Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Perhaps so. It is tight for me and some units have to wait. That does not mean that I don't think that I am getting enough forces to defeat Japan. Some air units are not converting, some leaders are not getting replaced. If you should have enough PP to do all that and also buy our every units then why bother with the PP system at all? To me that is the beauty of the PP system. You should never have everything you want. As for the Allied side, I like it and think it works just great. It is more expensive now with the patches but I have learned to economize so it comes out about even in that respect.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Perhaps so. It is tight for me and some units have to wait. That does not mean that I don't think that I am getting enough forces to defeat Japan. Some air units are not converting, some leaders are not getting replaced. If you should have enough PP to do all that and also buy our every units then why bother with the PP system at all? To me that is the beauty of the PP system. You should never have everything you want. As for the Allied side, I like it and think it works just great. It is more expensive now with the patches but I have learned to economize so it comes out about even in that respect.

It's never tight for Japan though. You might be OK with the Allies starvation decisions, but Japan is fat from the beginning. Even the 500 pool versus the 100 gives Japan a head start. It hasn't been mentioned either, but the withdrawal system is also on the Allies. Mess that up a few times, forget a ship or have one damaged, and you can lose a month's PPs pretty quickly.

I never had a lot of trouble playing the AI and going through the DEI. There was more LBA to soften up and naval bombardment cycle times were lower than in CentPac. Loka's game is a CentPac game, and he has division-plus defenses on a lot of islands I can't leave in the rear due to the torpedo magic he described in his posts. My landings need to be 2-3 IDs to not be thrown back on the beach. I need infantry. Combined with 90-day preps it makes a CentPac campaign probably the hardest route there is. I chose it, but I didn't know what I was in for. The AI doesn't put divisions on atolls.

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


Well, having never played Japan I just don't know the situation with their PPs. However, I will say that from my observations there are a hell of a lot of other ways in which the Japanese player can "screw the pooch." And playing Japan "well" is a very difficult thing to pull off. Just saying that I think I still have to upper hand as the Allies. 1942 is hell but for me the most exciting part of the game. Get to early 43 and I am beginning to call the shots. For that reason, I don't worry about Japanese PPs. And, of course, I avoid the Central Pacific Route...

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


If the design team disliked how the HQ system works, they've had plenty of time to change it. A wide range of issues and changes have been made to aspects of the game that weren't performing as they should (eg, air intercept model for large scale combat) and yet nobody has changed the HQ system.

Is it perhaps because it's WAD?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyros

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


If the design team disliked how the HQ system works, they've had plenty of time to change it. A wide range of issues and changes have been made to aspects of the game that weren't performing as they should (eg, air intercept model for large scale combat) and yet nobody has changed the HQ system.

Is it perhaps because it's WAD?

The HQ system is incomplete. It was one of the systems left that way to get the product out. Once released many of the devs moved on to other endeavors and most of the changes were bug fixes and UI enhancements. The HQ system would have been a significant endeavor to further enhance. ANd yes you can find many threads dating back to 09 stating that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Air HQs don't give you a bonus in combat, I don't think that has ever been said...it fives you a bonus of being able to buy your combat divisions out at a 75 percent discount. That is a HUGE advantage in game particularly early when Japan is scraping around for PPs to release all those unused Manchurian units facing the soviets. And that is the center of my argument.

By 43/44, it doesn't matter because and competent player should be kicking Japan's ass...but who wants to spend a year playing someone who is exploiting the game design and patiently wait for the game to finally be on even terms?


But some (many) would argue that this is the ultimate in gamey. These units historically were not available to Japan for any purpose because the Japanese army's fear refusal to release them. For them the Soviet threat was real. The end result hindered their reaction to the Guadalcanal threat. Yet, I have never heard of any Japanese player who does not pull units out of Manchuria to the near limit. If you follow this line of argument then a Japanese player would have a moral and ethical responsibility not to do it because it is gaming the system and the real Japanese never would have done it. To me it seems just as ridiculous as assigning Allied units to HQ.

I hope you see my point here. I don't think my opponents should be restricted in Manchuria and I don't believe in assigning Allied ground units to air HQ to save PP. However, in a game as complex as this for anyone to accuse another of being gamey is always a case of the pot calling the kettle black. I myself hate my opponents use of massed Japanese air attacks in the first year of the war. Basically, he can take any 1-1 attack in the open and turn it into a rout with a massed bombing attack the same turn. But by economizing my PPs have been able to buy out more restricted AA units as a counter. (and AA works very well now) Who is being gamey? Neither. There is just no way to play this game on a fully historical basis. I have a good opponent who listens to me when I complain. However, the choice is his regarding if he changes or not. If he disagrees, I adapt.

Someone who plays the engine to the max to gain an advantage is not a cheater. He is just a different type of gamer than me. That is fine. There are plenty of opponents out there for him.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


Well, having never played Japan I just don't know the situation with their PPs. However, I will say that from my observations there are a hell of a lot of other ways in which the Japanese player can "screw the pooch." And playing Japan "well" is a very difficult thing to pull off. Just saying that I think I still have to upper hand as the Allies. 1942 is hell but for me the most exciting part of the game. Get to early 43 and I am beginning to call the shots. For that reason, I don't worry about Japanese PPs. And, of course, I avoid the Central Pacific Route...

Loka plays both and plays them both at master levels. Playing a pure JFB you can at least rely on him not knowing the details of your upgrades or how many Shermans you get. Loka knows.

The fact he has 11,000 PP to spare at the end of 1943 is perhaps extreme, but he's said he's never been short. We also don't play with border-crossing HRs so he saved there with Manchuria. But so did I with India.

My other, DBB, game is against a player who only posts here infrequently, but he is a master JFB as well. March 1942 and we just went past 3:1 against me, with Bataan and most of China still to go. He came right across CentPac, so I'll have to go back the same way, at least part way.

CentPac is hard, but I still prefer it to the DEI. I like blue water.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

There are a few people getting hot under the collar here, but (as is often the case) this is because of different views of the world. My 10 cents:
1. Computer games don't have rules. They have design features, but anything they let you do is (by definition) within the game
2.Computer games have design flaws. Some are revealed deficiencies (i.e. were not thought of by the developer and only came to light once hundreds of highly intelligent gamers started playing. Some are bad design (i.e. not thought through properly). Some are due to limitations in the scope of the game, and these are usually simplifications that are necessary to keep the game in hand, and some are just bugs (miscoding of the design intent). Whether it is gamey to exploit these depends on the effect, whether you agree to allow it and the style of game you want.
3. The War in the... series are historical games, and I view gaming them to the max as the ultimate oddity. People who complain about mines and torpedoes (from a historical basis) but then use inconsistencies in HQ PP points to get round limitations are being illogical. IMHO if you want to play a pure game, play chess. A pure game. WITx are historical simulation games... I think you should play them with the limitations RL commanders have. However other views are valid:)
4. PP limits are to reflect chaos and unpreparedness (Allies), or (e.g.) Russian threats outside of the game (JPN). There is no logic or real life basis for certain HQ transfers to be much cheaper than others (Air vs Land). Thus I would never do it. Anyone who does it without declaring it is being gamey in a game that is basically historic. Anyone who doesn't do it in a 'pure game' game is stupid. However I would never do it, since WITx are notgood 'pure games'. Far to asymmetric and hard to balance.
5. Anyone who does it had better not come on the forum and complain about the inaccurate model of some obscure weapon on a ship (or something), since they are being very very inconsistent.
6. A game player (as opposed to History player) should be campaigning for a rationalisation of PP costs just as much as a History player, because the expensive option achieves nothing. A history player wants it rationalised to removed to eliminate an ahistorical inconsistency that can cause trouble...

Not sure it helps, but maybe we can agree that no one is 'right' but some views are more or less logical given different views of the game...

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


Then your opinion is misinformed and wrong.

You'd be surprised just how many "exploits" within the game are actually just players without the flexibility to respond to novel circumstances and rely on house rules as a crutch.

The best example is stratosweeps. I'm sure you'd rather just house rule it up so that you don't have to do any hard thinking; for me, I enjoy trying to set up my fighter groups so as to beat the stratosweep. It can be done

quote:

If you feel I am calling him a cheater, that's how you feel. I don't think I have openly said anyone was cheating.

Post #81, you say "Call it what you like. He [Loka] is cheating..."

quote:

By their intent they are cheating...if Lok or you are feeling guilty...perhaps a strong look in the mirror is in order.

Hardly.

After playing with HR's and switching to no HR's, the latter is the future. You should perhaps try it before you judge, but that might be asking a bit much.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rroberson

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


Then your opinion is misinformed and wrong.

You'd be surprised just how many "exploits" within the game are actually just players without the flexibility to respond to novel circumstances and rely on house rules as a crutch.

The best example is stratosweeps. I'm sure you'd rather just house rule it up so that you don't have to do any hard thinking; for me, I enjoy trying to set up my fighter groups so as to beat the stratosweep. It can be done

quote:

If you feel I am calling him a cheater, that's how you feel. I don't think I have openly said anyone was cheating.

Post #81, you say "Call it what you like. He [Loka] is cheating..."

quote:

By their intent they are cheating...if Lok or you are feeling guilty...perhaps a strong look in the mirror is in order.

Hardly.

After playing with HR's and switching to no HR's, the latter is the future. You should perhaps try it before you judge, but that might be asking a bit much.

No. Strato sweeps are the perfect example of broken game design being exploited. It is why people create house rules around them. Same with 4Es pounding naval targets below 10K. A lot of people have been playing this game now for a decade....there is a reason that there are some pretty standard house rules. Not having them breaks the game and then you find yourself playing an ahistorical mess. Now that might be fun for you and yours, but it certainly isn't fun for one hell of a lot of players who are seeking WITPAE game here.

quote:

Morning Air attack on Dili , at 71,115

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 32 NM, estimated altitude 42,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J2M2 Jack x 14
N1K2-J George x 2
Ki-45 KAIc Nick x 2
Ki-84a Frank x 12

Allied aircraft
Spitfire VIII x 21

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M2 Jack: 3 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Spitfire VIII: 5 destroyed

CAP engaged:
802 Ku S-1/A with N1K2-J George (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 20000.
Raid is overhead
5th Sentai with Ki-45 KAIc Nick (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 7000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 7000.
Raid is overhead
S-601 Hikotai with J2M2 Jack (0 airborne, 7 on standby, 4 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 15000 and 37450.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 22 minutes
64th Sentai with Ki-84a Frank (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 5 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 34000 , scrambling fighters between 34000 and 34440.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: rroberson

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


Then your opinion is misinformed and wrong.

You'd be surprised just how many "exploits" within the game are actually just players without the flexibility to respond to novel circumstances and rely on house rules as a crutch.

The best example is stratosweeps. I'm sure you'd rather just house rule it up so that you don't have to do any hard thinking; for me, I enjoy trying to set up my fighter groups so as to beat the stratosweep. It can be done

quote:

If you feel I am calling him a cheater, that's how you feel. I don't think I have openly said anyone was cheating.

Post #81, you say "Call it what you like. He [Loka] is cheating..."

quote:

By their intent they are cheating...if Lok or you are feeling guilty...perhaps a strong look in the mirror is in order.

Hardly.

After playing with HR's and switching to no HR's, the latter is the future. You should perhaps try it before you judge, but that might be asking a bit much.

No. Strato sweeps are the perfect example of broken game design being exploited. It is why people create house rules around them. Same with 4Es pounding naval targets below 10K. A lot of people have been playing this game now for a decade....there is a reason that there are some pretty standard house rules. Not having them breaks the game and then you find yourself playing an ahistorical mess. Now that might be fun for you and yours, but it certainly isn't fun for one hell of a lot of players who are seeking WITPAE game here.

Stratosweeps are not a broken aspect of the engine. People created house rules because they lacked enough understanding of the air model. The dive bonus is a nice bonus, but it is not all powerful - there is more to the air model in this game than the maximum altitude of an aircraft, and you can make that work for you, if you know how.

Keep in mind that I once though that stratosweeps are broken - experience has taught me that they are not.

House rules regarding aircraft altitudes are one of the crutches that were mentioned earlier in this thread - it's a clear indication that some people don't understand anything about the air model beyond the dive bonus.

I am far from the only voice in the wilderness in this respect: it is endemic in the PBEM community to place too much emphasis on altitude and the dive bonus.

If you want an example, here's one from my last turn:

quote:

Morning Air attack on Dili , at 71,115

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 32 NM, estimated altitude 42,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J2M2 Jack x 14
N1K2-J George x 2
Ki-45 KAIc Nick x 2
Ki-84a Frank x 12

Allied aircraft
Spitfire VIII x 21

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M2 Jack: 3 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Spitfire VIII: 5 destroyed

CAP engaged:
802 Ku S-1/A with N1K2-J George (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 20000.
Raid is overhead
5th Sentai with Ki-45 KAIc Nick (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 7000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 7000.
Raid is overhead
S-601 Hikotai with J2M2 Jack (0 airborne, 7 on standby, 4 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 15000 and 37450.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 22 minutes
64th Sentai with Ki-84a Frank (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 5 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 34000 , scrambling fighters between 34000 and 34440.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes

Imagine that: the all powerful stratosweep only broke even! But those Japanese planes were below the max altitude? What sorcery is this?

Don't panic, rroberson, you too can learn to walk, if you first put the crutches aside!

quote:

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: rroberson

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


Then your opinion is misinformed and wrong.

You'd be surprised just how many "exploits" within the game are actually just players without the flexibility to respond to novel circumstances and rely on house rules as a crutch.

The best example is stratosweeps. I'm sure you'd rather just house rule it up so that you don't have to do any hard thinking; for me, I enjoy trying to set up my fighter groups so as to beat the stratosweep. It can be done

quote:

If you feel I am calling him a cheater, that's how you feel. I don't think I have openly said anyone was cheating.

Post #81, you say "Call it what you like. He [Loka] is cheating..."

quote:

By their intent they are cheating...if Lok or you are feeling guilty...perhaps a strong look in the mirror is in order.

Hardly.

After playing with HR's and switching to no HR's, the latter is the future. You should perhaps try it before you judge, but that might be asking a bit much.

No. Strato sweeps are the perfect example of broken game design being exploited. It is why people create house rules around them. Same with 4Es pounding naval targets below 10K. A lot of people have been playing this game now for a decade....there is a reason that there are some pretty standard house rules. Not having them breaks the game and then you find yourself playing an ahistorical mess. Now that might be fun for you and yours, but it certainly isn't fun for one hell of a lot of players who are seeking WITPAE game here.

Stratosweeps are not a broken aspect of the engine. People created house rules because they lacked enough understanding of the air model. The dive bonus is a nice bonus, but it is not all powerful - there is more to the air model in this game than the maximum altitude of an aircraft, and you can make that work for you, if you know how.

Keep in mind that I once though that stratosweeps are broken - experience has taught me that they are not.

House rules regarding aircraft altitudes are one of the crutches that were mentioned earlier in this thread - it's a clear indication that some people don't understand anything about the air model beyond the dive bonus.

I am far from the only voice in the wilderness in this respect: it is endemic in the PBEM community to place too much emphasis on altitude and the dive bonus.

If you want an example, here's one from my last turn:

quote:

Morning Air attack on Dili , at 71,115

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 32 NM, estimated altitude 42,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J2M2 Jack x 14
N1K2-J George x 2
Ki-45 KAIc Nick x 2
Ki-84a Frank x 12

Allied aircraft
Spitfire VIII x 21

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M2 Jack: 3 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Spitfire VIII: 5 destroyed

CAP engaged:
802 Ku S-1/A with N1K2-J George (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 20000.
Raid is overhead
5th Sentai with Ki-45 KAIc Nick (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 7000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 7000.
Raid is overhead
S-601 Hikotai with J2M2 Jack (0 airborne, 7 on standby, 4 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 15000 and 37450.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 22 minutes
64th Sentai with Ki-84a Frank (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 5 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 34000 , scrambling fighters between 34000 and 34440.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes

Imagine that: the all powerful stratosweep only broke even! But those Japanese planes were below the max altitude? What sorcery is this?

Don't panic, rroberson, you too can learn to walk, if you first put the crutches aside!

My problem with this sort of thing is air combat at much above 30k is completely unhistorical. But then I am a history player, and the game does not reflect the real difficulties of flying these aircraft at these altitudes, let alone fighting them. Thus I would HR it. But I HR solely because it is not possible in RL, not because of the effect on the game balance.

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

+1. When it comes to fighter to fighter combat it is better to look at the altitudes as conveying relative advantages and disadvantages rather than little planes actually flying at those altitudes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

my goodness...this threatens to be a gossip column. Don't forget the old adage: "When people quit bitchin about you....you know you are dead".

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: rroberson

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


Then your opinion is misinformed and wrong.

You'd be surprised just how many "exploits" within the game are actually just players without the flexibility to respond to novel circumstances and rely on house rules as a crutch.

The best example is stratosweeps. I'm sure you'd rather just house rule it up so that you don't have to do any hard thinking; for me, I enjoy trying to set up my fighter groups so as to beat the stratosweep. It can be done

quote:

If you feel I am calling him a cheater, that's how you feel. I don't think I have openly said anyone was cheating.

Post #81, you say "Call it what you like. He [Loka] is cheating..."

quote:

By their intent they are cheating...if Lok or you are feeling guilty...perhaps a strong look in the mirror is in order.

Hardly.

After playing with HR's and switching to no HR's, the latter is the future. You should perhaps try it before you judge, but that might be asking a bit much.

No. Strato sweeps are the perfect example of broken game design being exploited. It is why people create house rules around them. Same with 4Es pounding naval targets below 10K. A lot of people have been playing this game now for a decade....there is a reason that there are some pretty standard house rules. Not having them breaks the game and then you find yourself playing an ahistorical mess. Now that might be fun for you and yours, but it certainly isn't fun for one hell of a lot of players who are seeking WITPAE game here.

Stratosweeps are not a broken aspect of the engine. People created house rules because they lacked enough understanding of the air model. The dive bonus is a nice bonus, but it is not all powerful - there is more to the air model in this game than the maximum altitude of an aircraft, and you can make that work for you, if you know how.

Keep in mind that I once though that stratosweeps are broken - experience has taught me that they are not.

House rules regarding aircraft altitudes are one of the crutches that were mentioned earlier in this thread - it's a clear indication that some people don't understand anything about the air model beyond the dive bonus.

I am far from the only voice in the wilderness in this respect: it is endemic in the PBEM community to place too much emphasis on altitude and the dive bonus.

If you want an example, here's one from my last turn:

quote:

Morning Air attack on Dili , at 71,115

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 32 NM, estimated altitude 42,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J2M2 Jack x 14
N1K2-J George x 2
Ki-45 KAIc Nick x 2
Ki-84a Frank x 12

Allied aircraft
Spitfire VIII x 21

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M2 Jack: 3 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Spitfire VIII: 5 destroyed

CAP engaged:
802 Ku S-1/A with N1K2-J George (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 20000.
Raid is overhead
5th Sentai with Ki-45 KAIc Nick (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 7000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 7000.
Raid is overhead
S-601 Hikotai with J2M2 Jack (0 airborne, 7 on standby, 4 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 15000 and 37450.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 22 minutes
64th Sentai with Ki-84a Frank (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 5 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 34000 , scrambling fighters between 34000 and 34440.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes

Imagine that: the all powerful stratosweep only broke even! But those Japanese planes were below the max altitude? What sorcery is this?

Don't panic, rroberson, you too can learn to walk, if you first put the crutches aside!

quote:

ORIGINAL: BJStone

Sigh - here's your sign...

quote:

ORIGINAL: BJStone

Oh no!!!! Tell me you did not just wag you finger and point at me....

In truth, all I can do is...

quote:

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite



My problem with this sort of thing is air combat at much above 30k is completely unhistorical. But then I am a history player, and the game does not reflect the real difficulties of flying these aircraft at these altitudes, let alone fighting them. Thus I would HR it. But I HR solely because it is not possible in RL, not because of the effect on the game balance.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BJStone

Sigh - here's your sign...

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

So far all this thread has done is 1) horrify me with the inventive ways some "players" will come up with to get a leg up on their opponent. 2) It's helped me compile a pretty long list of people that I'll never play against! (Unsurprisingly 2 were already on my "green button list". And there are only 3 names on it).

When I grew up in that little town from Maine that I hail from , there were a couple of small merchants who were known as "sharp". Now some people mean that to be "well dressed". In Maine it meant they would always "take the sharp end of the law". They'd never break the law , but ride "the sharp edge of the law". They would ALWAYS follow the letter of the law , but never the intent. And people who knew them would avoid them like venereal disease.

I haven't thought about such practices for a long, long time. Now they tell me NEVER to play someone without references and a through grasp of that persons ethics (or lack there-of).

I never realized how many ways to "take the edge" of this game existed. Guess I've just been playing with the right people. I've been lucky , and trusting.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BJStone

Bite me. Rrobinson took over a game from someone else and impinged the previous player because he has a different style of game play? That's foul.

Re-read Bill's post (wdolson). Please chill. If you want to play a sim find someone that wants to play a sim. If you want to work the "edge" than find someone that does the same. And if you can't take a bit of a joke (in other words Bill's post to chill with the finger pointing) and see some humor in a high horse for finger pointing then go soak yourself. Apparently we all seem to have some differences in our sense of humor. Go figure.

I've been around for some time too. Your mine's-bigger-than-yours crap about post counts is just that: crap. We all have opinions about this subject. No one asked you to get in the middle and try to make everyone play nice. Sure - maybe I lurk much more than you do but this forum is for all of us - not just those with 13000+ posts.

And if you're insulted then that's on you. You have control over your emotions and thoughts - not me. Nobody in this thread is coming to any type of consensus to what is gamey - we all have different opinions. You and Rroberson should find people who play like you do and enjoy the game. Quit crapping on mind_messing, Lokasenna, and those that play the game differently.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BJStone

Bite me. Rrobinson took over a game from someone else and impinged the previous player because he has a different style of game play? That's foul.

Re-read Bill's post (wdolson). Please chill. If you want to play a sim find someone that wants to play a sim. If you want to work the "edge" than find someone that does the same. And if you can't take a bit of a joke (in other words Bill's post to chill with the finger pointing) and see some humor in a high horse for finger pointing then go soak yourself. Apparently we all seem to have some differences in our sense of humor. Go figure.

I've been around for some time too. Your mine's-bigger-than-yours crap about post counts is just that: crap. We all have opinions about this subject. No one asked you to get in the middle and try to make everyone play nice. Sure - maybe I lurk much more than you do but this forum is for all of us - not just those with 13000+ posts.

And if you're insulted then that's on you. You have control over your emotions and thoughts - not me. Nobody in this thread is coming to any type of consensus to what is gamey - we all have different opinions. You and Rroberson should find people who play like you do and enjoy the game. Quit crapping on mind_messing, Lokasenna, and those that play the game differently.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Now mr "Mind messing" , did you really feel the need for that comment about "learning to play?". Bill has already admonished everyone for their comments. Do you really NEED to throw gasoline (petrol to you) on a dying fire?

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ORIGINAL: rroberson

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ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite



My problem with this sort of thing is air combat at much above 30k is completely unhistorical. But then I am a history player, and the game does not reflect the real difficulties of flying these aircraft at these altitudes, let alone fighting them. Thus I would HR it. But I HR solely because it is not possible in RL, not because of the effect on the game balance.

That was my problem with it until I ran into an opponent who had all his fighters sweeping at max alt while mine couldn't go above 15K or so.

Turn after turn the results were devastating. I finally reached the point where I just wouldn't cap anything he was interested in.

After that I was a true believe of the evils of the stratosweep.

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ORIGINAL: rroberson

quote:

ORIGINAL: BJStone

Bite me. Rrobinson took over a game from someone else and impinged the previous player because he has a different style of game play? That's foul.

Re-read Bill's post (wdolson). Please chill. If you want to play a sim find someone that wants to play a sim. If you want to work the "edge" than find someone that does the same. And if you can't take a bit of a joke (in other words Bill's post to chill with the finger pointing) and see some humor in a high horse for finger pointing then go soak yourself. Apparently we all seem to have some differences in our sense of humor. Go figure.

I've been around for some time too. Your mine's-bigger-than-yours crap about post counts is just that: crap. We all have opinions about this subject. No one asked you to get in the middle and try to make everyone play nice. Sure - maybe I lurk much more than you do but this forum is for all of us - not just those with 13000+ posts.

And if you're insulted then that's on you. You have control over your emotions and thoughts - not me. Nobody in this thread is coming to any type of consensus to what is gamey - we all have different opinions. You and Rroberson should find people who play like you do and enjoy the game. Quit crapping on mind_messing, Lokasenna, and those that play the game differently.

Interesting...you double down on the personal attacks and then act like you are being funny. Hope it works out for you.

As far as impinging on the previous player. I came into this not understanding how anyone could possible enjoy the style of play he was using. He didn't fight his opponent...He took every single unit he could load up and ran. He divided all his transports into single ship units and sent them to off map locations....the list goes on and on and on. The kicker was he dropped the game because he objected the his opponents mass bombing campaign.

Impinging...sure okay...more like questioning the the game style.

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ORIGINAL: rroberson

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ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

So far all this thread has done is 1) horrify me with the inventive ways some "players" will come up with to get a leg up on their opponent. 2) It's helped me compile a pretty long list of people that I'll never play against! (Unsurprisingly 2 were already on my "green button list". And there are only 3 names on it).

When I grew up in that little town from Maine that I hail from , there were a couple of small merchants who were known as "sharp". Now some people mean that to be "well dressed". In Maine it meant they would always "take the sharp end of the law". They'd never break the law , but ride "the sharp edge of the law". They would ALWAYS follow the letter of the law , but never the intent. And people who knew them would avoid them like venereal disease.

I haven't thought about such practices for a long, long time. Now they tell me NEVER to play someone without references and a through grasp of that persons ethics (or lack there-of).

I never realized how many ways to "take the edge" of this game existed. Guess I've just been playing with the right people. I've been lucky , and trusting.

What is this green button list everyone refers to?

And yes this. I think the thing is, I started this seeking information where the fun was from gaming the game rather then playing the opponent. I have actually learned more ways that people game the design which is good and something I can watch for when I am screen future opponents. But it also disappointing as well because I would like to play the game with anyone who up for it. Wargaming is already fairly niche and the few serious wargamers out there are few and far between. Apparently they are fewer then even I had realized.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

So far all this thread has done is 1) horrify me with the inventive ways some "players" will come up with to get a leg up on their opponent. 2) It's helped me compile a pretty long list of people that I'll never play against! (Unsurprisingly 2 were already on my "green button list". And there are only 3 names on it).

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ORIGINAL: BJStone

Sigh - here's your sign...