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Ground Attack (air mission) questions - 10/22/2015 6:13:54 AM   
sfatula

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 9/8/2015
From: Calera, OK
Status: offline 		So, playing Guad, vs a PBEM, and, vs Ai to learn more. So, in the AI version, I have eliminated all his fighters at Milne and PM. So, I wanted to gauge effectiveness of Betties bombing via "Ground Attack" mission. I look at allied AS, Disruptuon, and Fatigue, before a turn, and after bombing with say 75 betties.

One unit went from 6/15/31 to 6/15/33, so, an increase of 2 fatigue
The other went from 99/13/29 to 98/12/28, a decrease of 1 AS, 1 disruption, and, 1 fatigue.

So, in other words, no difference really!

So, is there any way to bombard ground units, when you have total air superiority on the Japanese side, with Betties? Or, is it just a waste of time? Perhaps the bombing height matters? I've gone from 11,000 to 6,000. I just don't see any impact, what am I missing? Surely turn after turn bombing has some affect?
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RE: Ground Attack (air mission) questions - 10/22/2015 6:25:25 AM   
Barb


Posts: 2503
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Status: offline 		Attackers modifiers:
Altitude, pilot skill, leader Gnd skill, Detection Level

Defenders modifiers:
Forts, Flak, unit experience and morale, leader admin skill, enough supply

Other Modifiers:
Weather, Terrain

Also consider that bombing could have been effective, you just do not see its effect - simply because the effects are "ironed out" during supply phase at the end of the replay.

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RE: Ground Attack (air mission) questions - 10/22/2015 6:32:53 AM   
sfatula

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 9/8/2015
From: Calera, OK
Status: offline 		Ok, enemy troops, one unit has 0 supply, the other has a couple, way under their needs. Maybe it is ironed out, but, that means essentially, I cannot do more damage than they can repair in a turn, even without supply or air cover. Even 75 planes attacking. Seems like I must be missing something?

According to this page, http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2350193, ground skill is irrelevant for the leader.

As far as pilot ground skills, most are in the 80's. Detection is 10/11. So, seems like I have all the right attributes near as I can tell, yet, it's basically worthless.

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RE: Ground Attack (air mission) questions - 10/22/2015 11:01:25 AM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		You also can't expect a realistic picture from one iteration.
There are PLENTY of times I have witnessed ineffective bombing raids only to see the same squadron or group have a really effective mission two days later.
You want an accurate picture run 100 tests.
You want an even more accurate picture run 1000 tests.


Once you have complete air superiority the tried and true game method for reducing the garrison is to first eliminate their supply by bombing the airbase and getting supply hits.

Once they are OOS the bombing effects start to accumulate because the daily recovery of morale, fatigue and disruption spirals downward.

Vey few mechanisms work well in isolation.

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RE: Ground Attack (air mission) questions - 10/22/2015 1:46:15 PM   
sfatula

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 9/8/2015
From: Calera, OK
Status: offline 		Well, I don't have 100 iterations, I have around 15 now. So, I get supply hits by bombing not the ground units, but, the airbase? Even if it's a level 0?

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RE: Ground Attack (air mission) questions - 10/22/2015 2:26:20 PM   
dr.hal


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Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		Statistically speaking with 100 tries your outcome will be +/- 8% accurate, with 1000 tries your outcome will be +/- 3%. Same with political poles. However I believe one of the advantages from bombing is that the units hit will not recover moral which will impact fighting effectiveness over time... That's important if you are laying siege to a city hex.

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RE: Ground Attack (air mission) questions - 10/22/2015 3:20:01 PM   
Chickenboy


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Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		sfatula,

In your game versus the AI, the AI settings may have a bearing on the outcome. Historical difficulty abides by the PBEM rules as far as I know. Hard or Very Hard settings allow the computer side certain...erm...luxuries regarding the impact of low supplies on ground unit combat effectiveness and so forth.

This is why siege warfare under Hard or Very Hard settings against the AI will depart from normalcy. The AI cheats like a ******-****** in other words.

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RE: Ground Attack (air mission) questions - 10/22/2015 3:22:30 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sfatula

Well, I don't have 100 iterations, I have around 15 now. So, I get supply hits by bombing not the ground units, but, the airbase? Even if it's a level 0?


If the units already have no supply, there's no point in bombing the supply... bombing the units themselves will cause harm to their internal supply levels by making them shoot at you if they have any AA.

You can't bomb level 0 AFs, as far as I know, but you might be able to bomb level 0 ports? Or maybe you can do both. I've never really tried an AF, just a port.

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RE: Ground Attack (air mission) questions - 10/22/2015 4:32:02 PM   
sfatula

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 9/8/2015
From: Calera, OK
Status: offline 		So, the question is, what is the best way to eliminate all supply in a hex. Will ground attack do so, or, must I bomb the port or airfield? I've read several of your AARs Lokasenna.

It sounds like, for ground units (ignoring the air superiority aspects), job #1 is to eliminate all supply, job 2 might then be to simply reduce morale, add to disruption, etc. via ground attack mission? I just have not seen any great effect for those. I've never even killed a single squad.

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Post #: 9
RE: Ground Attack (air mission) questions - 10/22/2015 4:58:34 PM   
BattleMoose

 

Posts: 231
Joined: 2/17/2014
Status: offline 		Terrain is a very big factor. Bombing can be very effective in plains. In Jungle its next to useless.

An airbase/or port supply hit, reduces supply in the base by 1%! Bombing units makes their AAA shoot and use their supply that way. Bombing also forces a unit into "Combat Stance".

< Message edited by BattleMoose -- 10/22/2015 5:58:56 PM >

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RE: Ground Attack (air mission) questions - 10/22/2015 5:50:02 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
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From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sfatula

So, the question is, what is the best way to eliminate all supply in a hex. Will ground attack do so, or, must I bomb the port or airfield? I've read several of your AARs Lokasenna.

It sounds like, for ground units (ignoring the air superiority aspects), job #1 is to eliminate all supply, job 2 might then be to simply reduce morale, add to disruption, etc. via ground attack mission? I just have not seen any great effect for those. I've never even killed a single squad.


With Betty (and Japanese in general) bomb loads, you won't cause many casualties in terrain like Milne Bay. You need the target to be in woods with no forts, or in clear terrain, in order to cause appreciable casualties.

However, you will still cause disruption and perhaps fatigue from repeated bombings. This will also eventually drop their morale... The only way that I know of to get rid of the supply inside an LCU's internal stockpile is to make that LCU fight. They will gradually eat it all, but if you want to speed it up you need to engage them in combat (of any kind).

If there's supply sitting at an enemy base, you can bomb either port or airfield in an attempt to hit the supply depots.

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RE: Ground Attack (air mission) questions - 10/22/2015 7:29:33 PM   
GetAssista

 

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Joined: 9/19/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sfatula
So, the question is, what is the best way to eliminate all supply in a hex. Will ground attack do so, or, must I bomb the port or airfield? I've read several of your AARs Lokasenna.

#1 way is naval bombardment by several battleships. Testing against AI on Hard I've seen consistent complete obliteration of supply (from 5k to zero!) in 1 bombardment by 8 BBs. Jungle bases with 2-3 forts. Not that much damage to non-BF units but I can live with that.
#2 is repeated shock attacks, if you have AV to spare and little time
#3 is consistent aerial bombing from appropriate altitude to expend AA ammo. In bonus terrains with relatively low supply levels (~5k) more supply is killed that way than by airbase supply hits methinks.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BattleMoose
An airbase/or port supply hit, reduces supply in the base by 1%!
Was that way in WITP, not in WITP AE any more as far as I recall. Supply hit effect now depends on ammunition power too



< Message edited by GetAssista -- 10/22/2015 8:30:35 PM >

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RE: Ground Attack (air mission) questions - 10/22/2015 7:29:43 PM   
crsutton


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Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Bomb the base or port to first eliminate supply. Once you have a good idea that the supply is eliminated then you can bomb the ground units and disruption will rise and morale will lower. But bombing a supplied ground unit in good cover is basically wasting your own supply points of which the Japanese player does not have an endless amount. (In the campaign).

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RE: Ground Attack (air mission) questions - 10/22/2015 7:30:23 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		Yes ground combat burns supply for both sides including bombardment attacks.

The enemy counterbattery fire burns supply.

So those daily ground bombardments you undertake between assaults or in long prep for the first assault serve a very big purpose even when it looks like you are not causing any appreciable casualties.

It causes the enemy to burn supply.
It keeps morale down and suppresses recovery.
It keeps disruption high and suppresses recovery.
It keeps fatigue high and suppresses recovery.

Combine daily ground bombardments with daily air bombing and add in the occasional naval bombardment where applicable as in PM, and you have implemented the tried true, well tested game methodology for reducing a garrison and making it ripe for an assault.

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RE: Ground Attack (air mission) questions - 10/22/2015 7:59:55 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Bomb the base or port to first eliminate supply. Once you have a good idea that the supply is eliminated then you can bomb the ground units and disruption will rise and morale will lower. But bombing a supplied ground unit in good cover is basically wasting your own supply points of which the Japanese player does not have an endless amount. (In the campaign).


I've done it to make them shoot at my planes to burn their supplies on AA, such that they have less later when I attack them. It works... you have to know when it's worth it and when it's not, though.

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Post #: 15
RE: Ground Attack (air mission) questions - 10/23/2015 8:23:09 PM   
pompack


Posts: 2582
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline
ah yes, ground attack

What it does well
1) trains your pilots very quickly (if they survive)
2)Creates large amounts of disruption that significantly improve your infantry attacks

What it does not do well
1) inflict permanent casualties (there are a few, but it would take years to significantly reduce an infantry target that is dug in in heavy terrain(tanks in the open are something else))
2) reduce supply of the targeted hex (use an airfield attack for that)
3) gain more victory points than you lose through lost aircraft

So if you want to improve your attack odds, bomb them for four or five turns
If you want to improve your pilots, bomb them every day and skim off the improved pilots every week or so

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RE: Ground Attack (air mission) questions - 10/24/2015 7:39:28 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sfatula

Ok, enemy troops, one unit has 0 supply, the other has a couple, way under their needs. Maybe it is ironed out, but, that means essentially, I cannot do more damage than they can repair in a turn, even without supply or air cover. Even 75 planes attacking. Seems like I must be missing something?

According to this page, http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2350193, ground skill is irrelevant for the leader.

As far as pilot ground skills, most are in the 80's. Detection is 10/11. So, seems like I have all the right attributes near as I can tell, yet, it's basically worthless.


At least one thing I haven't seen mentioned here is weather. Weather has a large impact on bombing results, at least in my experience.


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