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3M14 Klub - 10/22/2015 11:45:20 AM   
janblanc

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 4/13/2009
Status: offline 		I recently have tried to modify the ingame "Iron Hand" scenario, adding ships from the caspian flotilla armed with Klub land attack cruise missiles - in wake of the recent usage of these weapons against targets in Syria. I noticed that the DB3000 database I have in game gives them a range of 160 nm, while in fact it should be somewhere near ten times that number (Targets were hit at 1500kms, so about 1000 miles although the actual maximum range should be something more than that). Also, only subs have mounts with this weapon - Gepard frigates and Buyan missile boats are armed with the anti ship versions only.

Shouldn't this be addressed somehow?

best regards
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RE: 3M14 Klub - 10/22/2015 1:44:26 PM   
Rongor

 

Posts: 451
Joined: 3/25/2014
Status: offline 		it was already reported in the DB3000 thread. Next DB may bring some improvements already (maybe even with todays release).

Btw. those land attack CMs are Kalibr, not Klub

< Message edited by Rongor -- 10/22/2015 2:45:21 PM >

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RE: 3M14 Klub - 10/23/2015 9:29:21 AM   
nico71


Posts: 121
Joined: 9/2/2003
Status: offline 		And is there any reliable source for this extraordinary claim?

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RE: 3M14 Klub - 10/23/2015 9:40:52 AM   
Dimitris

 

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline 		Hello,

There have been a lot of tweaks and updates for the Klub/Kalibr family and the UKSK VLS in the latest version of the DB3000, which will be released in a future update.

Thanks!

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RE: 3M14 Klub - 10/23/2015 11:53:53 AM   
janblanc

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 4/13/2009
Status: offline 		Ok, nice that it's going to be corrected.

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RE: 3M14 Klub - 10/23/2015 2:30:02 PM   
Rongor

 

Posts: 451
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quote:

ORIGINAL: nico71

And is there any reliable source for this extraordinary claim?

Despite not seeing what is so extraordinary about that "claim", you can check it in the announcements of the Russian Ministry of Defense, if that is reliable enough for you on that matter. For example here

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RE: 3M14 Klub - 10/23/2015 2:36:16 PM   
nico71


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Status: offline 		A factor of ten is quite a bit. But by 'independent' I mean in the scientific sense, not a source of a faction that is involved in an ongoing war. If that's even possible. I don't know.

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RE: 3M14 Klub - 10/23/2015 3:31:58 PM   
DeltaIV


Posts: 161
Joined: 3/3/2014
From: EUCCP
Status: offline 		Look at late 70's Tomahawk. Do you really expect a bit larger Russian CM introduced in 2010+ to perform worse ?


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RE: 3M14 Klub - 10/23/2015 3:56:45 PM   
nico71


Posts: 121
Joined: 9/2/2003
Status: offline 		Apparently the DB authors did until recently! Which begs the question how reliable the DB information is.

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RE: 3M14 Klub - 10/23/2015 4:09:36 PM   
DeltaIV


Posts: 161
Joined: 3/3/2014
From: EUCCP
Status: offline 		I wouldn't generalize. Available data concerning modern systems are always scarce, especially when we talk about Russian technology.

< Message edited by DeltaIV -- 10/23/2015 5:10:03 PM >

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RE: 3M14 Klub - 10/23/2015 4:13:44 PM   
nico71


Posts: 121
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Status: offline 		That's why I'm asking! I'm fairly new to CMANO and I want to know what I can expect from the DB. I don't expect precise data for the most modern systems but that this particular system was off by a factor of 10 surprised me.

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RE: 3M14 Klub - 10/23/2015 4:39:09 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nico71

That's why I'm asking! I'm fairly new to CMANO and I want to know what I can expect from the DB. I don't expect precise data for the most modern systems but that this particular system was off by a factor of 10 surprised me.


Pretty sure our sources are in the credits if you'd like to judge. I think our standard is higher than most.Ask around though.

Russian missiles are very difficult to pin down mostly because finding a credible source on them is an art and there tends to be a lot of conflicting information. Our standard is to not implement until we see pictures and reasonable stats and then adjust as information becomes clearer.

If you think we should approach it differently please let us know your suggestions.

Thanks


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RE: 3M14 Klub - 10/23/2015 4:45:34 PM   
nico71


Posts: 121
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Status: offline 		I didn't mean to criticize the work (far from it!) but wanted to know how this stuff works, especially when there are such huge swings in particular data.

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RE: 3M14 Klub - 10/23/2015 4:52:59 PM   
DeltaIV


Posts: 161
Joined: 3/3/2014
From: EUCCP
Status: offline 		Everyone is free to suggest DB changes based on reliable sources, there are forum threads designated for that exact purpose. I'm quite sure that both community and devs try hard to keep the DBs accurate.

For the rest, blame the media and the lack of general critical thinking. I'm quite sure that those who really need to know can make good educated guesses based on the missile specs (dimensions, warhead, etc.) and some insight into Russian missile technology.

If the devs presented the now-correct missile range in the DB before the "official" medial assesment, you would probably see some comments that the official range of the missile is a lot less and that they're exaggerating the performance of the Russian technology (or seem to be KGB agents ).

< Message edited by DeltaIV -- 10/23/2015 5:54:13 PM >

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RE: 3M14 Klub - 10/23/2015 5:03:14 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nico71

I didn't mean to criticize the work (far from it!) but wanted to know how this stuff works, especially when there are such huge swings in particular data.


If there are errors we correct them by next update.

Thanks

Mike

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RE: 3M14 Klub - 10/23/2015 5:11:14 PM   
Rongor

 

Posts: 451
Joined: 3/25/2014
Status: offline 		Hey nico71, I earlier only replied to your questioning of the name Kalibr. I admit I can't provide sources for all details of that weapon, so I was lucky you asked for the name only since I could very well answer that one. So all is good (I hope)

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RE: 3M14 Klub - 10/23/2015 5:15:03 PM   
Rongor

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk
Russian missiles are very difficult to pin down mostly because finding a credible source on them is an art and there tends to be a lot of conflicting information.

Couldn't agree more! researching russki weaponry takes hours and days and still you will find as much reasons to be confused as you will gain valuable enlightment.

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RE: 3M14 Klub - 10/23/2015 9:09:39 PM   
Rongor

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nico71

And is there any reliable source for this extraordinary claim?

Nico71, you managed to let me feel unsure again. This lead to my post here.
I agree that reliable sources may look different, but I guess that is a problem accompanying us now and in the future, regarding the implementation of new weapons, especially Russian inventions.

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RE: 3M14 Klub - 10/24/2015 1:26:38 AM   
Triode

 

Posts: 283
Joined: 9/26/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rongor


This lead to my post here.



quote:



The further break down is
Kalibr-S or Klub-S for a sub launched missile
Kalibr-N or Klub-N for a ship launched missile
Kalibr-A or Klub-A for the air launched missile


Kalibr-PL (not Kalibr-S) is name for whole system that incude sub launched missiles of Kalibr family and systems ensuring launch of these missiles from a submarine (like 3R-14PN,SM-878 etc.) same for Klub-S ,only with export missiles and systems

Kalibr-NK (not Kalibr-N)and Klub-N for systems with ship lauched missiles

Kalibr-A and Klub-A dont exist, this is only bait for Indian money ,they dont pay for that so this things dont exist

Also you forgot to add Kalibr-M and Klub-M (shore based complex):
http://concern-agat.ru/cache/com_zoo/images/Club-M_01_869d07477051977356d35a249a109699.jpg

and Kalibr-K and Klub-K (container launched versions)

It is amusing to see how often people in th West forget this little thing that change everything,
you should not build a big warship to have ability to launch hundreds of missiles from Kalibr or Klab family,
just take any vessel put Kalibr-K or Klub-K containers on it, raise Navy flag and bang, you have warship capable of launching Kalibr/Klub missiles. Cheapest firepower in the world .

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Post #: 19
RE: 3M14 Klub - 10/24/2015 7:15:15 AM   
Rongor

 

Posts: 451
Joined: 3/25/2014
Status: offline 		I just deleted that breakdown in my DB post. It doesn`t really play a role regarding the game anyways. Thanks for the insight!

Being one of your mentioned people from the West, I have to say that probably many of us don't forget but simply have a hard time to get decent insight in some of the eastern schematics.

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RE: 3M14 Klub - 10/24/2015 11:49:39 AM   
Zaslon

 

Posts: 283
Joined: 6/14/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: nico71

A factor of ten is quite a bit. But by 'independent' I mean in the scientific sense, not a source of a faction that is involved in an ongoing war. If that's even possible. I don't know.

It's not possible. Independent sources don't exist here in the scientific sense. All data come from public sources, so it's propaganda.

But as westerners we believe the info from western companies (based on quantity, not quality of the info) and we deny all info from russian companies when they claim that they developed a TLAM (3M-14) with at least 1.500 km of range because is an extraordinary claim!!! Extraordinary? We aren't objectives, it's natural but we need to make some corrections in order to be more close to the reality. I don't know what's your opinion but I want a CMANO with a DB close as possible to the real stuff. And a 3M-14 Kalibr missile with 1.600 km for example is more close than 160 km as we known at this moment.

I hope that in DB441, 3M-14 have a reasonable range (1.500 km + 5%-10% km). Plus a factor because we know that they strike targets from 1.500 km but they didn't launch the missiles at his maximum range.

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RE: 3M14 Klub - 10/24/2015 12:21:16 PM   
AlmightyTallest

 

Posts: 279
Joined: 2/25/2014
Status: offline 		Some of the disparity in range can be attributed to the flight profiles of some versions of the missile. If it's going to go subsonic for the entire flight, you'll get a much longer range for example.

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Post #: 22
RE: 3M14 Klub - 10/24/2015 12:52:30 PM   
Dimitris

 

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zaslon
And a 3M-14 Kalibr missile with 1.600 km for example is more close than 160 km as we known at this moment.


Actually both figures are close to the mark. The domestic 3M14 Kalibr has a > 1000nm range while the export-oriented, MTCR-compliant 3M14E/KE Klub has IIRC a 160nm range.

(They are also physically different. Kalibr is ~8m long and Klub is ~6m. It makes sense to assume that most of the extra length on the Kalibr is used for fuel. In this sense they are similar to Tomahawk and its aborted "tactical" derivative, MRASM.)

< Message edited by Sunburn -- 10/24/2015 1:54:55 PM >

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RE: 3M14 Klub - 10/24/2015 5:24:58 PM   
Zaslon

 

Posts: 283
Joined: 6/14/2015
Status: offline 		I am glad to read that you fixed the Kalibr weapon system.

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