance, but had a greater capacity for terrain interpretation; that is, the graphics of the buildings, trees, hedges, and so on were more realistic in their proximity to each other. Instead of having a "wooden building" that seemed to fill the hex, the building only was a terrain effect if LOS crossed the picture. Same with trees, walls, etc. So, in effect, you could drive a tank right up next to a building, without the possibility of immobilization because the "hex" was considered a building. Also, the Advanced rules introduced the idea of "bypass" movement, which gave you the choice of entering the terrain (building, trees, walls, etc.) or bypassing it by moving thru the clear terrain in the hex. This is something I would like to see in SPWAW. Anyhow, Kriss, this game hasn't regressed in scale. It has faithfully maintained the small-unit tactics of the original, and for that, we are glad.

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- 4/19/2001 9:49:00 PM

jkrissw

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quote:

Originally posted by Flashfyre: I think the point being missed here is, SPWAW is NOT a regression to small-scale; the original Steel Panthers game by SSI was the same scale as this, and SPWAW is simply a much-enhanced, more-bang-for-the-buck (read freebie :D ) upgrade to that classic. SPIII was SSI's venture into larger scale games, ... Anyhow, Kriss, this game hasn't regressed in scale. It has faithfully maintained the small-unit tactics of the original, and for that, we are glad.

Ok. I'll buy that. I've never played SPI/II, and have usually been more into larger (regimental units on up) games, which is probably why I bought SPIII in the first place and enjoyed it so much.

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- 4/20/2001 12:33:00 AM

Rickenbacker

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Personally I see SP:WAW as a huge step _forward_. SP II is the only computer wargame I've ever bought, and I skipped no III because I prefer the small unit battles, but if WAW hadn't been free I would have bought that too. Plenty of large scale games out there, but very few small ones. :cool:

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- 4/20/2001 7:27:00 AM

Larry Smith

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Yes!!!! BYPASS movement!!!! It does irk me that sometimes my vehicles go and crash though buildings (immobilizing themselves) when I have them move long distances. Now if only the command to fire and to move didn't use the same mouse button. Many times have my tanks driven into known minefields to drive into the enemy hex, when what I wanted was for them to shoot!!! Friction in battle non-withstanding, some boo-boo's are just Dumb!! (happens when the target is in hex occupied by an as-yet unspotted unit, so the target "+" is offset; sometimes my fingers are faster than the mouse-click too soon). :mad:

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- 4/21/2001 8:26:00 AM

Randy

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:)I initially posted this on the wrong site, but what about the idea of a game with multiple scales? You could start out with SP3 operational manuever (200yds per hex)and then once you get engaged have the option of going to SPWAW scale (50 yds per hex). You would be able to do battalion/brigade manuvers and then resolve combat at the company-squad/vehicle level like we do with SPWAW. I don't know about the technical aspects of programing, but what about this idea? No other game/company has done this! What do you guys think?? Thanks Semper Fi Randy

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- 4/21/2001 7:51:00 PM

Banjo

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Yes, bring the scale down to 25 meters. How many roads do you see that are 40 meteres wide given a 50 meter hex. The same comment was made about Squad leader years ago. That scale would give the game so much more flavor and depth. Now if buildings could be made to have multiple levels, but that may be stretching it a bit for now. The 250 meter hex is a great idea, but I would like to see it pushed out as far as 1 km per hex also. Then from there to the 30 to 50 km hex sizes they are going to use in the other games that are under development. The Russian and Pacific games matrix has available now alreadytrack numbers of guns afvs and inf. units albeit in an abstract manner, it would only take a bit of work to convert that data down into an oob for the forces available to use in the engagement on the smaller scale. If each unit cannot be tracked in the larger scale to develop the 50 to 25 meter scale battles, then a number of points could be made available to buy your forces. The number of points would vary due to reductions due to losses in battle and use of supplies for movement, ammunition use, and of course food and fuel. The unit availability and rarity factor will come into play here as well It would take quite abit to coordinate the development of each level of play, but in the long run it would be the absolute best game system out there. I tried something similar to this several years ago with my ASL game. I made a giant hex that was 25 hexes wide or one kilometer total. It is about 2 foot wide. I made it with six sides instead of 4, that way it would work with a yet to be made 1 km per hex map board. I had to move and this project got shelved. With the purchase of a computer the plans started moving forward again, then someone turned me on to SPWAW and the ASL project is on hold. In a somewhat related note, I mentioned in the sceario development #3 forum about a freeware program called Hexgrid. This alows you to superimpose a hexgrid over any pix file. I have no idea where I downloaded it from, but, I have used it the last few days to generate game maps using REAL maps and scaling the hexes to fit. Yes, I'm getting 50 meter hexes from actual maps if they are on a small enough scale. I then use this to develop SPWAW maps using the editor. If anyone knows of this program please let me know. I think I got it from, a wargame site, or an RPG site that had some downloadable game assist files.

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