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From Russia with love, STEF78 vs Beekeeper

 
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From Russia with love, STEF78 vs Beekeeper - 9/13/2015 6:49:54 PM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline 		Tuen 54, 25th june 1942

Focus on the 3 decisive sectors

1) Moscow

beekeeper is advancing in strength to the Oka. Tula's line isn't safe anymore



2) Stalingrad

4 of my Cav corps are in the area and I've built 2 rifle corps in the city



3) Rostov

I spend 20 AP to build a rifle corps in Azov, another trapped in the Pocket will reinforce the city. Once the hex SW of the city is controlled by the germans, evacuations cannot continue....



(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 91
RE: From Russia with love, STEF78 vs Beekeeper - 9/13/2015 7:11:02 PM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline 		The only good news is his panzers at stalingrad wont get much fuel until he smashes your pocket at Rostov due to you having the rail lines...then he has to repair them.

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 92
RE: From Russia with love, STEF78 vs Beekeeper - 9/14/2015 10:59:10 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

The only good news is his panzers at stalingrad wont get much fuel until he smashes your pocket at Rostov due to you having the rail lines...then he has to repair them.


true, but Stef has clearly played well up to this point. Having at least 5 Gds Armies indicates an awful lot of victories scored in 1941 and over the winter.

reality is this is (unfortunately) another game spirralling out of control in 1942, since this is only the end of June, Stef somehow needs to avoid major encirclements for another 3 months if he is to survive at all

_____________________________


(in reply to chaos45)
Post #: 93
From Russia with love, STEF78 vs Beekeeper - 9/16/2015 7:48:10 PM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline 		Turn 55, 2nd july 1942

In fact I have 6 guards armies... but it's like butter in front of Beekeeper's Pzds

Moscow

Beekeeper begins to clear the southern bank of the Oka. I build Rifle corps on the clear hexes of the northern bank



Stalingrad

His Pzd moved away and aren't spotted by recon...



Rostov
Azov is strongly held. Next turn I will have 2 rifle corps and a guard div under unique command in the city




(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 94
RE: From Russia with love, STEF78 vs Beekeeper - 9/16/2015 8:49:26 PM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline 		Ehh life isnt all bad that pocket at Rostov will last at least another couple turns lol...Main goal is survive to 1943 and it looks like you might be able to work that

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 95
his tanks - 9/16/2015 8:52:16 PM   
BrianG

 

Posts: 4653
Joined: 3/6/2012
Status: offline 		I bet they head south and cut the access to the lake and hence to the ports.

(in reply to chaos45)
Post #: 96
RE: From Russia with love, STEF78 vs Beekeeper - 9/16/2015 9:14:12 PM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Ehh life isnt all bad that pocket at Rostov will last at least another couple turns

His MCV in Rostov is impressive

(in reply to chaos45)
Post #: 97
RE: his tanks - 9/16/2015 9:16:28 PM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BrianG

I bet they head south and cut the access to the lake and hence to the ports.

Maybe but I already have enough units to secure the area South of Novorosiisk

(in reply to BrianG)
Post #: 98
RE: his tanks - 9/16/2015 9:53:15 PM   
BrianG

 

Posts: 4653
Joined: 3/6/2012
Status: offline 		Fighting down there is lots of fun. Heading to Baku is really far and takes forever for RR to catch up.

That's If one can move thru Rostov.

Which is not your case.

Also you mentioned earlier that if the hex just sw of the port were taken you could not use the port for evacuations?
Did I understand it correctly. Why would that block the port?

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 99
RE: his tanks - 9/17/2015 5:12:14 AM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BrianG

Also you mentioned earlier that if the hex just sw of the port were taken you could not use the port for evacuations?
Did I understand it correctly. Why would that block the port?


You have right understood.

I think it's about ZOC. Maybe Morvael has the technical reason

(in reply to BrianG)
Post #: 100
RE: his tanks - 9/17/2015 7:30:45 AM   
Gabriel B.

 

Posts: 501
Joined: 6/24/2013
Status: offline 		The axis controls the port in TAGANROG .


(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 101
RE: his tanks - 9/17/2015 4:43:56 PM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

The axis controls the port in TAGANROG .

I don't think that it's the reeason.

I was able to evacuate units on turn 53 when Taganrog was already under axis control

(in reply to Gabriel B.)
Post #: 102
RE: his tanks - 9/17/2015 7:50:01 PM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline 		ya i had the same issue with that port in my game....it must have something to do with a hex further south. As I initially evacuated a HQ and 2 divisions from that port. Then the very next turn I couldnt even evacuate one division. Guessing something is triggering the port to stop working for transport, maybe its the capture of the next port to the SW along the coast? or getting hexes on both sides of sea?

IDK would have to run a situation to test and see when the soviets arent allowed to naval transport anymore what triggers it.

< Message edited by chaos45 -- 9/17/2015 8:51:14 PM >

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 103
Game over? - 9/18/2015 10:00:53 PM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline 		Turn 56, 9th july 1942

Is it worth to continue?

Moscow

Oka river is crossed...



Rostov

Perfect gamey trick. A ridiculous hasty attack to weaken the defence, a good result on the second one...





(in reply to chaos45)
Post #: 104
RE: Game over? - 9/18/2015 11:36:51 PM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline 		Was that stack in command range of your army? As you rolled bad on both defenses and super bad on the second defense, as you didnt even get any units committed from your Army HQ......or is that general just that bad?

I dont know all the soviet generals names only a couple of the top ones so not sure what Simonyaks skill levels are.

Cause you barely lost....I mean barely, so a slightly better general or even 1 regiment from the army being sent could have made that a hold. Its like my last turn I had one attack fail at 1.99:1 odds your like really...... lol

As to the game being over IDK, I dont see your fort levels in the pictures and if you have any reserves....you could drop back your frontline in front of moscow and shift all of those units to blob his penetration of the river line.

You basically have 3 more months of summer your going to be on defensive...

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 105
RE: Game over? - 9/19/2015 12:41:49 AM   
BrianG

 

Posts: 4653
Joined: 3/6/2012
Status: offline 		Game is hardly over.

soak off attacks work. They reduce supply and fort levels it seems.

Problem is that very weak first attacks should have no impact but they do.

The soak off attack above though, I would suggest is not a very weak attack.

< Message edited by BrianG -- 9/19/2015 2:44:30 AM >

(in reply to chaos45)
Post #: 106
RE: Game over? - 9/19/2015 1:14:20 AM   
charlie0311

 

Posts: 941
Joined: 12/20/2013
Status: offline 		Nerf bat

(in reply to BrianG)
Post #: 107
RE: Game over? - 9/19/2015 2:20:25 AM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline 		Soak off attacks arent all that effective unless you have alot of follow up forces, its also why the Soviets have to have at least 3 belts of defenses to have any prayer of slowing the panzer ball. As the first wave of attacks smash the frontline then you need the 2-3 defense lines to blunt/slow the follow up units.

The first attack was very weak as it was hasty attack, a hasty attack into a fortified swamp with 2 rifle corps is nothing but a soaking attack as it has no chance to win lol.

If you look at it the soaking attack didnt even reduce the defense by 10%, what hurt him was his general rolled worse and his army supplied no support units to the second defense.

The primary issue I have is the standard failing of the game....if your sending in 1+ Divisions to do nothing but wear down a defender, add some disruption/fatigue and use ammo......well if the enemy is using up ammo on that attack you should pay for that in blood. Thats were the game is beyond ridiculous, He attacked with 31k men and only lost 1-2 companies of casualties lol.

Works for gameplay but is a complete joke compared to historical losses as usual for assaults.


(in reply to charlie0311)
Post #: 108
RE: Game over? - 9/19/2015 6:14:38 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: STEF78

Is it worth to continue?



the only reason to carry on would be if you wanted to let Beekeeper play out for a win (which is a perfectly legitimate approach).

You might, just, be able to fend off an outright defeat, but he will then be ridiculously strong in 1943 and you still recovering. I'm afraid this is another game where the Soviets have clearly done well in 1941 (I am so impressed that you have managed to generate enough wins for 6 Gds Armies) but a combination of the 1.08 modifications and German pacman tactics has led to there being no point carrying on (in the sense of a fun balanced game).

I've reached the stage of being utterly fed up with what has happened as a result of changing key variables. To be honest my current game is going to be my last unless I am really convinced that 1.08.05 actually sorts out play balance.

Its not just the Soviet morale problem (which in my experience takes to July to wreck your army), its that the Germans have become far too strong. No level of losses in winter or the 1942 battles make the slightest difference. I've routed Pzr divisions one turn and seen them back to full strength the turn after.

_____________________________


(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 109
RE: Game over? - 9/19/2015 9:30:24 AM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Was that stack in command range of your army? As you rolled bad on both defenses and super bad on the second defense, as you didnt even get any units committed from your Army HQ......or is that general just that bad?

I dont know all the soviet generals names only a couple of the top ones so not sure what Simonyaks skill levels are.


Simonyak poor initiative but good (russian) inf commander. He was on the hex behind the rifle corps



(in reply to chaos45)
Post #: 110
RE: Game over? - 9/19/2015 9:39:59 AM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

You might, just, be able to fend off an outright defeat, but he will then be ridiculously strong in 1943 and you still recovering. I'm afraid this is another game where the Soviets have clearly done well in 1941 (I am so impressed that you have managed to generate enough wins for 6 Gds Armies) but a combination of the 1.08 modifications and German pacman tactics has led to there being no point carrying on (in the sense of a fun balanced game).

In fact I had 8 guards armies, now 9 but I don't think that fighting forward is the good way.



And the win loss ratio of my armies



(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 111
RE: Game over? - 9/19/2015 1:03:35 PM   
beekeeper

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 2/27/2012
Status: offline 		>A ridiculous hasty attack to weaken the defence
forgot off reserve tank =)

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 112
RE: Game over? - 9/19/2015 1:57:47 PM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: beekeeper

>A ridiculous hasty attack to weaken the defence
forgot off reserve tank =)


I didn't forgot it but, as you know, reserve activation of a full div is all but 100% guaranted.

If you really wanted to do a inf + pzd attack, you would have done it directly, without betting on reverve activation

(in reply to beekeeper)
Post #: 113
RE: Game over? - 9/19/2015 2:23:08 PM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline 		Your general is alright, his morale score is low. Not going to pretend to know all the rolls done in the game but it does seem having Higher morale and higher combat command skill are about the 2 most important skills that I have noticed on commanders. For a critical army I wouldnt have less than a 6/6 morale/infantry score. Again could be wrong but it does seem morale skill also influences battles.

Loki- Also as to game balance.....I would probably have to disagree.

I think the Germans are maybe abit to strong but I also feel both you and Stef didnt build near enough Soviet counterattack units or use them in a correct manner. Not saying my tactics are perfect but after facing Peltons Panzer Ball for all of 1942 I learned a thing or two about what the Soviets need to be successful and when you just need to run.

Both your Soviet reserve forces were much to weak and much to scattered around to be effective. 10 Guard/reg Cav Corps is about the minimum you need to even contest/challenge the panzer ball in a sector if you have less than that you mise well just give up the units encircled and run. An you need to have most of these guard cav/reg cav corps ready to fight by May 1942, preferrably mostly guards. Also you need tank corps formed and training ASAP.

With the rules changes in.04 soviet blob tactics are just letting the Germans win by killing far to many Soviets, the Soviets have to fight back and weaken/beat up the German Panzers. If you are successfully counterattacking you will slowly weaken the Panzers. Yes it takes way to long and they retain alot of combat power even into late 1942....but if you look at my AAR Compared to most other current AARs you will see Peltons panzer units are much more worn down and many have lost their decisive CV edge. By the end of 1942 I was seeing alot of his panzer units only holding 6-7 CV each and after some particularly vicious fighting one was down to 4 CV.

Is playing the Soviets probably abit harder than historical, yes....impossible to win...no.....creates a balanced/tense game where both sides have a real chance to win...probably yes......

The current version the germans are stronger than historical for sure, but I keep hearing the Soviets become unstoppable from 1944 on even with stronger Germans...me and Peltons next turn will Jan 1943 so another year of turns to 1944 and I feel my soviet army is very strong and only getting stronger each week.

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 114
RE: Game over? - 9/19/2015 3:21:28 PM   
beekeeper

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 2/27/2012
Status: offline 		I want do only inf attack =)

and game balance, why you speaking about?

1st poket, 1 lvl fort + 1 inf div and 3 PZ copr go clear field
2nd poket, 1 lvl fort on 2nd line( 1st line destroy germ inf)+ 2 gv div and PZ army go clear field
3 poket, 1 lvl fort + 2 inf div and PZ army go clear

this not balance version, not german skill, it error installation sov div
I just attacked the weak points

ok and last oka, 1 tank brigade def coast

ps why you not build gv corps? 2 gv div+ 1 brigade it best sov unit summer 42


< Message edited by beekeeper -- 9/19/2015 4:26:29 PM >

(in reply to chaos45)
Post #: 115
RE: Game over? - 9/19/2015 3:40:30 PM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline 		Beekeeper, I agree guard rifle corps are strong, but at 20AP each they are expensive and Slow MP wise. Thus when you factor in you will almost always have to move to counterattack German breakthroughs it means they arent as worthwhile as you would think.

As you cant build enough of them to hold a solid line and wherever you build them the Germans will just go around. Its why you need Guard Cav Corps as they usually get a minimum of 16 MP on a bad roll and 22 MP on a good admin roll. Which means they can usually still move even clear one German hex and do a normal attack....guard Rifle corps cant do that. Also the Guard Cav Corps have higher morale than a guard rifle Corps which means if you win some battles/increase morale even more they can clear empty German hexes even easier to coutnerattack due to having 5 higher base morale than a guard rifle corps.

Thats why I keep saying Soviet players need alot of Guard Cavalry corps for summer 1942.

(in reply to beekeeper)
Post #: 116
RE: Game over? - 9/19/2015 4:00:35 PM   
beekeeper

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 2/27/2012
Status: offline 		im usualy grade all cav div in corps in 1st turn winter, you want build new cav div ? it so
expensive, maybe 1-2 div
we speaking about summer 42, Stef builf rifle corps but not build gv corps...
and in build corps rifle brigade give free rifle div

and for conter attack need tank corps + tank army, 1st turn on april you have 500 ap and 60 every turn you can form new tank corps\tank army

< Message edited by beekeeper -- 9/19/2015 5:03:37 PM >

(in reply to chaos45)
Post #: 117
RE: Game over? - 9/19/2015 4:08:45 PM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline 		Yes I built more cav divisions....you dont even get tank corps until April- takes until about June before they are decently trained.

End result is 30 AP of cav divisions ends up getting you more mobile combat power than 30 AP of infantry divisions....

Guard Rifle corps cost = 25 AP worth of units and 20 AP to form = 45 total AP
Guard Cav Corps cost= 30 AP worth of units and 5 AP to form = 35 total AP

You need something to hold the line/fight the Germans until the tank corps are even worth using in June....not to mention even in June most of your Tank corps are still junk 4-6 CV each even with 3 support units attached. If you have guard tank corps they might be 7 CV.

Guard Cav Corps with 3 support units attached are easily 7-9 CV in the Summer of 1942 so much better than tank corps.

You will need the tank corps and tank armies dont get me wrong but I feel you need 15-20 Cav corps for the summer of 1942 in the current version of the game. Also I used my shock armies to command the Cav Corps so it helps them keep higher movement rates due to the admin bonus to the commander. Each of my shock armies in late 1942 is 5 Cav Corps and 1 artillery BDE.

< Message edited by chaos45 -- 9/19/2015 5:17:57 PM >

(in reply to beekeeper)
Post #: 118
RE: Game over? - 9/19/2015 4:24:28 PM   
beekeeper

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 2/27/2012
Status: offline 		Guard Rifle corps cost = 25 AP worth of units and 20 AP to form = 45 total AP
Guard Cav Corps cost= 30 AP worth of units and 5 AP to form = 35 total AP

wrong!

Guard Rifle corps cost = 0 AP worth of units and 20 AP to form = 20 total AP
Guard Cav Corps cost= 30 AP worth of units and 5 AP to form = 35 total AP

=)

and cav corps - it max 22 move point only run and stike, welcome to new poket
tank coprs 50, you can run strike and run
4-5 CV - 6-7 CV - it does not matter if the Germans are place good
and cav rly bad after sept 42, your AP losse, cav corps cant go Berlin =)


(in reply to chaos45)
Post #: 119
RE: Game over? - 9/19/2015 5:29:07 PM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline 		IDK my cav corps seem to be doing fine at attacking Germans in the winter of 1942

Also I lost very few to pockets in 1942....so obviously not as bad you think- 3 total, 1 in march, 1 in june, and 1 in november only due to freak weather that I would have pocketed 5 axis units otherwise.

In my opinion I think you are very wrong on Soviet tactics Beekeeper, ever Soviet player that is going infantry heavy and waiting on tanks is losing their game.

I started my game vs Pelton with the plan of building lots of cavalry corps for 1942 as a counterattack force and it worked almost perfectly. They have higher move than infantry corps and more CV than tank corps...plus they take very few trucks which the soviets are extremely short of in 1942.


(in reply to beekeeper)
Post #: 120
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