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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

 
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 9/24/2015 10:41:51 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		GA,

I think you overlooked that this is a Realistic R&D = ON game. 
2.4.8 REALISTIC R&D
This switch controls whether the Japanese player can convert the production of factories which
are producing currently available aircraft into ones researching future aircraft, and vice versa.
If the switch is set to the “on” position, and the Japanese player wishes to change the aircraft
type being produced by a factory, the choice of aircraft to convert to will be restricted in
the following manner: When switching from an aircraft that is currently available and in
production, only other aircraft that are also in production can be selected. Similarly, when that
the Japanese player wishes to change the aircraft type of a factory that is performing research
(see section 13.5), only other aircraft that are also being researched (that is – not yet available
for production) can be selected. This represents the differences between mass production
factories and research and development centers. In reality these are two different things, and
freely swapping between them is not realistic.
If the switch is set to the “off” position, no such restrictions apply. This will allow the Japanese
player a greater ability to switch production of their factories to any aircraft type, regardless of
whether those factories are representing aircraft production or R&D facilities.
The default position for this switch is “on”, as this is a more realistic representation of the
Japanese aircraft industry.


_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 151
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 9/25/2015 12:36:50 AM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		Just a word on fighter research for Japan. You need to counter the Allied fighters in some way shape or manner.

Basically, that can be summed up as this:

Lightning sweeps in mid 42-43.

Jugs sweeps in 43 to 44.

Sometimes it is worth adding five more r&d factories to get a plane 3 more months early. YMMV.







(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 152
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 9/25/2015 1:52:40 AM   
el lobo


Posts: 825
Joined: 7/20/2013
From: Khon Kaen, Thailand (orig: Sacramento, CA)
Status: offline
Grasshopper reporting for duty.

Welcome Mike. I thought the title of this AAR alone would keep you away.

GetAssista, you are absolutely correct. I am indeed honored.

Many thanks for all of you input but you will all have to excuse me for a few days as it is a lot to digest. I can see that I need to modify my a/c production SS straight-away and I already have some questions.

But here is something for you guys to contemplate. The screen-shot at the bottom is my convoys at Fusan on 3/8/42 after I rearranged the convoy system as per Pax's suggestions. Some of them have been loading and some newly arrived as you can see. I think the numbers at Fusan and PA on 3/11/42 says it all. We have not yet to draw from Singers but as it is many hexes away it probably needs some more time.

I have been trying to track the round-trip time of the convoys but it is too inconsistent but some of them are turning around in four days. My total resource capacity is 93139 and oil is 78500 (I don't know how that little 1250 tanker snuck in there but she will be used elsewhere.) Mike, your comment about watching the oil at PA is noted.

The important thing is that my resources on the HI have stopped falling. I am down to 1.63 M, twenty days. I have been working on my convoys from Hokkaido and Sakhalin since day two but I really got behind the power-curve there. I think it is OK now but I will keep tweaking.





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.

(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 153
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 9/25/2015 3:13:59 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		Well, as I read your numbers, your are clearly pulling from Shanghai. HK to Shanghai is tough as there is no direct RR nor are the roads all that good.
Unless you are unloading there, and I would use Cam Ranh or Hanoi or Shanghai to unload, you shouldn't pile up much as the LI/HI and resources are fairly balanced in the area.
If you own the RR through to Saigon, you should start seeing the Resources pull all the way from there soon. Fusan is clearly acting as a sink now.

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to el lobo)
Post #: 154
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 9/25/2015 6:44:16 AM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
GA,
I think you overlooked that this is a Realistic R&D = ON game.

No, why? There are 77 R&D factories at start in stock scenario 1 so quite a lot of research infrastructure is available to pursue a lot of planes at once. Not as many as starting settings imply of course. And realistic R&D only means that you can't switch factories from production to R&D, so you can't get more R&D factories and with time will get fewer as some will switch to production.

Which by the way means that switching should be done carefully as there will be no turning back, and for mid-war planes it's better to have one production factory of desired size, with size probably set already at research phase. OTOH late war planes, especially fighters, should have many factories, distributed into different cities to make production less vulnerable to bombing.

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 155
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 9/25/2015 11:36:36 AM   
el lobo


Posts: 825
Joined: 7/20/2013
From: Khon Kaen, Thailand (orig: Sacramento, CA)
Status: offline 		OK, first question re a/c R&D. (Date 3/12/42)

I am going through the Zero line via the A6M2-N Rufe, (A6M5, A6M5b, A6M5c, A6M8.) I an not going to produce the Rufe but I have 5x30 R&D factories for it. The Rufe is available 4/1/42 so obviously these R&D factories will not accelerate their availability. They were not intended to that. They are intended to fully repair which they will be before 4/1/42. Two already have and the other three are close.

As I understand it, I can move them up the model line all in the same turn with-out damage to the factories. So the question is, do I move them up the line one at a time to R&D the next model and then wait until just before that model goes into production to move to the next model etc., or, should I just go directly to the A6M8 and hope to really accelerate that model? Or a combination. Either way I will not let them go into production until they get to the M8.

As a side note to that question, if you accelerate the first model in the line, does that accelerate the whole line or just that model?

I will have the 500 engines in about six weeks.

Thanks.


_____________________________

El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.

(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 156
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 9/25/2015 1:16:52 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		You only move the model you research by one month, no other models are impacted.

Going straight for the A6M8 is your choice and depends upon why are you going for it.

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to el lobo)
Post #: 157
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 9/25/2015 5:01:46 PM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: el lobo
As I understand it, I can move them up the model line all in the same turn with-out damage to the factories.

No need for all in the same turn. Switch each exactly on the turn it fully repairs individually, research for the desired model will start right away. Also, think carefully which later model in the chain you would research. Later is usually better, but it also comes later. You can get stuck through some time with A6M2 which gradually loses its shine. With 5 factories and engine bonus for Ha-33 (harder to get than for Ha-35 early) you will get A6M8 somewhere late spring 1943. Or you can get A6M5 somewhere late summer 1942, it is a good plane, and later ones are questionably better trading range for protection hence having more trouble with escorting your longer CV attacks, not to mention Netties. On the other hand later A6Ms are definintely better on CAP. Your call

I've seen some guys ditching A6M research entirely after A6M5 is available and switching to Sam acceleration

< Message edited by GetAssista -- 9/25/2015 7:24:37 PM >

(in reply to el lobo)
Post #: 158
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 9/26/2015 12:08:43 AM   
el lobo


Posts: 825
Joined: 7/20/2013
From: Khon Kaen, Thailand (orig: Sacramento, CA)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

You only move the model you research by one month, no other models are impacted.

Going straight for the A6M8 is your choice and depends upon why are you going for it.

Sorry for not making my question more clear but this was an R&D question and I agree with your point about the M8. I should have left the “For example” I originally had at the top of the post. I think all of us newbies start-off with a huge wish-list but then the realities of production set-in. The pruning shears are out.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: el lobo
As I understand it, I can move them up the model line all in the same turn with-out damage to the factories.

No need for all in the same turn. Switch each exactly on the turn it fully repairs individually, research for the desired model will start right away. Also, think carefully which later model in the chain you would research. Later is usually better, but it also comes later. You can get stuck through some time with A6M2 which gradually loses its shine. With 5 factories and engine bonus for Ha-33 (harder to get than for Ha-35 early) you will get A6M8 somewhere late spring 1943. Or you can get A6M5 somewhere late summer 1942, it is a good plane, and later ones are questionably better trading range for protection hence having more trouble with escorting your longer CV attacks, not to mention Netties. On the other hand later A6Ms are definintely better on CAP. Your call

I've seen some guys ditching A6M research entirely after A6M5 is available and switching to Sam acceleration

Poor wording on my part. I meant that, as I understand it, you can move a factory up the entire model line the same turn, going one model at a time, not skipping one, with-out factory damage.

I am doing as you say, moving them as soon as they repair. I also have in my notes about the Sam and will probably go that route.

This whole question is kind of non-sequitur considering all I have to do, but these factories are blue and I want to make sure I do the right thing with them before they attempt to go into production.

Thanks all.

_____________________________

El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.

(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 159
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 9/26/2015 1:58:43 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: el lobo
I think all of us newbies start-off with a huge wish-list but then the realities of production set-in. The pruning shears are out.


Ha! EVERYONE starts out wishing for the world!

Then you have to figure out what your plan is, and in particular when will you cede initiative. This is prolly the most critical decision because it impacts model choices, in particular fighters.


Example: While I have the initiative, I'm forced to fly unarmored Oscar fighters because I need the range for a long time ... way past getting Tojo.

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 9/26/2015 3:00:30 AM >

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to el lobo)
Post #: 160
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 9/26/2015 6:05:58 AM   
FeurerKrieg


Posts: 3397
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Denver, CO
Status: offline
quote:

Poor wording on my part. I meant that, as I understand it, you can move a factory up the entire model line the same turn, going one model at a time, not skipping one, with-out factory damage.


Correct.

It might have already been said here, but you should look at each production line. Then find the model you want to end up with, put the R&D factory on the first model in the line (that isn't already available) then once the factory hits 30, switch it - one model at time - to the model you want to R&D. Factories repair faster if they are R&Ding planes that are available earlier.

Doing this, you can really pull forward the A6M8, Ki-43-IV and Ki-100 quite a lot. Other lines are shorter and there is no near term model to research so you have to just make do.

I have plenty of thoughts on this in my own AAR, but one thing that you might consider (apologies if I missed it already here) is skipping the Kawasaki Tony's altogether. You can go straight to the Ki-100 and then you can switch that Kawasaki engine factory to another model so you can get the Engine bonus going on your R&D that much earlier.

On the A6M line, I think the M8 makes sense if you take out the US carriers early, because you can get the M8 before the US can bring the Essex's out to play. However, if the US doesn't lose carriers early, it is probably better to go for an M5 model so you can get them on your carriers ASAP.


< Message edited by Feurer Krieg -- 9/26/2015 7:07:21 AM >

_____________________________


Upper portion used with permission of www.subart.net, copyright John Meeks

(in reply to el lobo)
Post #: 161
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 9/26/2015 6:07:24 AM   
FeurerKrieg


Posts: 3397
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Denver, CO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

quote:

ORIGINAL: el lobo
I think all of us newbies start-off with a huge wish-list but then the realities of production set-in. The pruning shears are out.


Ha! EVERYONE starts out wishing for the world!

Then you have to figure out what your plan is, and in particular when will you cede initiative. This is prolly the most critical decision because it impacts model choices, in particular fighters.


Example: While I have the initiative, I'm forced to fly unarmored Oscar fighters because I need the range for a long time ... way past getting Tojo.



You just need to make those Allies come to you, Pax! Then Tojo will be your friend. :)

_____________________________


Upper portion used with permission of www.subart.net, copyright John Meeks

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 162
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 9/26/2015 8:29:16 AM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg
You can go straight to the Ki-100 and then you can switch that Kawasaki engine factory to another model so you can get the Engine bonus going on your R&D that much earlier.

That's the way I did it in my current game. I don't produce Kawasaki engines at all, switching the factories to Ha-33 from start and planning to switch Ki-61a factories to K-100-I as soon as them repair.
quote:

You just need to make those Allies come to you, Pax! Then Tojo will be your friend. :)

But then El Lobo is planning to spank the allies and win. He has to go forward

< Message edited by GetAssista -- 9/26/2015 9:31:30 AM >

(in reply to FeurerKrieg)
Post #: 163
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 9/26/2015 8:59:10 AM   
el lobo


Posts: 825
Joined: 7/20/2013
From: Khon Kaen, Thailand (orig: Sacramento, CA)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg

I have plenty of thoughts on this in my own AAR, but one thing that you might consider (apologies if I missed it already here) is skipping the Kawasaki Tony's altogether. You can go straight to the Ki-100 and then you can switch that Kawasaki engine factory to another model so you can get the Engine bonus going on your R&D that much earlier.

Welcome and thanks Feurer Krieg. Another AAR on my list.

A technical R&D question if you do not mind concerning the engine bonus.

If you started R&Ding the Kawasaki Toni line as you suggested and once the factories are repaired on the first Ki-61 (no production), and you then moved the R&D factories to the Ki-100, would the engine bonus for the 100 come from the Kawasaki engine or the Mitsubishi engine? I ask because none of the a/c on my short(er) list are using the Kawasaki engine, (so far, subject to change).


_____________________________

El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.

(in reply to FeurerKrieg)
Post #: 164
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 9/26/2015 9:14:53 AM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: el lobo
would the engine bonus for the 100 come from the Kawasaki engine or the Mitsubishi engine?
Engine bonus comes from the engine that the researched airframe uses. So Ha-33 it is for Ki-100

(in reply to el lobo)
Post #: 165
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 9/26/2015 10:14:32 AM   
el lobo


Posts: 825
Joined: 7/20/2013
From: Khon Kaen, Thailand (orig: Sacramento, CA)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: el lobo
would the engine bonus for the 100 come from the Kawasaki engine or the Mitsubishi engine?
Engine bonus comes from the engine that the researched airframe uses. So Ha-33 it is for Ki-100

Thanks.

OK, one more and then I will try and stop asking these silly, nit-picky questions.

If I am R&Ding more than one a/c, does each one need 500 engines for the bonus or will 500 engines work for all? Say I am R&Ding three a/c with the same engine, will 500 work for all or will I need 1500? Fifteen-hundred makes more sense but I am the gamey one.


_____________________________

El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.

(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 166
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 9/26/2015 10:26:12 AM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline 		When R&D point is generated by fully repaired R&D factory, a check is made if engine pool is >=500. If yes, 1 more bonus point is generated and 1 engine from pool is used. So you need to maintain pool >500 for all the planes to get bonus. Note that it can be costly because if 30 size factories, then each fully repaired factory consumes one engine each day.

(in reply to el lobo)
Post #: 167
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 9/26/2015 10:56:42 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		500 works for all. Just remember that for each additional RnD point generated, an engine is consumed. So if you have 4x30 A6M and 4x30 Oscar, then potentially 8 Ha-35 engines will be consumed each day for RnD. That will be in addition to the Ha-35 engines you are using to support production of aircraft using Ha-35 engines. So, if you have 120xA6M2 and 240xKi-43 in production, those require potentially 12 Ha-35 engines per day, so in total you would need potentially 20 Ha-35 engines per day or Ha-35 engines factories of 600 to keep pace. That is a large investment as you only start with 180 x Ha-35.


All things to consider and why a plan is very critical.

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 168
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 9/26/2015 5:46:01 PM   
FeurerKrieg


Posts: 3397
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Denver, CO
Status: offline 		You already got the answers on the engines, so I'll just agree and add that one nice thing is that you can be ramping up engine production while waiting for those R&D factories to repair. I realize you aren't at the beginning anymore, but if you play another game it is good to figure that stuff out in the first few turns so you know what to switch the Kawasaki engine to. With two factories repairing, you can be adding 60 a month or two engines per day of production. Assuming you can handle the supplies to do it of course.

< Message edited by Feurer Krieg -- 9/26/2015 6:47:06 PM >

_____________________________


Upper portion used with permission of www.subart.net, copyright John Meeks

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 169
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 9/26/2015 5:49:30 PM   
FeurerKrieg


Posts: 3397
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Denver, CO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

When R&D point is generated by fully repaired R&D factory, a check is made if engine pool is >=500. If yes, 1 more bonus point is generated and 1 engine from pool is used. So you need to maintain pool >500 for all the planes to get bonus. Note that it can be costly because if 30 size factories, then each fully repaired factory consumes one engine each day.


Also, I think this check occurs after production and then also one factory at a time. I mention this, because if you are at say 503 in the pool, but you have 6 R&D factories that need the engine, you will get 9 R&D points that turn (6 for the factories, and then 3 bonus). Just saying it isn't all or none. If you are still ramping engine factories on those turn that you happen to get the bonus engine produced it will give you one more R&D point.

_____________________________


Upper portion used with permission of www.subart.net, copyright John Meeks

(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 170
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 9/27/2015 1:19:46 PM   
el lobo


Posts: 825
Joined: 7/20/2013
From: Khon Kaen, Thailand (orig: Sacramento, CA)
Status: offline 		Thanks to all of you for your answers. You guys are a talking encyclopedia.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Aircraft:

This game is PDU ON and Realistic R&D ON.
What these means carefully and focus.
Have a very clear plan.

PDU ON means that you don't have to worry/wait until 1945 to upgrade those Nate groups, you can move them earlier and to different models. There are some limits though, so tracker is your friend. Particularly for Fighters, you want to figure out your model progression for each group. The fewer models the better as that means more focused research which means you get the models earlier.

Model selection: Key here is to realize that most late war fighter models are defensive. While you have the initiative you need offensive fighters. Difference? Range. You cannot be on the offensive with a range 5 fighter. You need range 10 (Helen) minimum, better more for the Netties. Short list of fighter that meet that and they are mostly unarmored, low DUR, and slow. That means high losses, so more groups have to be assigned training. Right?

Now that you have a plan for your model progression for each group, you can sum those all up and see what you need to build. Now take your RnD factories and assign to the models, you can now see WHEN you will get those models into production. Fiddle/adjust until you like the timing. It won't be perfect because of course you want all of them NOW.

Pax, pardon me for being a little dense here but I am trying to work through your suggestion.

Starting with Army fighters. My short list is the Oscar of course for offensive and Tojo for defensive early and later war. Later war, the Ki-83 which can be offensive, Ki-84 Frank, Ki-94, and the Tony 100 all of which would be defensive. That makes it easy for engine production for the early war.

Here is where I am getting hung-up. Are we looking for what we are going to produce, production numbers, or both?

I have some raw numbers but I need to make some assumptions before attempting to transform them to monthly production.

Presently I have nineteen Nate units with a total of 492 planes. I have nine Oscar units with a total of 311 planes. One Tojo unit with twelve planes.

Delayed, I have thirty-five Nate units with a total of 522 planes, thirty-three Oscar units with a total of 688 planes.
Fifteen Tony 61s, etc.

I don't know what Tracker is tracking but it does not agree with the game as far as the Nate up-grades. It looks like the Nates can be up-graded to any Army fighter. I went through all of the Nate units and their up-grades all look like the screen-shot below.

A push in the right direction would be appreciated before I continue and everybody's comments are welcome.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 171
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 9/27/2015 4:04:14 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: el lobo


Starting with Army fighters. My short list is the Oscar of course for offensive and Tojo for defensive early and later war. Later war, the Ki-83 which can be offensive, Ki-84 Frank, Ki-94, and the Tony 100 all of which would be defensive. That makes it easy for engine production for the early war.


Frank, with DT, can get to 10 hexes which means it can be offensive.

That would give you Oscar, frank, ki-83 for offensive. Now, how offensive are you going to be in '45 which is about the earliest you can get the Ki-83? I'm generally thinking counter punch for that model, so then I've got to decide how bad I want it.

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 9/28/2015 4:47:55 AM >

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to el lobo)
Post #: 172
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 9/27/2015 4:49:55 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: el lobo
Pax, pardon me for being a little dense here but I am trying to work through your suggestion.

Hardly dense guy. I've been through this just a few times, that's all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: el lobo
Here is where I am getting hung-up. Are we looking for what we are going to produce, production numbers, or both?

Since this is realistic RnD, it means you have to plan both. This definitely complicates your life AND greatly increases the supply consumption if you aren¡¦t careful. In particular, my suggestion to RnD only a few models becomes more important to conserve supply.


quote:

ORIGINAL: el lobo
I have some raw numbers but I need to make some assumptions before attempting to transform them to monthly production.

Presently I have nineteen Nate units with a total of 492 planes. I have nine Oscar units with a total of 311 planes. One Tojo unit with twelve planes.
Delayed, I have thirty-five Nate units with a total of 522 planes, thirty-three Oscar units with a total of 688 planes.
Fifteen Tony 61s, etc.
I don't know what Tracker is tracking but it does not agree with the game as far as the Nate up-grades. It looks like the Nates can be up-graded to any Army fighter. I went through all of the Nate units and their up-grades all look like the screen-shot below.

Can confirm your thoughts here.
With PDU ON, fighter groups can upgrade to any fighter model. They can also upgrade to NF or FB sometimes for a PP cost ¡K but this is unit by unit and often unlocked by upgrading to a specific model first. When you hover on a group model in Tracker you should get a pop-up with a list of all models the group can upgrade to. They appear differently if they are free or PP cost to upgrade. Often the list is quite long.

First, unless you want to fly a model, don't build it. The groups will arrive in any case. So, unless you like flying Nates, don¡¦t build any.
Second, plan out your general war strategy. Crucial decision: when do you think you will cede initiative? 6/43? 3/44? Big difference as after that point you will need offensive fighters for counter punch and you will need a LOT more defensive fighters. Historically, Japan never made this decision until mid-45 which is why Oscar/A6M were made the entire war in vast numbers. Think this through.
Now, plan out your offensive fighters based upon your initiative decision. For discussion purposes, let¡¦s say that will be 9/43. (Quarter is good enough, don¡¦t have to get to the month or day here. ƒº ) You can get an RnD estimator or build your own. With that you would see with some pretty serious effort you can get the first Frank model in mid 43. Now, is it worth that effort to support your last 3 months of initiative? You have to decide this, I¡¦m not playing. In any case it means you are going to fly a lot of Oscar until then right? So clearly Oscar wants to be a focus. Good news is that it is a relatively cheap one and fast as factories will repair quickly. You are Q1Y42 now. 6x30 RnD will move an Oscar model 1 month forward every 17 days or so. The IIb and IV models are the key ones ¡K when you look at them you will see why. Do the same analysis for the IJN offensive fighters.

Now look at the defensive models. This is harder as there are SO many. Figure out what you want, and then choose just ONE model type to RnD. Ex: Tojo and Tony are pretty much inter-changeable. I'm not going to get caught up in minor things here, I'm talking the big concept. They are 370 mph, armored, good climbers with moderate guns. Remember, slow is relative to what you are fighting. Anytime you are >70 mph slower than the opposition a BIG malus is assigned to you. In early 43 that means as long as you are above 350, you are safe. But by ¡¦44 you need to be above 370 and by ¡¦45 above 400. Also 2E fighters have a malus against 1E fighters ¡K anyway, back to the Tojo/Tony. Look at when you will need these in quantity (we are saying 9/43). You choose Tony because you like the model progression late war compared to Tojo early war and you like the 2x20mm CL Ho5 cannons which have some good hitting power. Now, will you build Tojo n this plan? Sure. Absolutely, but you are NOT planning to expend supply to advance it. When it arrive 9/42 you will build it and convert some groups to it with defensive posture. That is what the plan is all about. Then you may decide on the Ki-94 (Frank II) model for your last defensive because you like the 1E/+440 mph speed. Again, do the same for IJN.

quote:

ORIGINAL: el lobo
A push in the right direction would be appreciated before I continue and everybody's comments are welcome.

Hopefully, this is what you were looking for.
Good Luck!!!


< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 9/27/2015 5:52:47 PM >

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 173
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 9/28/2015 10:01:00 AM   
el lobo


Posts: 825
Joined: 7/20/2013
From: Khon Kaen, Thailand (orig: Sacramento, CA)
Status: offline 		Perfect, thank you. This stuff is invaluable.

_____________________________

El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 174
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 9/28/2015 1:32:02 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		Thanks, sorry to say, but this is all just basics. I'm not that good. You want real strategy read some of Nemo's old AAR's ... or PzB's with AndyMac. Those guys had strategy.

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Pax

(in reply to el lobo)
Post #: 175
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 9/29/2015 2:07:00 AM   
el lobo


Posts: 825
Joined: 7/20/2013
From: Khon Kaen, Thailand (orig: Sacramento, CA)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I'm not that good. You want real strategy read ...

Well I am probably one of the least qualified on this forum to comment about that (hopefully Rio is THE least ) but when I said invaluable, it was not just a platitude. You have pulled my bacon out of the fire several times.

For example, I set-up the “Pax Magic Highway” but if you had not set me straight about fuel and resources there was a slim chance of it WAD. I have read every thing I can find re R&D but until you and the others chimed it, mine was a mess. I had thought that the Oscar was an “old” a/c to be used like the Nate and Claude until something better came along. Now I see it in a whole new light. I have increased production (and engines), redeployed units, and just converted a Nate unit.

So there.

Now if you will excuse me, I think I have a war to fight. *peaking around the corner at the next screen* Yep, it's still there.

See you in a bit mate.


_____________________________

El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 176
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 9/29/2015 3:41:16 AM   
FeurerKrieg


Posts: 3397
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Denver, CO
Status: offline 		Oscar do quite well for quite a long time. Plus there is the challenge of upgrading units even when you have the new frames. Sometimes you don't want to take a high experienced unit off the line for a few days to upgrade it's frames, so you let those vets keep flying in Oscar and they still wipe the floor with a lot of enemy planes.

Build some Nicks too. I've had great success with them against enemy bombers in 42. You can also try putting 1E fighters at 20-25k, with some Nicks up a bit higher. If the Nicks get the dive with their extra guns they can do well against enemy 1E fighters, whereas Oscars have a hard time getting outright kills with their MGs.

< Message edited by Feurer Krieg -- 9/29/2015 4:42:14 AM >

_____________________________


Upper portion used with permission of www.subart.net, copyright John Meeks

(in reply to el lobo)
Post #: 177
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 9/29/2015 9:58:02 AM   
el lobo


Posts: 825
Joined: 7/20/2013
From: Khon Kaen, Thailand (orig: Sacramento, CA)
Status: offline 		Mar 9 – 15, 1942, Turn ninety-three - ninety-nine

Had a strange thing happen with subs. For the Mar eighth turn I was going through Tracker and it shows a sub sunk by 250 Kg GP bomb. Humm, I do not remember that in the CR. I looked back and it was not mentioned in the CR. I checked the Intelligence screen and it showed not only the SS Sculpin sunk as stated, but the SS Nautilus sunk by unknown.

I checked the Combat events ad it showed, Ki-51 Sonia attacking an Allied SS at 114,64
:::::::: a Sargo class SS is reported HIT

Good job Sonia but where did you get that 250 Kg bomb?

They both still show as sunk but who knows?

In the P.I.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Japanese forces CAPTURE Batangas !!!
Japanese forces CAPTURE Roxas !!!
Japanese forces CAPTURE Clark Field !!!

The last two units on Malaya proper. Still have enemy units at Georgetown.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 51,77 (near Kota Bharu)

Japanese Deliberate attack
Allied ground losses:
Units destroyed 2

Near Burma
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Japanese forces CAPTURE Port Blair !!! un-opposed

On Java
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Japanese forces CAPTURE Batavia !!! – Finally! All this fighting and only one HI damaged.
Japanese forces CAPTURE Semarang !!!

In China
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Japanese forces CAPTURE Wuchow !!!

China is looking pretty good. Everything is clear east of the Hankow – Sian line except for some stubborn little units. Every thing around and south-east of Changsha is clear. Kanhsien will fall un-opposed next turn.

He split his forces coming out of Sian and I was able to get between them. The southern ones will probably make it to Chungking. I have forces moving north out of Ichang and Hankow, ~2200 av which will move to the south of Chungking, “through Patung” as someone famous once said.





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.

(in reply to FeurerKrieg)
Post #: 178
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 9/29/2015 10:05:22 AM   
el lobo


Posts: 825
Joined: 7/20/2013
From: Khon Kaen, Thailand (orig: Sacramento, CA)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg

Oscar do quite well for quite a long time. Plus there is the challenge of upgrading units even when you have the new frames. Sometimes you don't want to take a high experienced unit off the line for a few days to upgrade it's frames, so you let those vets keep flying in Oscar and they still wipe the floor with a lot of enemy planes.

Build some Nicks too. I've had great success with them against enemy bombers in 42. You can also try putting 1E fighters at 20-25k, with some Nicks up a bit higher. If the Nicks get the dive with their extra guns they can do well against enemy 1E fighters, whereas Oscars have a hard time getting outright kills with their MGs.

Thanks for the words of encouragement and the tips. I'm liking this plane more and more.

_____________________________

El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.

(in reply to FeurerKrieg)
Post #: 179
RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and... - 9/29/2015 10:59:35 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: el lobo

Mar 9 – 15, 1942, Turn ninety-three - ninety-nine

Had a strange thing happen with subs. For the Mar eighth turn I was going through Tracker and it shows a sub sunk by 250 Kg GP bomb. Humm, I do not remember that in the CR. I looked back and it was not mentioned in the CR. I checked the Intelligence screen and it showed not only the SS Sculpin sunk as stated, but the SS Nautilus sunk by unknown.

I checked the Combat events ad it showed, Ki-51 Sonia attacking an Allied SS at 114,64
:::::::: a Sargo class SS is reported HIT

Good job Sonia but where did you get that 250 Kg bomb?

They both still show as sunk but who knows?


It might have been hit in a previous turn by a different AC with a 250kg bomb ... or there is an error in the message. But, hits from NavSearch don't show in the combat reports. I always check my ship list in game sort on float damage so I can quickly spot any new ships in trouble. Pretty much every turn find one ...

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Pax

(in reply to el lobo)
Post #: 180
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