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Is there a detailed description somewhere of mission types for TF?

 
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Is there a detailed description somewhere of mission ty... - 10/19/2015 8:04:30 PM   
sfatula

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 9/8/2015
From: Calera, OK
Status: offline 		I have yet to find it, it may be there, don't see it in the manual. I am wondering as to what the mission types actually mean, in the game. Some of fairly obvious, some are not. Some may give certain advantages over others, not sure. In general, the ones I am unclear on are the differences between:

Transport
Replenishment
Cargo
Support
Escort
Tanker
Amphibious

Also, CV Escort, not sure why you'd want to have this mission type and what advantages does it convey? Same for Escort.

Really, it would be handy if there was just one source for this info, and maybe there is. If so, where is it!? I have to assume these are not in name only, i.e., there has to be some game differences between transport and cargo or support, etc. Other than just what types of ships can go in them.
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RE: Is there a detailed description somewhere of missio... - 10/19/2015 8:07:57 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Yes, there is a spread sheet in the manual that lay it all out.

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RE: Is there a detailed description somewhere of missio... - 10/19/2015 8:10:09 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		CV Escort TFs only can take Escort carriers. The one big advantage that I can see is that they never react towards the enemy and you can put the TF in a base hex without any of the carriers incurring the %50 mission penalty.

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RE: Is there a detailed description somewhere of missio... - 10/19/2015 8:11:35 PM   
sfatula

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 9/8/2015
From: Calera, OK
Status: offline 		Hmm, ok, so, I don't see it. I have looked through section 6 and found nothing that gives the information I am wanting. I have also, for example, searched the PDF for "replenishment" and nothing there describes the details I am inquiring about. And that is just an example, I have dozens and dozens of question related to what each of them specifically allow you to do that others do not, etc.

(in reply to crsutton)
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RE: Is there a detailed description somewhere of missio... - 10/19/2015 8:28:27 PM   
Admiral DadMan


Posts: 3627
Joined: 2/22/2002
From: A Lion uses all its might to catch a Rabbit
Status: offline 		P.75
6.1 TASK FORCES AND SHIPS
Explains the four main types of ships

P.76
6.1.1.1 TASK FORCE MISSIONS
Explains each task force type and its best use

P.273
20.1.2 SHIP TYPES
A table delineating what each ship type does/is best suited for

P.279
20.1.2.1 TF BY CLASS
A table of each ship type and what tf mission it can perform

< Message edited by Admiral DadMan -- 10/19/2015 9:51:00 PM >

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RE: Is there a detailed description somewhere of missio... - 10/19/2015 8:47:35 PM   
sfatula

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 9/8/2015
From: Calera, OK
Status: offline 		Yes, I do see that. And does it say why, what functions differently between Tanker and Replenishment (other than a couple of ship types), any sort of hint why one might use one over the other? They sound the same from the description. Heck, according to the chart, I can use transport for that as well. Cargo says they carry supplies and resources. But so does transport, why would I use one over the other? Thus far, I have always used transport as I can't find out why I might want to use cargo instead. There has to be some game reason for the different types, something that gets a bonus, works better, whatever. Tanker vs cargo is odd as well. etc.

I am not asking you to answer these specific questions, I would hope they are already answered somewhere. They are just examples of a myriad of questions I have. I would think there is a FAQ or document or forum post somewhere, just have been unable to find it. But the manual does not explain these things. It's a start and provides a little bit of info to be sure. Maybe it's just and only the specific ships that can be in each one, if that is the case, I would always use the most flexible one, the one that allows the most ship types. Making the other ones irrelevant.

So, what I am looking for is a single source, if it exists, to explain why use each one, under what circumstances. Perhaps this is not available anywhere and one has to just go through each one one at a time and find all limitations, bonuses, advantages, etc. piecemeal. If so, c'est la vie!

Yes, I am a big time newbie, just trying to figure out the most basic stuff. Usually, the harder stuff is easier for me, it's the simple stuff that always trips me up. Just as it was 40 years ago in school. I would always miss the simple questions as I made them far more complex than they were, and, always get the hardest ones.

(in reply to Admiral DadMan)
Post #: 6
RE: Is there a detailed description somewhere of missio... - 10/19/2015 8:49:44 PM   
Admiral DadMan


Posts: 3627
Joined: 2/22/2002
From: A Lion uses all its might to catch a Rabbit
Status: offline 		Support
These TF contain Repair ships, Tenders, Fuel and Ammunition ships and their escort. These TF can move to forward locations and create a temporary Naval base. Also useful for moving support ships between rear area bases. Maximum of 36 ships in each Task Force.

Replenishment
These TF's carry fuel, ammunition, and supplies to resupply TFs at sea or in port.

Amphibious
These TFs are used for invasions of enemy held locations. They carry troops and supplies in “Combat Load”, which is less efficient than commercial loading.

Transport
These TFs move supplies, ground troops or fuel to the friendly bases. Troops and supplies are loaded for maximum efficiency and do not arrive battle
ready.

Cargo
A TF meant to carry supplies and resources

Tanker
A TF meant to carry fuel or oil.

Escort
general purpose “ship movement” TFs. They are used to evacuate damaged ships from the battle area, and to move ships between bases. They cannot load or unload, or perform any other function, and will flee all enemy forces. They may include any type of surface ship, including those too badly damaged to fight.

< Message edited by Admiral DadMan -- 10/19/2015 9:50:42 PM >

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Scenario 127: "Scraps of Paper"
(\../)
(O.o)
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CVB Langley:

(in reply to sfatula)
Post #: 7
RE: Is there a detailed description somewhere of missio... - 10/19/2015 9:00:59 PM   
sfatula

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 9/8/2015
From: Calera, OK
Status: offline 		So, none of the answers have provided the info I am looking for. Either:

1. I am not explaining well at all or
2. There is NO difference (other than some ship type differences which appear to be arbitrary) other than some ability to make the player feel good by categorizing them by name.

A TF can carry supplies in a Cargo mission, sure, as it can in a transport mission. So, I will just always use transport then to ferry supplies between bases as there is only one ship type that can be in a cargo and not in a transport, a YO, which I have not encountered yet. There are tons of ships that can be in a transport mission and not cargo though. A TF can carry fuel in a tanker mission, or a transport mission, again, I will just use the more general transport mission (again only one ship a YO that can not be in a transport). I guess there simply is no meaningful difference. Just seemed like there would be advantages of using the more "correct" type, so, will presume not.

What am I missing if anything then? This is speaking of a non GC. Where I just have a one time need to ferry fuel or supplies for example, not a regular convoy.


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RE: Is there a detailed description somewhere of missio... - 10/19/2015 9:01:33 PM   
Amoral

 

Posts: 378
Joined: 7/28/2010
Status: offline 		A lot of the TF designations affect how the task force will behave while it is under AI control.

So a tanker and a replenishment task force may seem the same until you click "computer control" or until they come under attack and have to decide where to run to. Ditto for an escort TF made up of 2 Battleships and two Destroyers vs a Surface Combat TF made up of the same.

Some TF types do have important distinctions, like the difference between amphibious and transport TFs.

Some of the distinctions are also there to help the AI avoid putting dumb ship choices into a task force.



< Message edited by Amoral -- 10/19/2015 10:06:27 PM >

(in reply to sfatula)
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RE: Is there a detailed description somewhere of missio... - 10/19/2015 9:34:29 PM   
BillBrown


Posts: 2335
Joined: 6/15/2002
Status: offline 		A tanker TF can not refuel another TF using its fuel storage. A replenishment can. Later an allied replenishment TF can also supply 5" and smaller ammo at sea.

(in reply to Amoral)
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RE: Is there a detailed description somewhere of missio... - 10/19/2015 9:51:36 PM   
sfatula

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 9/8/2015
From: Calera, OK
Status: offline 		So, there's one tidbit I cannot find in the manual, perfect example. Didn't think tankers could ever refuel ships from the storage. I thought that's what an AO was for. So, there's a key reason to use a replenishment TF instead of another type in those cases. I know there's lots of little tricks like that, just don't know what they are. Apparently, replenishment TFs also help prevent returning to home base to refuel, and, apparently, an AO sitting in a transport TF would not prevent it. According to 6.2.9, at least when following.

What's odd is the manual specifically says about tankers:

"Can not perform underway replenishment". Are you sure a replenishment TF allows this when at sea?

I guess the AI explanation makes sense for the reasons for the mission types.

(in reply to BillBrown)
Post #: 11
RE: Is there a detailed description somewhere of missio... - 10/19/2015 10:28:10 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

Are you sure a replenishment TF allows this when at sea?


Yes, but then again I only use AO's (oilers) in a replenishment TF. I don't think you can put TK's in a replenishment TF. Not 100% sure but... I do know if you don't have AO's at a base you can't create a replenishment TF. Also as stated above in at least some cases the TF mission is more useful for the AI to function.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to sfatula)
Post #: 12
RE: Is there a detailed description somewhere of missio... - 10/19/2015 11:25:34 PM   
Admiral DadMan


Posts: 3627
Joined: 2/22/2002
From: A Lion uses all its might to catch a Rabbit
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sfatula

So, there's one tidbit I cannot find in the manual, perfect example. Didn't think tankers could ever refuel ships from the storage. I thought that's what an AO was for. So, there's a key reason to use a replenishment TF instead of another type in those cases. I know there's lots of little tricks like that, just don't know what they are. Apparently, replenishment TFs also help prevent returning to home base to refuel, and, apparently, an AO sitting in a transport TF would not prevent it. According to 6.2.9, at least when following.

What's odd is the manual specifically says about tankers:

"Can not perform underway replenishment". Are you sure a replenishment TF allows this when at sea?

I guess the AI explanation makes sense for the reasons for the mission types.

An AO is an "Oiler", it carries fuel or oil. Its fuel cargo can be utilized for refueling other ships while at sea or while in port. It can transport oil, but a TK is better suited for that role. A TK cannot refuel other ships from its cargo, and therefore cannot be part of a Replenishment TF.

This is all information from the manual, however it has to be inferred from reading and integrating several parts of the manual.

_____________________________

Scenario 127: "Scraps of Paper"
(\../)
(O.o)
(> <)

CVB Langley:

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Post #: 13
RE: Is there a detailed description somewhere of missio... - 10/20/2015 3:24:10 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Unfortunately, any ship can refuel (from its own fuel tanks) any other ship (except subs) at sea. This may be ahistorical, to some extent, but that's the only way the game engine can handle it. This is legitimate: CVs can refuel their escorts at sea from their own supplies. This can and sometimes will automatically occur without specific orders. The mission type is irrelevant. What's important to understand is you can refuel warships using fully fueled xAKs or whatever. Mission type is a direct order to the TF as to what it is supposed to do. The only bombardments that will occur is if you order it, or to some degree the escorts in an amphibious TF will support a landing in hostile territory, but the results will not be similar. Orders like these determine whether a TF will approach at night, in darkness and flee before dawn, as an example. The key is giving a mission that is appropriate to what you want done. I never (or almost never) order transport mode because then you can only load and unload in an adequate port. I usually use amphibious mode even when transporting troops to another friendly port. Putting troops in strategic mode in order to squeeze more troops on a particular ship that may subsequently be sunk by a sub seems like a bad plan to me. I just use more ships. There are subtleties throughout this game that you may not find predictable but you learn them through experience (best way) or in a forum like this as you are doing.

edit: For the reason given, I don't use, or try not to, troop ships, as in converted passenger liners. The loss is too great if the ship is sunk.


< Message edited by geofflambert -- 10/20/2015 4:35:31 AM >

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RE: Is there a detailed description somewhere of missio... - 10/20/2015 5:14:43 AM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		There are three types of ships that can go into a replenishment TF that makes it special. One is a fleet oiler (not tanker), with them your TF can refuel other Tfs at sea. Another is the AE type ships, but only in late war. They can resupply AA ammo up to five inch (I believe) to TFs at sea. The last ship is a CVE that is carrying the special "VR" type air units. You can have two VR groups with up to 48 aircraft on a one of these CVEs. They cannot fly flight operations but will automatically send replacement planes to any other carrier that is within range and short of aircraft. But for any of this to work it has to be a replenishment TF and no other type. They do work and are a big help to the Allies late in the war.

_____________________________

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RE: Is there a detailed description somewhere of missio... - 10/20/2015 6:25:47 AM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline 		I think the main purpose of the TF type buttons is for the seldom-if-ever used "auto-select" function. It will tell the game engine which type of TF you want to create and thus determines which type of ships the game engine should auto-select. For examle, if you select a tanker TF, it will auto-select TK types and escorts, if you select a replenishment TF, it will auto-select AO types and escorts. Same for cargo / transport > AK types or AP types. Same for Carrier / Escort Carrier > Fleet CVs or CVEs.


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RE: Is there a detailed description somewhere of missio... - 10/21/2015 4:32:25 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		Coming in late.

The point made earlier about there being no real difference between transport and cargo TFs is 'basically' true.

However, there are subtle differences and reasons for using one over another.

The YMS is another ship class that can be in transport TFs but not cargo TFs.

The YMS is a poor man's escort when he is desperate for them. They have an ASW value but cannot be placed in ASW TFs.

Using them for escorts means they will, more often then not, be the submarine target and not the transport ships and their ASW value allows them to counterattack the subs.

The biggest reason for choosing cargo TFs over transport TFs for pure supply, fuel or resources transport is twofold:

1. Cargo TFs eliminate xAPs and APs from the ship selection screen so no need to scroll through them looking for the right size and speed ships for the mission.
2. Cargo TFs have a different onboard icon than transport TFs which helps in quick recognition.

Neither are large reasons, but this game is all about nuances.


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RE: Is there a detailed description somewhere of missio... - 10/22/2015 11:10:18 AM   
bush

 

Posts: 444
Joined: 10/30/2007
From: san jose, ca
Status: offline 		Also, if a tanker TF is located at a port it can] replenish another TFs fuel.

< Message edited by bushpsu -- 10/22/2015 12:10:40 PM >

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Post #: 18
RE: Is there a detailed description somewhere of missio... - 10/23/2015 8:26:32 PM   
pompack


Posts: 2582
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bushpsu

Also, if a tanker TF is located at a port it can] replenish another TFs fuel.

and it can still do so if it is disbanded in the port and contains fuel

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RE: Is there a detailed description somewhere of missio... - 10/24/2015 7:52:10 PM   
jmalter

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown
A tanker TF can not refuel another TF using its fuel storage. A replenishment can. Later an allied replenishment TF can also supply 5" and smaller ammo at sea.

Beginning 01/45, an Allied ReplTF can re-arm TFs at sea, if it includes AE-types that are loaded w/ 'supply'.
Allied AEs are generally rated w/ 5400 cargo-capacity, they're able to re-arm anything, incl. 16" BB guns & CV sorties/torp capacity.

Prior to 01/45, ReplTFs can use AOs to re-fuel other TFs from their cargo-capacity (if located in the same hex), or give replacement airframes from 'VRF' groups to CV/CVescort TFs (if located 7 hexes or less away)(Allies only).

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RE: Is there a detailed description somewhere of missio... - 10/24/2015 8:24:47 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
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From: LI, NY
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quote:

they're able to re-arm anything, incl. 16" BB guns & CV sorties/torp capacity.


IIRC at sea replenishment of ammo is limited to 5" guns and below (at least in stock, don't know about mods).

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to jmalter)
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RE: Is there a detailed description somewhere of missio... - 10/26/2015 7:12:22 AM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 1673
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline 		hi rustysi,

I just searched through the e-manual for 'replenishment' & 'AE', but couldn't find any reference to either the specific date for at-sea ammo/sortie replenishment from AEs (tho' I'm certain that the capability starts in Jan 45), nor any restriction on ammo replenishment based on gun size. I'm also sure that at-sea ammo replenishment from AEs is only available to the Allied player.

While my memory is fallible, I do quite clearly recall my last GC, where my CV TFs were able to remain constantly at sea off the coast of Japan, supported by regular visits from AO/AE ReplTFs for fuel & sortie re-supply, & CVE/VRF ReplTFs for aircraft re-supply.

I'm not as certain of re-arming BB/CA TFs at sea from AE-types, but I do recall that that shuttling the ReplTFs south to the Marianas was a limiting factor, I only had 75% ReplTF ships that I needed to keep all my stuff consistently happy. The ReplTFs also needed their own CVEscortTFs to provide local CAP.

Also, I was playing a DBB-B scenario, not a stock scenario.

(in reply to rustysi)
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RE: Is there a detailed description somewhere of missio... - 10/26/2015 7:00:40 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		The last time I deal with AE/AKE/replenishment etc was in this thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3491611&mpage=1&key=rearming�

Alfred

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RE: Is there a detailed description somewhere of missio... - 10/29/2015 1:42:17 AM   
rustysi


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From: LI, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

they're able to re-arm anything, incl. 16" BB guns & CV sorties/torp capacity.


IIRC at sea replenishment of ammo is limited to 5" guns and below (at least in stock, don't know about mods).


Back to eat some crow. I should've checked before, but I was sure I read this somewhere (that's what I get for trusting my memory). Well I had time to search it and couldn't fine a single reference that indicated replenish at sea is limited to 5" guns and below. My apologies.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to rustysi)
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