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Max range & air attack arc - 10/2/2015 8:36:55 AM   
caldy

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 8/20/2010
Status: offline
Today i found a bug in conduct air attack in Witpae.
Yesterday 10/19/41 order at Kanoya-Ku K-1 based at Bangkok with yours G4M2 a mission Naval Attack with max range of 9.
During the resolution of battle this group attack a convoy arrived at Singapore (17 range!!!).
Checking the group at 10/20/41 i see the max range changed to 21!!!!
that's terrifying i lost 20 planes without escort under shots of Buffalo over Singapore for a decision of ....who?
max range is not good arranged by me.

Just another question.
Why air attack is not managed as recon :
I explain better, why is not possible set an arc of attack as is possible to do in recon, so is possible direct an attack only in the right direction avoidind airplanes attack objectives heavily defended.
This mode is already implemented in program and can easily extended to all type af attacks.

Thxs
Post #: 1
RE: Max range & air attack arc - 10/2/2015 2:37:42 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		Greetings Caldy! In relation to your concerns, there has been many discussions in the forum over the idea that the player should be able to create "no fly/go zones" either by a designating a specific hex or by arcs. I have had, on multiple occasions, ship Task Forces "react" into a hex where they die due to KNOWN shore batteries and/or minefields. Singapore is a prime example. I've had aircraft do the same sort of thing, strike ships that are highly protected and they do so without escort. Unfortunately the discussion reverts back to the same problem, it would be VERY problematic to change the code to reflect what might seem obvious to a player to any degree. In life, you do have "aggressive" commanders who make what might be considered VERY ill advised decisions (Custer being a prime example). This can happen in the game too... Halsey is marked VERY high in aggression, which can lead to trouble, so many players don't use him. Therefore, I'm not sure what can be done. When I sail past a "no go hex" with a TF (such as going around Singapore) I have to ensure that the TF has a "reaction range" of ZERO... The problem here is that for the WHOLE move, not just the few hexes it takes to get past Singapore, the reaction for that TF is ZERO. So there are ways to limit the problem of going into areas that you don't want your units to go, but always at a cost. AND to complicate things, there is always the chance that your leader will override your orders and do it anyway! It is a difficult situation to "code" and I think the developers did the best they could given the limits of the system.

< Message edited by dr.hal -- 10/2/2015 3:38:48 PM >

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RE: Max range & air attack arc - 10/2/2015 4:58:56 PM   
caldy

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 8/20/2010
Status: offline 		sorry dr.hal but allow me to partly disagree with your statements.
i have some experience in programming and i think that certainly the development of AI in witp is very
complicated,BUT a program is not subject to magic or feelings. (i admit sometimes in programming i think the opposite)
Then if a TF react with "react 0" or a group of planes (my case) attack beyond the "max distance" is only because a ruotine
override this instruction with another, ad example,aggressiveness of commander or others i dont know, but the concept does not change.
If in programming the last routine executed is...
1) is setting react = 0
2) if yes move to attack enemy at 3 hex dist is aborted.
3) if not set go to do attack

things as you described never happen while commander have 100% aggressiveness.
if programmers think that its better to leave a kind of unpredictability in game,this is an option, but then write "react 0 80% probable"
in your button and we will stop complaining that the game does not obey our orders.

again sorry for criticism and for my english.

(in reply to caldy)
Post #: 3
RE: Max range & air attack arc - 10/2/2015 5:11:04 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		No need to ever apologize caldy, that's what this is all about, an exchange... but in truth, I think you agree with my conclusion. If this game is to reflect some form of Pacific War reality, then it does have to have some form of randomness, as there WERE and ARE some dumb commanders out there making dumb decisions. Thus I think "aggressiveness" is a variable that should be included. If this "override" were not included, players would have WAY too much control over their units. There are always "cowboys" out there (and NOT only in the USA) who will go way beyond their orders, sometimes for good and sometimes of ill....

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RE: Max range & air attack arc - 10/2/2015 6:42:50 PM   
caldy

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 8/20/2010
Status: offline 		I agree with u BUT is always a question of borders ... if my commander think to be a 'cowboy' or a 'samurai' and do a mistake, is 'tolerable' but if this mistake cost me a task force or a group of bombers this is not more tolerable, above all if i know the risk of this action and i specifically ordered not do so,this fault is punished with shooting in war
This conversation now sound something philosophical but if u ask all men died because that commander wants to be a kamikaze all they agree with me
Seriously i think that if i explicit do that command my order override actions of my commanders and so the game must override their decision in every case.

that's my opinion but i think improve this fantastic game
bye all

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Post #: 5
RE: Max range & air attack arc - 10/2/2015 7:02:48 PM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		When your post count gets up higher, you should post a save (zipped up) showing the the 'error'.

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Michael

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RE: Max range & air attack arc - 10/2/2015 8:46:36 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Every action by every commander can be criticized. But caldy has a point. Let's create a parallel game where there are no commanders, and each player has to do everything. I'm sure no mistakes will ever be made. It will take a year to play one day, maybe more. But the developers will tell you that once certain decisions are made about the game engine it rules out something and maybe several somethings. War is chaos. Frustration is de rigueur. On site commanders often overruled orders from above depending on circumstances.

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RE: Max range & air attack arc - 10/2/2015 8:51:46 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Some problems you described might be ameliorated (sometimes) if you restrict your search arcs but that carries risks. You also would have to be sure to restrict the search arcs of BBs and cruisers in the area and maybe land based search as well.

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 10/2/2015 9:52:05 PM >

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RE: Max range & air attack arc - 10/2/2015 9:14:29 PM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline 		I never had a bomber group reset their range on their own, or fly farther than their designated range as far as I can recall. Plenty of fly-into-CAP-and-die surely and this is working as intended, but all within range. I'm using range settings (and base choice) extensively to avoid enemy CAP zones

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Post #: 9
RE: Max range & air attack arc - 10/2/2015 9:22:13 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		I think it is Commander Discretion on target choice that is overriding the range limit setting and unfortunately all NAV attacks are Commander Discretion on target choice.


May not be WAD so that's why a saved game for michaelm is essential.

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Hans


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RE: Max range & air attack arc - 10/3/2015 5:22:13 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		Sounds like you have narrowed down the problem HansB.
I could understand an aggressive commander going just a little further than the ordered range limit, but not the nearly double range jump that caldy encountered. Perhaps the override routine could be tweaked to allow a maximum 25% increase in range? This would also prevent the kind of brinkmanship where a bomber group can attack a hex adjacent to a well-defended one with little concern other than some CAP spillover.

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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