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Submarines killing trains in the pacific... - 9/13/2015 7:11:37 AM   
Sheytan


Posts: 863
Joined: 11/28/2006
Status: offline 		http://www.bluehawksofhal-5.org/photogallery/USS%20BarbFlag.jpg

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RE: Submarines killing trains in the pacific... - 9/13/2015 7:24:31 AM   
Rising-Sun


Posts: 2082
Joined: 11/5/2009
From: Clifton Park, NY
Status: offline 		That one lucky shot with torpedoes taken out that train.

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RE: Submarines killing trains in the pacific... - 9/13/2015 7:25:47 AM   
Sheytan


Posts: 863
Joined: 11/28/2006
Status: offline 		Hehe no doubt, it was actually a demo mission if I recall correctly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RisingSun

That one lucky shot with torpedoes taken out that train.



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RE: Submarines killing trains in the pacific... - 9/13/2015 11:18:52 AM   
Denniss

 

Posts: 7902
Joined: 1/10/2002
From: Germany, Hannover (region)
Status: offline 		Reminds me of Operation Petticoat .....

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RE: Submarines killing trains in the pacific... - 9/13/2015 2:18:03 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		American sub claims like American aircraft kills were highly exaggerated. It is probably likely that Barb did not kill half of the ships claimed. When matched with official Japanese records after the war actual sunk ships were probably about half of the actual claims and credit given during the war. I suppose it was good for morale and fostered confidence and aggression to allow sailors to brag a little bit. I doubt that once one of those symbols went up on the conning tower that it would ever come down for any reason.

Just got through re reading about the Guadalcanal campaign and the actual Japanese aircraft losses compared to the claims of the Marine and Navy aviators over Lunga ran to about 1 to 3. Japanese pilots were even worse in inflating their claims. But most of it was not due to a lack of truthfulness, it was just the speed and stress of combat created confusion. The naval battles were the worst with American and Japanese sailors claiming torpedo hits every time they saw a gun flash. Except some of the Japanese torpedoes actually hit and exploded.

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RE: Submarines killing trains in the pacific... - 9/13/2015 6:04:40 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

American sub claims like American aircraft kills were highly exaggerated. It is probably likely that Barb did not kill half of the ships claimed. When matched with official Japanese records after the war actual sunk ships were probably about half of the actual claims and credit given during the war. I suppose it was good for morale and fostered confidence and aggression to allow sailors to brag a little bit. I doubt that once one of those symbols went up on the conning tower that it would ever come down for any reason.

Just got through re reading about the Guadalcanal campaign and the actual Japanese aircraft losses compared to the claims of the Marine and Navy aviators over Lunga ran to about 1 to 3. Japanese pilots were even worse in inflating their claims. But most of it was not due to a lack of truthfulness, it was just the speed and stress of combat created confusion. The naval battles were the worst with American and Japanese sailors claiming torpedo hits every time they saw a gun flash. Except some of the Japanese torpedoes actually hit and exploded.


Normally I'd totally agree with you. But not to long before his death RADM Fluckey became regular visiting author at the Navy Memorial book shop and I got to know him pretty well. I don't think I've ever got to a man that radiated integrity more than Gene Flucky. Nor after reading his accounts and those of others do I think I ever met a Crazier man (doing some of the thing he did while on Barb). So if no other reason that loyalty I'll need to take issue with you. Sorry.

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RE: Submarines killing trains in the pacific... - 9/13/2015 6:40:34 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Reminds me of Operation Petticoat .....


"We sank a truck!"

It appears the train was taken out by a landing party of commandos. Quite the daring mission, considering.

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RE: Submarines killing trains in the pacific... - 9/14/2015 5:13:53 PM   
kaleun

 

Posts: 5145
Joined: 5/29/2002
From: Colorado
Status: offline
quote:

It appears the train was taken out by a landing party of commandos. Quite the daring mission, considering.

Yes, that's what he did. Got yelled at back home for that too.

It's better to ask forgiveness than permission.

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RE: Submarines killing trains in the pacific... - 9/14/2015 7:06:18 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline 		The train raid was done by highly motivated, but regular sailors.
Certainly not any kind of special ops/ commando forces

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Post #: 9
RE: Submarines killing trains in the pacific... - 9/14/2015 10:53:35 PM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline 		IIRC a UBoat in WW1 torpedoed a freighter with a deck cargo of a railroad locomotives, one of which was blown sky high by the torpedo hit...and subsequently landed ON THE UBOAT and sank that ship as well.

Not exactly the anticipated result of "unrestricted submarine warfare".

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Post #: 10
RE: Submarines killing trains in the pacific... - 9/15/2015 7:43:36 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		JANAC approved figures for USS Barb

17 Ships for 96,628 tons.
12th in the list fir ships sunk, 3rd for tonnage.

Barb was fitted out with a 5" Rocket launcher and bombarded Shikuka and other towns on Sakhalin Is and Hokkaido.

As mentioned, the train was taken out by a demolitian squad.

SILENT VICTORY
Clay Blair jnr.

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RE: Submarines killing trains in the pacific... - 9/15/2015 11:47:16 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

American sub claims like American aircraft kills were highly exaggerated. It is probably likely that Barb did not kill half of the ships claimed. When matched with official Japanese records after the war actual sunk ships were probably about half of the actual claims and credit given during the war. I suppose it was good for morale and fostered confidence and aggression to allow sailors to brag a little bit. I doubt that once one of those symbols went up on the conning tower that it would ever come down for any reason.

Just got through re reading about the Guadalcanal campaign and the actual Japanese aircraft losses compared to the claims of the Marine and Navy aviators over Lunga ran to about 1 to 3. Japanese pilots were even worse in inflating their claims. But most of it was not due to a lack of truthfulness, it was just the speed and stress of combat created confusion. The naval battles were the worst with American and Japanese sailors claiming torpedo hits every time they saw a gun flash. Except some of the Japanese torpedoes actually hit and exploded.


Normally I'd totally agree with you. But not to long before his death RADM Fluckey became regular visiting author at the Navy Memorial book shop and I got to know him pretty well. I don't think I've ever got to a man that radiated integrity more than Gene Flucky. Nor after reading his accounts and those of others do I think I ever met a Crazier man (doing some of the thing he did while on Barb). So if no other reason that loyalty I'll need to take issue with you. Sorry.


I recall that after the war even O'Kane's confirmed kills were reduced by about 1/3. After they gained access to Japanese sources.

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RE: Submarines killing trains in the pacific... - 9/16/2015 7:40:49 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		Richard H O'Kane
Wartime Credits 31 ships for 227,800 tons
JANAC credits 24 ships for 93,824 tons

JANAC admit their numbers are not perfect due to lack of japanese records but are the best numbers with the tools available at the time 1943-47.

Again from Silent Victory.


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RE: Submarines killing trains in the pacific... - 9/16/2015 11:42:17 AM   
wegman58

 

Posts: 460
Joined: 12/28/2013
From: Edina, MN (FROM the Bronx)
Status: offline 		I remember this being very comprehensive and in my HS library -
http://www.amazon.com/United-States-Submarine-Operations-World/dp/0870217313/ref=sr_1_22?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1442403585&sr=1-22&keywords=Submarine+operations+in+WWII

But I can critique better now and haven't seen it in almost 40 years.

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Post #: 14
RE: Submarines killing trains in the pacific... - 9/16/2015 6:17:04 PM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		I read it about 30 years ago. It remember it as being very thorough, though a bit dry in places because it covered every patrol of every submarine of any note.

Bill

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RE: Submarines killing trains in the pacific... - 9/18/2015 2:29:12 AM   
RevRick


Posts: 2617
Joined: 9/16/2000
From: Thomasville, GA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wegman58

I remember this being very comprehensive and in my HS library -
http://www.amazon.com/United-States-Submarine-Operations-World/dp/0870217313/ref=sr_1_22?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1442403585&sr=1-22&keywords=Submarine+operations+in+WWII

But I can critique better now and haven't seen it in almost 40 years.


Somewhere in the deep recesses of my stored book boxes, I have the paperback version of the Submarine and Destroyer books. Don't ask me where - this parsonage is about 60 the size of the last, and some of our boxes have been stored full.

There are still some incredible stories about the exploits of small ships in WWII... and being an old tincan sailor - I can understand. Guys (and now girls) who ride cans are a strange bunch!


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