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Japanese Uber-weapon ! (spoilers)

 
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Japanese Uber-weapon ! (spoilers) - 3/22/2003 5:48:18 AM   
Spooky


Posts: 816
Joined: 4/1/2002
From: Froggy Land
Status: offline 		Hi

If you are playing a PBEM game as the Japanese player and you need to cripple the US Navy ... it is very easy :(

You just have to use your long range Betty & Nell for night bombing the US ports. In this case, the US night CAP is nearly inefficient (at least before the arrival of the night fighters) and the operational losses not that heavy so if you manage to bomb a port with US CVs in this port - Bingo !!! I just got 4 CV damaged this way (30-40% sys damage) in just 2 raids :eek:

BTW, if Lunga is owned by the Japanese player then he can night bomb Noumea ! Very unpleasant for the US player :rolleyes:

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Post #: 1
Only if US player has his ships disbanded... - 3/22/2003 6:31:28 AM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Spooky
[B]Hi

If you are playing a PBEM game as the Japanese player and you need to cripple the US Navy ... it is very easy :(

You just have to use your long range Betty & Nell for night bombing the US ports. In this case, the US night CAP is nearly inefficient (at least before the arrival of the night fighters) and the operational losses not that heavy so if you manage to bomb a port with US CVs in this port - Bingo !!! I just got 4 CV damaged this way (30-40% sys damage) in just 2 raids :eek:

BTW, if Lunga is owned by the Japanese player then he can night bomb Noumea ! Very unpleasant for the US player :rolleyes: [/B][/QUOTE]

This works if US player has his ships disbanded (i.e. the only
way for port attack to hit ships)... :-)


Leo "Apollo11"

(in reply to Spooky)
Post #: 2
- 3/22/2003 7:00:55 AM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		Fits nicely with using the long ranged patrol aircraft of Japan to keep track of the ships in port with the 2.30 port recon rules :D

(in reply to Spooky)
Post #: 3
- 3/22/2003 10:10:32 AM   
Drongo

 

Posts: 2205
Joined: 7/12/2002
From: Melb. Oztralia
Status: offline 		Posted by Spooky
[QUOTE]You just have to use your long range Betty & Nell for night bombing the US ports. In this case, the US night CAP is nearly inefficient (at least before the arrival of the night fighters) and the operational losses not that heavy so if you manage to bomb a port with US CVs in this port - Bingo !!! I just got 4 CV damaged this way (30-40% sys damage) in just 2 raids [/QUOTE]

It is very nasty stuff.

If the Japanese hold Lunga with a good sized airbase and supplies, they can make Noumea untenable, for a time, as a holding port through night time raids once they have their 100+ Bettys/Nells available.

The way to do it under 2.30 is to strike every few nights (no regular pattern). The non-combat air losses will be sometimes heavy (as can the actual combat losses if the port is packed with FLAK) but the rewards can be enormous. IIRC, another advantage is that the allied player can not avoid it completely by porting ships to other bases as his ship reinforcements arrive there.

If timed with heavy sub operations around Noumea, it can be devastating.

Allied countermeasures are :
Bomb the crap out of Lunga as it is the only base that can effectively conduct the ops (unless Luganville has fallen, in which case you're probably stuffed anyway).
Pack in every AA unit in the South Pacific.
Port your BBs there - they are impervious to anything but superficial bomb damage and their massive AA contributes to the port defence.

Do not rely on nightCAP. They will rarely do anything except abort up to a squadron of bombers. Unfortunately, this goes for the 2 specialist nightfighter squadrons as well.

Ahistorical fun.

_____________________________

Have no fear,
drink more beer.

(in reply to Spooky)
Post #: 4
- 3/22/2003 11:12:13 AM   
Drex

 

Posts: 2524
Joined: 9/13/2000
From: Chico,california
Status: offline 		thanks I needed that!

(in reply to Spooky)
Post #: 5
- 3/22/2003 2:46:02 PM   
Chiteng

 

Posts: 7666
Joined: 2/20/2001
From: Raleigh,nc,usa
Status: offline 		OR you can agree with your opponent that bombing stuff in ports is BS, and simply not do it.

_____________________________

“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”

Voltaire

'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'

French Priest

"Statistic

(in reply to Spooky)
Post #: 6
Night Bombing... - 3/22/2003 11:59:02 PM   
mariovalleemtl


Posts: 360
Joined: 8/9/2000
From: Montreal
Status: offline 		I don't know ( and I really would like to know) if those devasteting long range night bombing are realistic and historical ?!?

I think the ships in port are TO EASY to target at night. During the day it is OK. I experiance it in many games.

What is the oppinion of Matrix's designers about that? :confused:

mario

(in reply to Spooky)
Post #: 7
- 3/23/2003 2:10:24 AM   
Yamamoto

 

Posts: 743
Joined: 11/21/2001
From: Miami, Fl. U.S.A.
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chiteng
[B]OR you can agree with your opponent that bombing stuff in ports is BS, and simply not do it. [/B][/QUOTE]

Why is bombing ships in port BS? It makes perfect sense to be able to bomb ships that are in port. There is already the restriction that you can't torpedo ships in port but bombing them should be OK.

Yamamoto

(in reply to Spooky)
Post #: 8
- 3/23/2003 2:14:21 AM   
Spooky


Posts: 816
Joined: 4/1/2002
From: Froggy Land
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Yamamoto
[B]Why is bombing ships in port BS? It makes perfect sense to be able to bomb ships that are in port. There is already the restriction that you can't torpedo ships in port but bombing them should be OK.

Yamamoto [/B][/QUOTE]

I think Chiteng is talking about night bombing ships in port. As far as I am concerned, I think it should be allowed but with a very low efficiency

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Post #: 9
- 3/23/2003 2:54:06 AM   
Chiteng

 

Posts: 7666
Joined: 2/20/2001
From: Raleigh,nc,usa
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Yamamoto
[B]Why is bombing ships in port BS? It makes perfect sense to be able to bomb ships that are in port. There is already the restriction that you can't torpedo ships in port but bombing them should be OK.

Yamamoto [/B][/QUOTE]

Because they didnt do it for one, at least not with B-17's.
Not until 1945 in Japan's home ports.

_____________________________

“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”

Voltaire

'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'

French Priest

"Statistic

(in reply to Spooky)
Post #: 10
- 3/23/2003 11:40:19 AM   
Luskan

 

Posts: 1897
Joined: 7/11/2002
From: Down Under
Status: offline 		Low efficiency???? Bombing ships at port not done?

I disagree. There are some Italian ships at the bottom of the ocean from 1940/41 that would disagree too - not to mention a little port raid at Pearl Harbour which turned out quite well for the IJN.

The US bombed lots of ports during the war - it was just that the IJN was usually smart enough not to be sitting there when the bombers turned up.

Think about it - your ships are in port, so they are moored/anchored either at the dock or in the chains. Their turbines aren't churning and their engine rooms are cold, not to mention that fact that those sailors aboard are not aboard, since they're visiting whatever wives they have in that particular part of the world etc. A ships CO is off giving a report to his boss, the XO is overseeing refuelling and resupplying as well as any repairs going on.

So to summarise: ships in port are big, fat, not moving (and even if they get the warning of an air raid it takes ages for their boilers to produce enough steam to get them to go anywhere), their crews are as far from battlestations as possible (as in, where they can't hear the GQ call on shore), in the midst of refuelling or having munitions loaded aboard . . . What sort of bomber pilot wouldn't want a target like that? Especially when it is an almost impossible target for a level bomber to hit when out at sea on the move bristling with flak!

_____________________________

With dancing Bananas and Storm Troopers who needs BBs?

(in reply to Spooky)
Post #: 11
... - 3/23/2003 12:55:53 PM   
mariovalleemtl


Posts: 360
Joined: 8/9/2000
From: Montreal
Status: offline 		We talk about NIGHT port bombing only.

(in reply to Spooky)
Post #: 12
- 3/23/2003 4:13:20 PM   
Chiteng

 

Posts: 7666
Joined: 2/20/2001
From: Raleigh,nc,usa
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Luskan
[B]Low efficiency???? Bombing ships at port not done?

I disagree. There are some Italian ships at the bottom of the ocean from 1940/41 that would disagree too - not to mention a little port raid at Pearl Harbour which turned out quite well for the IJN.

The US bombed lots of ports during the war - it was just that the IJN was usually smart enough not to be sitting there when the bombers turned up.

Think about it - your ships are in port, so they are moored/anchored either at the dock or in the chains. Their turbines aren't churning and their engine rooms are cold, not to mention that fact that those sailors aboard are not aboard, since they're visiting whatever wives they have in that particular part of the world etc. A ships CO is off giving a report to his boss, the XO is overseeing refuelling and resupplying as well as any repairs going on.

So to summarise: ships in port are big, fat, not moving (and even if they get the warning of an air raid it takes ages for their boilers to produce enough steam to get them to go anywhere), their crews are as far from battlestations as possible (as in, where they can't hear the GQ call on shore), in the midst of refuelling or having munitions loaded aboard . . . What sort of bomber pilot wouldn't want a target like that? Especially when it is an almost impossible target for a level bomber to hit when out at sea on the move bristling with flak! [/B][/QUOTE]

I said with B-17s

_____________________________

“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”

Voltaire

'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'

French Priest

"Statistic

(in reply to Spooky)
Post #: 13
- 3/23/2003 9:49:12 PM   
Luskan

 

Posts: 1897
Joined: 7/11/2002
From: Down Under
Status: offline 		Sorry - should have read the post more carefully!

However the point still stands. It has to be easier for a b17 to hit a ship in port than it is for a b17 to hit a moving ship (whether or not this actually happened has been the basis of a big discussion/argument once upon a time on these boards).

I'm sort of imagining the 617 Lancasters dropping those big bombs on the Tirpitz at her moorings in Tromso.

_____________________________

With dancing Bananas and Storm Troopers who needs BBs?

(in reply to Spooky)
Post #: 14
- 3/23/2003 10:27:58 PM   
Chiteng

 

Posts: 7666
Joined: 2/20/2001
From: Raleigh,nc,usa
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Luskan
[B]Sorry - should have read the post more carefully!

However the point still stands. It has to be easier for a b17 to hit a ship in port than it is for a b17 to hit a moving ship (whether or not this actually happened has been the basis of a big discussion/argument once upon a time on these boards).

I'm sort of imagining the 617 Lancasters dropping those big bombs on the Tirpitz at her moorings in Tromso. [/B][/QUOTE]

The only account where I have heard of a B-17 hitting a ship
was off Guadalcanal they hit and sank a stationary destroyer.

I have heard of many ships being hit in Japan home waters
in 1945. BY B-29. In fact one account I read stated that the
Shinano was hit several times but her armored flight deck
simply made the bombs bounce.

_____________________________

“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”

Voltaire

'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'

French Priest

"Statistic

(in reply to Spooky)
Post #: 15
- 3/24/2003 2:01:39 AM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		I think the point is that is very difficult to defend a port against a night bombing attack and the results gained are too great. Night bombing was rarely used by either side. Operational losses were high and accuracy low. In our game, that is not the case and it becomes a worthwhile tactic. Needs some tweaking here.

In any computer game it is generally easy to find work arounds to normal and accepted tactics. I usually do not like house rules but I might hint to my opponent that I would refrain from using the tactic if they did the same.

_____________________________

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Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to Spooky)
Post #: 16
- 3/24/2003 6:25:07 AM   
wobbly

 

Posts: 1095
Joined: 10/16/2002
From: Christchurch, New Zealand
Status: offline 		please put me in my place if i am wrong, but I have never had a ship damaged in a port attack while it was docked as part of a TF. I keep my ships in TFs, they still get repaired (although a little less well apparently), they use minimal fuel etc, and the best thing is they now require a Naval attack order to hit - which falls back on the AI to target it. if you have cap up in the day, unescorted bombers are unlikely to attack and at night i have NEVER seen any plane attack any ship - ever.
This tactic all falls down if TF's can be hit by port attacks - I have never seen this though???

(in reply to Spooky)
Post #: 17
Ship Attack in Port - 3/25/2003 8:20:35 AM   
RevRick


Posts: 2617
Joined: 9/16/2000
From: Thomasville, GA
Status: offline 		I have been getting two to three ships a turn torpedoed in Port Moresby, and one or two ships torpedoed in Cairns. And they were all in TF's. I regard this as ahistorical because I don't know of many times when Betty's and Nell's dropped Torpedoes in those ports. But they have done it to me in the last three patches. Scenario 14.

_____________________________

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Post #: 18
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