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Attack Bombers - 9/27/2014 7:14:20 AM

Chris21wen

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Do ABs behave the same as other level bombers or is it all down to height?

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RE: Attack Bombers - 9/27/2014 8:10:22 AM

JocMeister

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They will drop down and strafe after dropping their bombs if they are on naval attack.

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RE: Attack Bombers - 9/27/2014 10:05:47 AM

Chris21wen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

They will drop down and strafe after dropping their bombs if they are on naval attack.

Thanks. What about ground attacks?

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RE: Attack Bombers - 9/27/2014 3:57:35 PM

crsutton

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Attack bombers will drop down and attack at 100 feet for any attack set below 6,000 feet. The will suppress AA at bases and on ships (but can still potentially take a beating) Above 6,000 feet they work just like any other bomber. Non attack bombers only carry half a bomb load when set to low level attack. Fighters set to 1,000 feet will drop down to 100 feet as well.

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RE: Attack Bombers - 9/28/2014 8:45:11 AM

wegman58

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New to the game and just made it to May 1942. Are Attack Bombers clearly identified and do I have any yet? (Allied)

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RE: Attack Bombers - 9/28/2014 12:38:58 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wegman58

New to the game and just made it to May 1942. Are Attack Bombers clearly identified and do I have any yet? (Allied)

Hey welcome, You won't see any until later. The first versions are the D, G and J versions of the B25 and then later the A20G. They start to show up in 1943. They are labeled attack bombers in the plane description menu but you can also tell because the nose art shows them as not having a bombardier's glass on the front of the aircraft.

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RE: Attack Bombers - 9/28/2014 8:18:06 PM

geofflambert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Attack bombers will drop down and attack at 100 feet for any attack set below 6,000 feet. The will suppress AA at bases and on ships (but can still potentially take a beating) Above 6,000 feet they work just like any other bomber. Non attack bombers only carry half a bomb load when set to low level attack. Fighters set to 1,000 feet will drop down to 100 feet as well.

Do you mean by low level below 6k or at or below 1k? If it's below 6k I did not know that. Ouch.

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RE: Attack Bombers - 9/29/2014 12:35:00 PM

oaltinyay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Attack bombers will drop down and attack at 100 feet for any attack set below 6,000 feet. The will suppress AA at bases and on ships (but can still potentially take a beating) Above 6,000 feet they work just like any other bomber. Non attack bombers only carry half a bomb load when set to low level attack. Fighters set to 1,000 feet will drop down to 100 feet as well.

I had several missions where I sent b24s etc carrying a full bomb load at 100 ft... realistic ? no I dont think so, but it did happen.

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RE: Attack Bombers - 9/29/2014 2:23:43 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: oaltinyay

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Attack bombers will drop down and attack at 100 feet for any attack set below 6,000 feet. The will suppress AA at bases and on ships (but can still potentially take a beating) Above 6,000 feet they work just like any other bomber. Non attack bombers only carry half a bomb load when set to low level attack. Fighters set to 1,000 feet will drop down to 100 feet as well.

I had several missions where I sent b24s etc carrying a full bomb load at 100 ft... realistic ? no I dont think so, but it did happen.

Not a full bomb load but half a bomb load. Still very deadly and usually frowned upon in PBEmail play.

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RE: Attack Bombers - 9/29/2014 2:24:28 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Attack bombers will drop down and attack at 100 feet for any attack set below 6,000 feet. The will suppress AA at bases and on ships (but can still potentially take a beating) Above 6,000 feet they work just like any other bomber. Non attack bombers only carry half a bomb load when set to low level attack. Fighters set to 1,000 feet will drop down to 100 feet as well.

Do you mean by low level below 6k or at or below 1k? If it's below 6k I did not know that. Ouch.

Anywhere below 6k for Attack bombers. 1k for fighters.

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RE: Attack Bombers - 9/29/2014 3:26:04 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: wegman58

New to the game and just made it to May 1942. Are Attack Bombers clearly identified and do I have any yet? (Allied)

Hey welcome, You won't see any until later. The first versions are the D, G and J versions of the B25 and then later the A20G. They start to show up in 1943. They are labeled attack bombers in the plane description menu but you can also tell because the nose art shows them as not having a bombardier's glass on the front of the aircraft.

cr, aren't the A20s attack bombers? The Americans get two squadrons of them at start.

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RE: Attack Bombers - 9/29/2014 3:54:37 PM

geofflambert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Attack bombers will drop down and attack at 100 feet for any attack set below 6,000 feet. The will suppress AA at bases and on ships (but can still potentially take a beating) Above 6,000 feet they work just like any other bomber. Non attack bombers only carry half a bomb load when set to low level attack. Fighters set to 1,000 feet will drop down to 100 feet as well.

Do you mean by low level below 6k or at or below 1k? If it's below 6k I did not know that. Ouch.

Anywhere below 6k for Attack bombers. 1k for fighters.

I'm sorry, I meant for regular bombers. Are they half-load at 5k?

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Post #: 12

RE: Attack Bombers - 9/29/2014 6:49:44 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: wegman58

New to the game and just made it to May 1942. Are Attack Bombers clearly identified and do I have any yet? (Allied)

Hey welcome, You won't see any until later. The first versions are the D, G and J versions of the B25 and then later the A20G. They start to show up in 1943. They are labeled attack bombers in the plane description menu but you can also tell because the nose art shows them as not having a bombardier's glass on the front of the aircraft.

cr, aren't the A20s attack bombers? The Americans get two squadrons of them at start.

I think early A20s carried bombardiers but will have to check in game. The may be attack bombers. You get so few that I rarely use them for anything but training.

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RE: Attack Bombers - 9/29/2014 6:50:37 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Attack bombers will drop down and attack at 100 feet for any attack set below 6,000 feet. The will suppress AA at bases and on ships (but can still potentially take a beating) Above 6,000 feet they work just like any other bomber. Non attack bombers only carry half a bomb load when set to low level attack. Fighters set to 1,000 feet will drop down to 100 feet as well.

Do you mean by low level below 6k or at or below 1k? If it's below 6k I did not know that. Ouch.

Anywhere below 6k for Attack bombers. 1k for fighters.

I'm sorry, I meant for regular bombers. Are they half-load at 5k?

Yes, all bombers but attack bombers are half load when at low level. 5k is low level.

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RE: Attack Bombers - 9/29/2014 6:58:38 PM

geofflambert

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OMG, I've always used 5k (except 4Es) unless the flak was too hot. From now on I'll win every game as the Japanese!

Attachment (1)

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RE: Attack Bombers - 9/29/2014 7:06:23 PM

geofflambert

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Obviously this rule doesn't apply to torpedo bombers. I haven't had any problem approaching at 5k there.

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RE: Attack Bombers - 9/29/2014 7:57:52 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Obviously this rule doesn't apply to torpedo bombers. I haven't had any problem approaching at 5k there.

Torp bombers will fly in at any altitude and drop to 200 ft to release. No penalty for low level.

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RE: Attack Bombers - 9/29/2014 8:57:50 PM

alimentary

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton
I think early A20s carried bombardiers but will have to check in game. The may be attack bombers. You get so few that I rarely use them for anything but training.

The A20's at game start (scen 1) are not attack bombers. The in-game "aircraft reinforcement pool" shows that the first attack bomber production starts with the A20A1 Havoc in September 42 and the B25D1 Mitchell in February 43. The first reinforcement group ("Group Reinforcement Schedule) arriving pre-equipped with attack bombers is the 41st BG/820th BS arriving 22 Sep 43. You can upgrade existing groups to become attack bombers earlier than that, of course.

< Message edited by alimentary -- 9/29/2014 9:58:22 PM >

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RE: Attack Bombers - 9/29/2014 9:33:58 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

OMG, I've always used 5k (except 4Es) unless the flak was too hot. From now on I'll win every game as the Japanese!

The thing is that it rarely pays to use Allied medium bombers on low ground attack or airfield attack. They are nearly as effective at 7-9000 feet and much less likely to get hit by flak. At low altitude, a well defended base will just chew your bombers up. This includes attack bombers. I use them at low altitude versus units in the open that I know don't have strong AA defense and against light warships and merchants. Heavy warships will chew them to bits even when they are suppressing flak.

It is a case by case thing. I still use non -attack bombers on naval attack at 1,000 feet. Sometimes it is better to place a bomb regardless of the losses. And in 1942 you often have little choice. The new flak formula in DaBabes just makes it worse to use low level attacks.

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RE: Attack Bombers - 9/29/2014 10:58:43 PM

wdolson

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Attack bombers represent the bombers modified by Pappy Gunn's people in Australia to make them better at attacking transports and escorts. They did experiments with B-17s and found they could serve well in the low level attack role, but the supply was very small and there was a big demand for them to fly other missions. The B-25 and A-20 were picked for conversion. The B-26 was a very marginal airplane flying from unimproved airstrips cut out of the jungle, which is why they were diverted to Europe. B-25s and A-20s did much better in rough conditions.

The B-25 was the better plane for this role because it had a bigger cross section and longer range than the A-20, but they converted both. They loaded them up with as many .50 caliber machine guns they could fit. The B-25 usually had 2 per side just behind the cockpit and the early versions had 4 more in the bombardier's compartment. Many B-25s were also field modified with a tail gun position and waist guns. By late production of the B-25D and Gs, the waist guns were factory standard. The tail gun position became standard with the B-25H when the top turret was moved forward.

The modified A-20s and B-25s were devastating in the low altitude skip bombing role. The suite of .50s was enough to sink small craft and kept flak gunners cowering on larger ships. The attack came in fast at mast height and was usually so quick the defending ship had no opportunity to maneuver. The most famous use of these bombers was the Battle of the Bismark Sea.

Douglas and North American started factory producing these types of bombers after a while. The extra guns were often removed in other theaters, but usually kept in the Pacific. The 8 .50 forward package was in common use in all B-25 units against Japan by late war, even if they had someone riding in the nose. The B-25 had a modular nose that could be changed out replacing the bombardier with a solid nose with an extra 4 .50 calibers.

The B-25G and H was the first attempt to make a more effective, factory built attack bomber, but the 75mm gun had different ballistics than the .50 calibers and aiming the gun was very difficult. In some cases the 75mm was removed in the field and 1-2 .50s was put in its place.

Late A-20s came with a bombardier version and a solid gun nose version. Typically a unit in Europe would have a couple of bombardier versions for flight leaders and the rest with gun noses. When the A-26 began to replace the A-20, there was a shortage of glass nosed A-26s, so the glass nosed A-20s continued to fly with gunned up A-26s.

In the original WitP there were poor rules for skip bombers that could lead to gamey use. For AE, the category of the attack bomber was created to represent these modified bombers.

Bill

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RE: Attack Bombers - 9/30/2014 3:47:58 AM

geofflambert

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It just seems (to me) a crying shame that B-25s were not developed to carry torpedoes when called upon. I don't care that they were army, why didn't that happen?

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RE: Attack Bombers - 9/30/2014 4:11:06 AM

wdolson

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North American made torpedo racks for the B-25 and the Army did testing with them. They were never used operationally because by the time they could have been deployed, torpedoes were only used when going after carriers or battleships, neither of which were seen by US forces between late 1942 and mid-1943.

Bill

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RE: Attack Bombers - 10/1/2014 12:10:39 AM

crsutton

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My understanding is that Gen. Kenney favored the A20 and wanted more. Not as effective as the B25 but in a theater where a downed plane over jungle or sea meant the very real chance of the loss of the crew, the A20 with it's 2 man crew offered a morbid economy of force.

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RE: Attack Bombers - 10/1/2014 4:00:18 AM

Dili

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quote:

The modified A-20s and B-25s were devastating in the low altitude skip bombing role. The suite of .50s was enough to sink small craft and kept flak gunners cowering on larger ships. The attack came in fast at mast height and was usually so quick the defending ship had no opportunity to maneuver. The most famous use of these bombers was the Battle of the Bismark Sea.

Didn't worked so well in Mediterranean due to many AA in all vessels including barges specific for AA. A Siebel barge could have 2 Quads 20mm plus 2 single 20mm and a 37mm.

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RE: Attack Bombers - 10/1/2014 4:16:23 AM

wdolson

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US medium bombers were also dedicated to other roles than they were in the Pacific. In the Med they were used at medium altitudes to attack land targets more than they were in the Pacific.

Bill

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RE: Attack Bombers - 10/1/2014 2:55:08 PM

Lecivius

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Gunn's team used whatever weapons were laying around. The existing B-17's were getting worn & inoperable. So were a lot of the fighters in theater. That's why the aircraft were fitted with ironed in weapons of various sorts. Some had a lot of .50's in the nose. Some had .50's and .30's. One had 2 .303's and 2 20mm from some busted Airacobra's. One had a 37mm hand loaded AT gun

All of this I got from Morison's.

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RE: Attack Bombers - 10/1/2014 10:11:00 PM

wdolson

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Pappy Gunn was an interesting character. He also had a reason to do all he could for the cause. He was a Navy pilot and retired in the 1930s. After retiring, he went and started an airline in the Philippines. He was there with his family when the war started and he was unable to get them out, so they got interned with other civilians. During the Philippines campaign he was flying an airliner as a liaison aircraft and went down in the jungle, but walked out a week later.

He escaped to Australia and was essentially drafted into the Army by MacArthur. He served as the 5th AF's engineering guru for most of the war.

At the Battle of Leyte Gulf, he went ashore in one of the early waves to help coordinate the establishment of the base at Tacloben. The first thing they did was build an emergency strip on the beach. That strip was used by the Navy flyers who lost their ship in the Battle Off Samar. The Navy planes were airborne so late in the day that night had fallen by the time their last tank of fuel began to run low and they needed to be guided in. At Tacloben there was only one person who knew how to do an LSO's job: Gunn. He grabs a couple of flaming torches and guided in every Navy plane. Because there was no room at the strip, most of the planes were pushed off into the surf as soon as they landed.

When my father arrived at Tacloben a few weeks later, he said the surf was full of Navy planes. He didn't know why they were there other than someone said the Navy had lost some carriers. He didn't learn the full story until recently.

Gunn probably became a good barnyard mechanic keeping his airline going in the middle of nowhere. It was the sort of field engineering the 5th AF needed during the dark days of 1942.

Bill

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RE: Attack Bombers - 10/2/2014 6:07:21 AM

Barb

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Pappy was one hell of a man. I have a book about him written by his son:
http://www.amazon.com/Pappy-Gunn-Nathaniel/dp/1418437751/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&sr=1-1&qid=1412229216

He was the man that never said "no" to any crazy idea - He tried to modify B-25s to the extent they were shedding skin when firing all the .50cals - I think he managed to pack 14 forward firing (2 top turret, 4 in side blisters, 8 in the nose) on one piece - but they had to remove them to keep the plane flyable.

He was the right men to the 5th Air Force - when Kenney asked North American to build strafer version of B-25, North American representatives said the plane would not fly because of center of gravity - Pappy replied to them he had removed the center of gravity from his planes

He was definitely the men that "got things done" - He stole 12 brand new B-25s from the Dutch air force (who doesn't have pilots trained in them) ... He even went back to the "place of crime" and requisitioned the (removed) bomb-sights on gun point.

He was also a man who can make things crazy - once he and few others rolled a bomb to a ditch behind some tents where pilots were sleeping... Most unappreciated wake up call

And as an legendary aviator, he ended his life in a plane crash - back in Philippines flying his own airline.

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RE: Attack Bombers - 10/14/2015 7:35:04 AM

Yaab

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Attack bombers will drop down and attack at 100 feet for any attack set below 6,000 feet. The will suppress AA at bases and on ships (but can still potentially take a beating) Above 6,000 feet they work just like any other bomber. Non attack bombers only carry half a bomb load when set to low level attack. Fighters set to 1,000 feet will drop down to 100 feet as well.

Does it mean that if I set attack bombers to attack airfield/port/city/ground targets between 1000-5000 feet they will always drop to 100 feet? That can be pretty devastating for the attack bombers fly against ground targets.

< Message edited by Yaab -- 10/14/2015 8:36:18 AM >

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RE: Attack Bombers - 10/14/2015 8:26:26 AM

oaltinyay

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Has anyone experience with Ki45s or anything similar from IJN side ? I am producing a lot of them and training them in LowN to get at the lesser escorted groups.

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