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Loading troops - 8/22/2009 4:33:32 PM

Suribachi

Posts: 23
Joined: 1/16/2007
From: Upstate NY
Status: offline

Ok, I still cant seem to load any allied troops from anywhere onto any transports! Indian, Aussie, US, etc........ US, India, Pakistan, Australia, etc.... what in the hell am I not doing correctly! In WITP I just formed a task force - transport - and loaded the appropriate troops and cargo set destination and off they went - how is this game different in that respect? I understand not being allowed to get the troops off the Philipines or out of Singapore before the hammer drops, but I am talking reinforcements from the mainlands for future stands. All I ever see in the troop loading area are flight groups. Can someone please explain to me what I am missing here.

Thanks

Post #: 1

RE: Loading troops - 8/22/2009 4:41:19 PM

d0mbo

Posts: 592
Joined: 8/21/2009
From: Holland
Status: offline

do you order the land units to "strategic move"first? it will give the number of days before the unit is packed. only then it will begin loading onto your vessels.

(in reply to Suribachi)

Post #: 2

RE: Loading troops - 8/22/2009 4:42:13 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

Ratsass,

Without knowing the specifics about which LCUs (troops) you're trying to load from which base with which type of transport, we're just kind of guessing. Here are a couple of the more likely explanations:

1. You are trying to load troops that belong to a restricted command. These can be identified by their HQ affiliation. Anything that is West Coast, for example, should have an (R) next to it. You can't move these troops from the mainland without paying political points to change commands, and there's a lot of them. Same goes for most of the initial Aussie, Phillipines and Dutch units.

2. In order to load troops, you must first order them to prepare for 'strategic movement'-it's one of the 'move' orders. It takes a few days for them to pack their kit and be ready to load and sail.

I'll stick with you if you want to try these two things and then report back.

(in reply to Suribachi)

Post #: 3

RE: Loading troops - 8/22/2009 4:45:09 PM

Icedawg

Posts: 1610
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: Upstate New York
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

2. In order to load troops, you must first order them to prepare for 'strategic movement'-it's one of the 'move' orders. It takes a few days for them to pack their kit and be ready to load and sail.

You can load in combat mode too. You just have to be sure you are using an amphibious TF.

(in reply to Chickenboy)

Post #: 4

RE: Loading troops - 8/22/2009 5:11:49 PM

Suribachi

Posts: 23
Joined: 1/16/2007
From: Upstate NY
Status: offline

Ok, thanks guys for the info, I think I now have it semi-figured out. The added steps required for troop readiness/prep prior to loading is obviously considerably more sophisticated than the WITP standard version. I'm still playing with/trying to figure out the difference and abilities of the commercial ship types (x) vs standard military ship types and what/how they impact load types and offloading - amphib vs port. Is there a difference between strategic move and move when it comes to troop prep prior to ship loading? Certainly adds a whole new dimension to moving troops, more realistic for sure. The admiral edition has taken WITP from a checkers game level to a chess game level!

(in reply to Icedawg)

Post #: 5

RE: Loading troops - 8/22/2009 7:48:06 PM

KyleK

Posts: 52
Joined: 1/3/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ratsass

Certainly adds a whole new dimension to moving troops, more realistic for sure. The admiral edition has taken WITP from a checkers game level to a chess game level!

more like chess to that 3 level chess spock played on the enterprise....no not that enterprise...

(in reply to Suribachi)

Post #: 6

RE: Loading troops - 8/22/2009 8:04:31 PM

John Lansford

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
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Don't forget that if it's a restricted command you won't be able to load them at all.

(in reply to KyleK)

Post #: 7

RE: Loading troops - 8/22/2009 8:55:24 PM

RHoenig

Posts: 89
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline

I�d like to add that it is important to consider where the troops are going to unload (asuming the base they are being loaded has a large port)
If you are using a transport TF, the ships can only unload on a pier (i.e. they are using the port equipment to unload)
If your target base has only a port of size 2 or less, it will take a loooooooong time to unload those ships, therefore an amphibious TF (loads only troops in combat mode) will probably the better choice.

Summary (as far as I know, feel free to correct me):

Restricted troops (Yellow command with an (R) ) can only be loaded, after changing command to unrestricted one (and paying PPs for it)
Permanent restricted troops (White command with an (R) ) can never be loaded

-Transport TFs load only troops in strategic movement mode
-Transport TFs load/unload using the port equipement and therefore load/unload very slowly on low level ports
-Transport TFs store troops/equipement efficient (space) but not for combat

-Amphibian TFs load only troops in combat movement mode
-Amphibian TFs load/unload using ships boats/cutter and stuff and therefore load/unload faster on small ports
-Amphibian TFs load troops/equipement inefficient (space) but combat ready

_____________________________

"Tell the King: After the battle my head is at his disposal, during the battle he may allow me to use it!
GenLt. Seydlitz to Frederik the Great after disobeying an order to attack

R. Hoenig, Germany

(in reply to John Lansford)

Post #: 8

RE: Loading troops - 9/11/2015 3:54:13 PM

ReconTom

Posts: 37
Joined: 9/8/2002
From: Upstate New York
Status: offline

I am a NEWBIE to WitPAE. Very much a newbie. I have looked over the various posts here and am still confused about loading and transporting troops.

First I was confused by NOT being able to see any entries in a ship's dialog box that specifically indicated or listed "Cargo Capacity" or Troop Transport. I DID pay for the teeny print manual and then I found this multiple page chart listing EVERY SHIP in the game and for example, it tells shows a CA as being able to transport Troops and does so in FAST TRANSIT. Ok...I will read the conditions for getting to troops at a base and how to load.

That being said, I notice that under Troop Transport in the MANUAL it says that AO and TK CAN NOT transport troops...OK...but then when you look in the manual's chart for Ship transport ability, has a YES in the AO'S column for troop transport, BUT in the notes at the end of the row for the AO...NO TROOPS. There is contradiction No. 1. Contradiction No. 2 is that in the Troop column for Troop transport the TK has a YES (though no not to the contrary as with the AO). Nevertheless both are designated to be able to transport troops despite the manual on page 193, section 8.3.4 TRANSPORTING GROUND UNITS says "Any ship with a cargo capacity may transport ground units, EXCEPT for AO and TK class ships that can only carry fuel. So what does that mean? Some AOs and Some TKs ONLY carry fuel and there are others that don't always carry fuel? And thus eligible to sometimes carry troops? And the further confusion is to me that I have NOT been able to find a notation of "cargo capacity" or "troop transport" on any ship data lists in a ship's dialog box.

I guess this is all by way of saying: What good is the manual (though obviously sometimes...no one is perfect), but in this case I am not sure what on the section 6.3.2.3.1 SHIP TYPE CARRYING ABILITY TABLE, on page 113, is reliable or not.

I did get some answers from this thread, however, and that is, I assume, that ANY TIME YOU TRY TO TRANSPORT anything that you must first go through the strategic move hoops to prepare, for example, the troops to pack up and get their kit together...that makes sense. So I will try it...and I suppose for those ships who can carry planes, that the same thing would be true. I was in VS-22 48 years ago on the Essex, Wasp and Intrepid and it most certainly took us a few days to pack up all our squadrons "stuff" including getting as many bird up as possible to fly them on instead of being loaded on to the carrier.

My final point of confusion or need for clarification, is that, "Transported ground units may be unloaded on any hex that contains land. Port sizes determines the speed of unloading, so the process is very slow if coming 'ashore over the beach.'" So what constitutes a "port"? The base? Some bases have Anchor symbols and some do not. So is there a port at every base and the ANCHOR ONLY shows up IF THERE ARE SHIPS ACTUALLY DOCKED THERE and/or by default, is every base (on a shoreline) A PORT? Or ONLY the bases that have an ANCHOR? When I leave this forum I will open a scenario and see if there are any "anchor" symbols at bases, which when clicked on will show NO SHIPS. If so then I guess that makes ports of only bases that have an anchor. But then again, how could any base set at the shoreline NOT have a port. They couldn't survive without one so I likely answered my own question.

In the interest of not coming off here as some rules lawyer or anal about rule books, my interest is because I have played The Battle of Coral Sea about five times now, getting beat by the A.I. each time but once when I got a Marginal Allied Victory. Moresby was LOST to the Jap A.I. in each of them BUT the one, in which I was lucky TO HOLD P.Morseby to the end. So naturally I figured, finally, that I have to find a way to get more troops there to defend it. And thus became mired in the incredible, and sometimes contradicting cute little "manual." I did try transferring airgroups to both Cookstown and to Moresby itself to help defend it. I thought, "Well that seems a good tactic." NOT!! The Mitchell's and the P40s were no match for the Jap planes. Likewise trying to interdict the Jap Transport TFs coming up the coast to land at Moresby didn't work either because they mutilated the Lexington and Yorktown before I could do much damage to the troop TF with its many escorts.

Sorry this is so long...took a lot less time to type this than to ferret out all the details subject to question here in many pages of that "manual."

THANKS to anyone who has struggled with troop transport and has any tips...and in the end, I don't know if moving troops around in what I always though was likely a "naval" game is a waste of time anyway. But then I have played nothing but CORAL SEA since I purchased the game about two weeks ago.It is likely that in the campaign game or Guadal that troop transport ability will be crucial. I am not an optimist and I don't ever see my way to actually winning against a human player...lucky to be able to beat the A.I.

Thanks again,

Tommy

_____________________________

ReconTom
Major General Tom Ciampa
ACWGC
XIV/2div/4thbgde

(in reply to Suribachi)

Post #: 9

RE: Loading troops - 9/11/2015 5:37:17 PM

zuluhour

Posts: 5244
Joined: 1/20/2011
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ReconTom

I am a NEWBIE to WitPAE. Very much a newbie. I have looked over the various posts here and am still confused about loading and transporting troops.

First I was confused by NOT being able to see any entries in a ship's dialog box that specifically indicated or listed "Cargo Capacity" or Troop Transport. I DID pay for the teeny print manual and then I found this multiple page chart listing EVERY SHIP in the game and for example, it tells shows a CA as being able to transport Troops and does so in FAST TRANSIT. Ok...I will read the conditions for getting to troops at a base and how to load.

page 88. 6.1.3.1
top illustration shows typical merchant.
bottom right, same ship, shows cargo and troop capacity.
not for troops (0)
795 = cargo pts

If it were a transport, type xAP for example, it might have 1050 troop capacity.
This would be max load with strategic movement. It would be reduced for
an amphibious load. amphibious load is used in assaults and into some smaller
ports/bases where either the ship is big (tonnage) or other sundry reasons.

(in reply to ReconTom)

Post #: 10

RE: Loading troops - 9/11/2015 5:39:18 PM

zuluhour

Posts: 5244
Joined: 1/20/2011
From: Maryland
Status: offline

Fast transit is another animal. Due to enemy activity or an express need for speed, small fragments of
units may be transported aboard some ships, APDs are good at this, and will quickly insert them at night, usually.

< Message edited by zuluhour -- 9/11/2015 6:41:57 PM >

(in reply to zuluhour)

Post #: 11

RE: Loading troops - 9/11/2015 5:41:08 PM

jwolf

Posts: 2493
Joined: 12/3/2013
Status: offline

For the Allied player in the Coral Sea scenario, as far as I know you won't be allowed to move any more units to Port Moresby. By design, you have to defend with only the ground troops that start there. What will happen is that the Japanese will take it if they are allowed to land; to defend PM you have to destroy or drive away the Japanese transport TF. All this is specific to that particular scenario.

The anchor symbol shows up at your own ports if you have ships disbanded there. Sometimes you will see the anchor at enemy ports if you get intel that they have ships there.

(in reply to ReconTom)

Post #: 12

RE: Loading troops - 9/11/2015 5:49:32 PM

zuluhour

Posts: 5244
Joined: 1/20/2011
From: Maryland
Status: offline

One of the most used charts I use:

Port Size

9.3.3 (manual)

ps. This is the easy part, I suggest "tenders 101" for future reading. I still read parts of it every
couple of turns.....

< Message edited by zuluhour -- 9/11/2015 6:58:01 PM >

(in reply to jwolf)

Post #: 13

RE: Loading troops - 9/11/2015 6:54:35 PM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline

Haven't read every post in detail but for the chap who asked about CAs being able to transport troops in Fats Transport TFs I can add the following:

This is so only for the Japanese. Any given ship that CAN be placed in a FT TF can transport troops ONLY if it has a troop transport capacity.

The Japanese have far more combatant ships with troop capacities than the Allies.

For the Allies only APDs have a troop capacity for FT TF use.

So the general rule that DDs and CAs can transport troops in FT TFs applies only to the Japanese.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 9/11/2015 7:55:05 PM >

_____________________________

Hans

(in reply to zuluhour)

Post #: 14

RE: Loading troops - 9/12/2015 6:41:01 AM

jmalter

Posts: 1673
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Suribachi
I'm still playing with/trying to figure out the difference and abilities of the commercial ship types (x) vs standard military ship types and what/how they impact load types and offloading - amphib vs port.

Amphibious shipping unload rates increase from xAP to AP to APA, with other specialized types (LCI, LSI) also at the high end, See manual 6.3.3.3. The different rates reflect the ships' various cargo-boom capacities & the number of landing craft they carried, & whether or not they are 'beaching' types. The inherent 'attached' landing craft exist only in the load/unload rate, they have no in-game presence. Don't confuse them w/ the various boats that can be purchased w/ the 'Create Landing Craft' button! Landing Craft can form their own TFs, and many types can be added to an AmphTF, but their presence/absence will not affect the unloading of other ships. However, I've read here that in a 'mixed' AmphTF, high-rate ships can lend their 'attached' landing craft to aid low-rate ships, once their own troops & cargo are ashore.

quote:

Is there a difference between strategic move and move when it comes to�troop prep prior to ship loading?

Troop prep (an LCU's Future Objective) comes into play when unloading (assaulting) from an AmphTF to an enemy base/dot-hex. A TransTF can't unload to an enemy hex/dot. If an AmphTF unloads to a hex/dot that you already own, the amount of prep doesn't matter, it'll unload fine, though you might suffer some desultory accidental losses. Poorly-prepped LCUs will suffer greatly if they unload in the face of enemy opposition, and might likely become combat-ineffective. I never assault w/ less than 90% prep to the target.
You will also please avoid a mistake I once made, when I parked an AmphTF at a destination hex to wait for some additional elements to catch up & merge. Ughfortunately, the hex I chose was a coastal land-hex, & I neglected to change the TF to 'Do not unload' orders. An entire USMC division promptly unloaded into a non-base jungle hex on New Britain, & got ~90% disabled in the process - it took forever to scrape those guys of the beach back onto their ships, then they had to sail back to port, unload & Rest. An entire MarDiv out of the game for nearly 6 months! The AI was too dumb to exploit this debacle, but a human opponent might've immediately Bettied the shipping, leaving the LCU stranded & needing a major op w/ CVE air-cover to extract it.

(in reply to Suribachi)

Post #: 15

RE: Loading troops - 9/12/2015 9:55:53 PM

crsutton

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Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
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Allies are very restricted for fast transports but some armed merchant cruisers have a fairly good load capacity (some have none) and AMCs "can" go into an Allied FT task force. Other than that it is APD and AKV type ships which were all converted from old DDs. You have the option early in the war to convert your old flush deck DDs into either DEs or APDs. While the DEs are useful early in the war, you are going to find that you will need ever APD you can get.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to jmalter)

Post #: 16