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Naval Attack Can't Select any Target!

 
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Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! - 10/4/2015 4:46:57 AM   
sfatula

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 9/8/2015
From: Calera, OK
Status: offline 		Ok, newbie, so, playing a PBEM game, Guadalcanal. I have Betties at Rabaul, and, want to target a naval unit I see 11 hexes away. The base has over 10,000 supplies, near the beginning of the game. It's does not have an exclamation mark anywhere. I see a spotted allied task force, I believe it's a damaged ship based on last turn. I can set Zeroes ti escort to the target, but, when I select Naval Attack, the place where you would select a target dims and says "Cannot Select Target". I've never seen that, which is not surprising since it's only my third game, and 2 of those were Coral Sea! Patrol levels are all 0, doesn't matter. Have lots of Torpedos, changing to bomb doesn't help. Lots of pilots, lots of aircraft. Nothing on the group screen looks odd.

What would cause me to not be able to select the target I see on the map? Why would the target box be dimmed? If I select another mission type like Port Attack, it lets me select a target if that is a hint.
Post #: 1
RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! - 10/4/2015 4:51:41 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		You *never* select targets for naval attacks. It is up to the game engine.

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Post #: 2
RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! - 10/4/2015 4:53:46 AM   
sfatula

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 9/8/2015
From: Calera, OK
Status: offline 		Well, that unfortunately says how newbie I am! Geez, I figured out (I think) the pilot training all that, and, can't get target selection apparently.

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Post #: 3
RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! - 10/4/2015 5:01:47 AM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		It gives you too much control. If the AI has a good detection level it will usually attack the most valuable TF. Carriers for one. But not always.

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Post #: 4
RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! - 10/4/2015 5:20:21 AM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Sfatula, no matter what you do in this scenario, your bombers will eventually react into the Port Moresby CAP. It is a given.

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 5
RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! - 10/4/2015 5:23:11 AM   
sfatula

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 9/8/2015
From: Calera, OK
Status: offline 		Not anything! If you naval attack, and, set secondary mode to rest, why would it run into PM cap? I guess maybe if a TF was there.

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Post #: 6
RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! - 10/4/2015 5:58:20 AM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		If a TF is there, yes. Highest detection is achieved on TFs in ports, and most ports should have CAP.

Some food for thought:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3595346

< Message edited by Yaab -- 10/4/2015 6:59:46 AM >

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Post #: 7
RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! - 10/4/2015 10:11:10 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Just to be clear, you can select ground targets such as ports and airfields with carrier based aircraft. If you select a port for attack you may get some hits on ships that are disbanded there, just like PH. Ships in drydock may be hit as well.

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Post #: 8
RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! - 10/4/2015 11:26:13 AM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

You *never* select targets for naval attacks.


Best game design decision ever made

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Post #: 9
RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! - 10/4/2015 11:37:26 AM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		But if your orders are to attack any Allied TF in a narrow arc overflying Milne Bay and you disregard the orders, attack a TF in Port Moresby, lose 10 aircraft to CAP, score no hits, get back to Rabaul, do you get demoted/court-marshalled/executed for your insubordination? No, everything is hunky-dory again, your leadership/inspiration/air/exp levels are unaffected, you do not get sent to Manchuria to train Idas in recon for the next five years. I guess every bomber leader is Tojo's cousin in WITP:AE.

Did real life naval attack in WWII was also this arbitrary? A free-roaming sweep of the oceans?

< Message edited by Yaab -- 10/4/2015 12:39:05 PM >

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Post #: 10
RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! - 10/4/2015 12:23:43 PM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline 		It's not like you made an independent decision as a daitai commander to fly to PM. You got an order from you Air HQ to intercept observed TF in hope that you would get lucky. Nothing to be punished by Manchuria for.

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Post #: 11
RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! - 10/4/2015 1:33:33 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		The HQ knew about heavy CAP over Port Moresby and gave you the specific orders not to overfly Port Moresby. Why did you fly to Port Moresby?

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Post #: 12
RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! - 10/4/2015 3:08:19 PM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 3211
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline 		Because they were told to by someone at a higher rank. Or their SQ CO saw something and wanted a promotion/easy target/etc. That's the way RL worked for both sides. It does not matter if the pilots thought the decision was stupid or not ( and God knows 1,000s were), if you were told to go, you went no matter what your personal thoughts were. Or you could spend your days in a prison somewhere breaking rocks So why should the game not reflect this reality?

< Message edited by Numdydar -- 10/4/2015 4:10:20 PM >

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Post #: 13
RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! - 10/4/2015 3:51:25 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

But if your orders are to attack any Allied TF in a narrow arc overflying Milne Bay

Just to be clear, you also *cannot* confine any missions except Naval Search and ASW to arcs.

quote:

and you disregard the orders, attack a TF in Port Moresby, lose 10 aircraft to CAP, score no hits, get back to Rabaul, do you get demoted/court-marshalled/executed for your insubordination? No, everything is hunky-dory again, your leadership/inspiration/air/exp levels are unaffected, you do not get sent to Manchuria to train Idas in recon for the next five years. I guess every bomber leader is Tojo's cousin in WITP:AE.

Did real life naval attack in WWII was also this arbitrary? A free-roaming sweep of the oceans?



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Post #: 14
RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! - 10/4/2015 7:01:00 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab


Did real life naval attack in WWII was also this arbitrary? A free-roaming sweep of the oceans?


IIRC the KB at the Battle of Midway searched in every direction except for the one that was delayed and counted for the most.
I have never restricted carrier/BB/cruiser searches except sometimes the range. I'll have to try to remember to consider it.

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Post #: 15
RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! - 10/5/2015 2:05:56 AM   
Feltan


Posts: 1160
Joined: 12/5/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

You *never* select targets for naval attacks.


Best game design decision ever made


+1

Read history. Finding and attacking a specific vessel on order is a fantasy of micromanagement.

Regards,
Feltan

(in reply to Jorge_Stanbury)
Post #: 16
RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! - 10/5/2015 9:31:54 AM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		I totally disagree while i think there should be some randomness.

In IRL if the search says some ships are into Port Moresby and other target in middle of ocean in IRL the commander accesses the espective target values and enemy defence levels.
Unfortunately the player AI doesn't do that, just jump into the better detected target and imolates the player planes against a well made CAP.

The RAF didn't attacked Taranto unless was it was a prepared operation. Otherwise the Blenheim's, Wellingtons and Beauforts will try to bomb it every time they took up the skies since they had the range.

Also the RAF had rules to only spend a torpedo in a targets size 2000t obviously for a plane commander 1000t could look like 2000t but it was a rule to prevent torpedo spending agaisnt low valuable targets.
Here we have the player AI imolate a squadron of torpedos bombers against a PT TF outside an harbor.

Instead should happend is more failed missions - nothing found etc...
The current system has too much randomness and things that wouldn't happened IRL.

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Post #: 17
RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! - 10/5/2015 9:59:14 AM   
pelthunter

 

Posts: 84
Joined: 2/14/2011
Status: offline 		There should be some opportunity to prioritize.

Like "attack destroyers only" or "attack cargo ships only" or "ignore battleships" and so on.

Especially late war when flak is murder, focusing on cargo TFs and cargo ships would be viable strategy.

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Post #: 18
RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! - 10/5/2015 11:01:27 AM   
Encircled


Posts: 2024
Joined: 12/30/2010
From: Northern England
Status: offline 		"From now on, flying your plane with 1940s instrumentation, probably tired, 100% adrenalin filled, probably a bit disorientated by flying over the sea, you will get shot on return to base if you attack the enemy that our recon has established might be a cargo T/f and guess what, its actually moving. No excuses!"




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Post #: 19
RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! - 10/5/2015 1:40:06 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

You *never* select targets for naval attacks.


Best game design decision ever made


+1

Read history. Finding and attacking a specific vessel on order is a fantasy of micromanagement.

Regards,
Feltan

+2

Particularly the early war up to maybe mid-45. At that point, USN had developed some formative tactics with regards to on site targeting, etc. Still infancy, but some concepts were evolving.

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Pax

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Post #: 20
RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! - 10/5/2015 4:20:21 PM   
fcharton

 

Posts: 1112
Joined: 10/4/2010
From: France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan
Read history. Finding and attacking a specific vessel on order is a fantasy of micromanagement.


Most certainly, but on the other hand not being able to exclude an enemy base or area, which is known to be heavily capped, save by reducing bomber range in all directions, seems a bit strange (to say the least).

Somehow, the presence of an enemy port with ships and a strong CAP over it, five hexes east, make it almost impossible for one's bombers to intercept anything further than four hexes away, to the West, North, or South. In other words, enemy bases acts as "range limiters" in all directions. I realize it cuts both ways, but it doesn't seem right. I really think arcs, or something similar (and not too precise, and subject to random factors), should be allowed for naval attacks.


Francois


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Post #: 21
RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! - 10/5/2015 4:50:23 PM   
BattleMoose

 

Posts: 231
Joined: 2/17/2014
Status: offline 		Its a hack that you can use. Deliberately don't naval search over the heavily capped base, then your bombers wont' strike at it and you can increase their naval attack range. Very obvious drawbacks, but its something that you can use.

(in reply to fcharton)
Post #: 22
RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! - 10/5/2015 4:59:13 PM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BattleMoose
Its a hack that you can use. Deliberately don't naval search over the heavily capped base, then your bombers wont' strike at it and you can increase their naval attack range. Very obvious drawbacks, but its something that you can use.

Unfortunately you will still detect TFs in the danger zone now and then. Coastal watchers, your own random passing TFs or subs with air search e.t.c. Given that entire circle of radius 4 is always searched, it can be pretty hard to make sure you not light up that particular base

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Post #: 23
RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! - 10/5/2015 5:14:51 PM   
BattleMoose

 

Posts: 231
Joined: 2/17/2014
Status: offline 		Yes, it has very obvious drawbacks. But I have done this in the past with success. Just another tool in the kit bag.

< Message edited by BattleMoose -- 10/5/2015 6:15:07 PM >

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Post #: 24
RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! - 10/5/2015 9:40:51 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

You *never* select targets for naval attacks.


Best game design decision ever made


+1

Read history. Finding and attacking a specific vessel on order is a fantasy of micromanagement.

Regards,
Feltan


Bismarck wasn't, Ilustrious in Med? They are big ships i know.
But Ultra made specific targets for UK submarines and airplanes in Mediterranean. It included a search plane appear over the target for axis not to get suspicious.


But more than that it is not what we are talking about.
No one attacks a major enemy base without follwing specific orders.


When US commanders said to attack the Bismarck sea convoy the bombers didn't ended attacking something else in another very different direction.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Bismarck_Sea

They or some of them could have messed up and attacked some other convoy nearby if existed but not going in another mission.

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Post #: 25
RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! - 10/5/2015 9:42:45 PM   
robinsa


Posts: 183
Joined: 7/24/2013
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		I know Halsey never risked getting sent of to Manchura but your post reminded me of him and the battle of Leyte gulf. Here is a quote from wiki that I think sums it up pretty well.

"Searches by my carrier planes revealed the presence of the Northern carrier force on the afternoon of 24 October, which completed the picture of all enemy naval forces. As it seemed childish to me to guard statically San Bernardino Strait, I concentrated TF 38 during the night and steamed north to attack the Northern Force at dawn.

I believed that the Center Force had been so heavily damaged in the Sibuyan Sea that it could no longer be considered a serious menace to Seventh Fleet.["

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Post #: 26
RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! - 10/6/2015 1:26:08 AM   
Feltan


Posts: 1160
Joined: 12/5/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan
Read history. Finding and attacking a specific vessel on order is a fantasy of micromanagement.


Most certainly, but on the other hand not being able to exclude an enemy base or area, which is known to be heavily capped, save by reducing bomber range in all directions, seems a bit strange (to say the least).

Somehow, the presence of an enemy port with ships and a strong CAP over it, five hexes east, make it almost impossible for one's bombers to intercept anything further than four hexes away, to the West, North, or South. In other words, enemy bases acts as "range limiters" in all directions. I realize it cuts both ways, but it doesn't seem right. I really think arcs, or something similar (and not too precise, and subject to random factors), should be allowed for naval attacks.


Francois




You make good and fair points.

My point, perhaps stated a little to succinctly, was that in general there was no way a commander could order the specific target -- save, for instance, "attack the carriers" which the game engine already handles by default.

There are many, many examples of aircraft not finding the target; hitting another target claiming it to be a capital ship, and totally missing the target but reporting it sunk.

As the commander, you get to order a strike launched. What happens after that is up to your digital subordinates.

Not perfect -- as you point out there are frustrating examples that seem difficult to justify.

Regards,
Feltan

(in reply to fcharton)
Post #: 27
RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! - 10/6/2015 1:56:41 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Everything has to be in the commander in the field's discretion. Those fine tuned instructions never happened historically. If you don't trust your commander to make the right call, replace him. In any sort of carrier action your search planes have to search (unless you've ordered an attack on a target that cannot move during the night (a base, port, airfield i.e.). Until you get the info back from your search planes you can't decide what the best course to take is. Nobody ever gave any orders like that. This isn't a game that's not fair, this is the best attempt I know of to mimic reality. Guess what, reality isn't fair. You're presented with situations and circumstances that you need to deal with. Do it. Otherwise look for someone to come out with a game or a mod of this one that has one hour turns so you can play ship captain on top of everything else you have to do.

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Post #: 28
RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! - 10/6/2015 2:31:37 AM   
BattleMoose

 

Posts: 231
Joined: 2/17/2014
Status: offline 		Having a level of self preservation for the naval bombing crews would be much nicer. Like them having the discretion to not attack heavily capped minor ships, in port or somewhere else. As it stands, a group of torpedo bombers will attack a single cargo ship that has a very strong cap and just die for nothing. This is a definitive flaw in the game.

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Post #: 29
RE: Naval Attack Can't Select any Target! - 10/6/2015 2:58:07 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BattleMoose

Having a level of self preservation for the naval bombing crews would be much nicer. Like them having the discretion to not attack heavily capped minor ships, in port or somewhere else. As it stands, a group of torpedo bombers will attack a single cargo ship that has a very strong cap and just die for nothing. This is a definitive flaw in the game.


This is a definition of the kind of stuff that actually happened. Well, only partial.

I'm just asking, do you want to fly the planes yourself?

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 10/6/2015 3:59:37 AM >

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