RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete?

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RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete? - 11/8/2015 1:21:41 AM

Big B

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LMAO at that one

Agreed - no shortage of idiots out there...

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK
IMVHO, the biggest threat to the US CV fleet would be explosive laden speedboats, you have to get near to shore at some point and there are plenty of idiots out there!!

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Post #: 31

RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete? - 11/8/2015 1:50:01 AM

witpaemail

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I cant see "national drone carriers". Yeah, it might be a good idea to convert a few of the helo carriers to this purpose, but 2 major powers shooting it out with drones isnt likely to happen. The weak link with drones is someone has to control it. That communication can be jammed or otherwise interfered with. It would suck huge for a country to invest in a mess of drone carriers only to find the enemy has the ability to over-ride and take control of those drones and use them against you.

That was nearly the case in Iraq. The bad guys had already learned how to tap into the camera signals and could see what the operator could see. It wouldnt have taken much to actually take control of it. Therein lies the danger of weaponizing drones.

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Post #: 32

RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete? - 11/9/2015 6:08:00 AM

Texican

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Aircraft carriers don't rule anything in equally matched, high-tech standoffs. They go bye-bye real fast. The sub is the strategic weapon.

However, in dealing with 2nd and 3rd world countries, aircraft carriers do just fine. And that's the reality we have right now.

But, if there were ever a war between technological equivalent superpowers (U.S. vs. Europe is only scenario that could happen, China and Russia are not up to par), I would think that the CVN's would be best staying close to home.

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RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete? - 12/28/2015 9:37:20 PM

goblinteasemaid

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Ah yes, so right

remember USS Cole in Aden yr 2000

google it

sorry guys forgot to quote

< Message edited by goblinteasemaid -- 12/28/2015 10:41:45 PM >

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Post #: 34

RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete? - 12/28/2015 11:09:34 PM

desicat

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Drones, UAV's, missiles, blah blah blah. Much like Amateurs talking tactics and Professionals talking logistics, in the next war electronic countermeasures and jamming will strike the "gadgets" from the sky and humans operating machines will decide the conflict.

< Message edited by desicat -- 12/29/2015 12:10:50 AM >

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Post #: 35

RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete? - 12/28/2015 11:23:50 PM

goblinteasemaid

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And your evidence is....

Amateurs, that you deride, now have access to drones for a few $100, with an unprecedented level of sophistication. Think what threat they will pose in a few years in the hands of our greatest EU problem ISIS.

I see a whole new species unmanned tactical devices, just look at Boston dynamics and where thats going, a nuclear powered DOG? Creep around, no need for resupply or pee-breaks, what kind weapon would he carry?

I still can't get my head around the Gotland class AIP sub and its implications

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Post #: 36

RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete? - 12/28/2015 11:35:16 PM

desicat

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Last time I checked the CVN was a "Blue Water" asset operating well offshore. The next major war, one where CVN's could be threatened will kick off with all satellites blinded/destroyed and the electromagnetic spectrum severely degraded. Drones will not be a factor for ships operating over the horizon.

Drones may be a problem for the Army in close-in city fighting, but they will be blind out at sea. The serious war fighters in the Navy hate the LCS as it is too dependent upon electronic force multipliers.

War games always either play with limited or no jamming allowed, otherwise the vast majority of assets are of no value and the "game" gets really deadly very fast.

Edit: as far as enemy subs are concerned (both robotic and manned), they have to get past their USN brethren first, not an insignificant feat.

< Message edited by desicat -- 12/29/2015 12:47:18 AM >

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Post #: 37

RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete? - 12/29/2015 12:04:43 AM

goblinteasemaid

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What amazes me, call me naive, is that these games assume you can use a tactical nuke, without unleashing grave strategic consequences. Are we forgetting the geo political dimension. The day any power choses a nuke , is the start of Armageddon. Thats not in your scripts.

You want to take out satellites with a high altitude EMP?

Remember the Korean war. The Chinese overwhelmed the field by sheer weight of numbers, sending in more people than than we had bullets. Thats what we are facing in Europe.

The joker is that we created this scenario

We took out Sadam H (former great CIA buddy BTW) and had no plan in place for the peace. I was in the area at the time.

We intervened in Libya and took out Ghadafi - why?

Now we've got Syria and a war that will go on 10+ years and cost EU billions

Just where do all these high tech war toys figure?

But I really like Boston Dynamics, as a former control systems and AI engineer I can really appreciate the incredible skill

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Post #: 38

RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete? - 12/29/2015 12:18:23 AM

desicat

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They are not in "my" scripts, there are War plans on the shelf.

CVN's are strategic assets, and if the scenario is dire enough to threaten them I would not expect GPS or any other satellites to be around to threaten them. You called for the deployment of tactical nukes, not me. The deployment of tactical nukes in an EMP role is the jackhammer of jamming, there are other ways that use much more finesse.

The political interventions that you are critical of were most assuredly not supported by the JCS and Theater commands behind the scenes. This excludes taking out SH, as the National Security Strategy specifically addressed that situation and it led directly to the Green Revolution in Lebanon and Iran, both missed strategic opportunities - a far cry from "no plan".

The big boy jammers and WARM modes aren't needed in the small fry engagements currently in vogue, but if a CVN was in danger then all bets would be off.

< Message edited by desicat -- 12/29/2015 1:50:23 AM >

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Post #: 39

RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete? - 12/29/2015 1:31:01 AM

Dili

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The issue in Middle East(and North Africa) has much more to do with region/religion/political dynamics than what US or anyone else did or do. Arab Socialism failed and Islamism returned and with it the sunni-shia fight, etc. Saddam (81 years old today) would be at end of his life if not already dead naturally or by a coup.

If a carrier has to enter the persian gulf then it is always at risk.

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Post #: 40

RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete? - 12/29/2015 2:53:12 AM

geofflambert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: goblinteasemaid

What amazes me, call me naive, is that these games assume you can use a tactical nuke, without unleashing grave strategic consequences. Are we forgetting the geo political dimension. The day any power choses a nuke , is the start of Armageddon. Thats not in your scripts.

OK, I'm up to satisfying many requirements, Mr. Na�ve. Is there any other thing you wanted?

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Post #: 41

RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete? - 12/29/2015 2:59:06 AM

geofflambert

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I think we need to develop submersible craft that can operate drones that are capable of delivering 'Hellfire missiles'. That seems pretty basic and we need to know how to do it even if we choose not to.

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Post #: 42

RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete? - 12/29/2015 3:05:47 AM

goblinteasemaid

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

quote:

ORIGINAL: goblinteasemaid

What amazes me, call me naive, is that these games assume you can use a tactical nuke, without unleashing grave strategic consequences. Are we forgetting the geo political dimension. The day any power choses a nuke , is the start of Armageddon. Thats not in your scripts.

OK, I'm up to satisfying many requirements, Mr. Na�ve. Is there any other thing you wanted?

OK General, You lose off a tactical nuke, what are going to be the consequences?

OBTW can anyone advise me if a tactical nuke has ever been set off in anger?

< Message edited by goblinteasemaid -- 12/29/2015 4:08:44 AM >

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Post #: 43

RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete? - 12/29/2015 10:21:44 AM

HMSWarspite

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Only two nukes have ever been set off in anger: 1945, Japan. The rest are tests.

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RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete? - 12/29/2015 10:28:59 AM

tocaff

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Sub drivers claim that they are hunters and everyone else is a target.

Carriers aren't obsolete, but the offense is almost always a step ahead of the defense. 1 carrier is weaker than 2 operating together, etc. as AE has taught us. Where you put your assets also has a lot to do with mission capabilities and the asset's ability to survive the environment. A ship the size of a modern CVN isn't so easy to sink, but to be put out of commission is another story.

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Post #: 45

RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete? - 12/29/2015 12:35:01 PM

goblinteasemaid

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Hi TC, much appreciated your AAR, but it then reminded me how the use of Tactical Nuke missiles makes the whole theatre take a quantum leap into wholly unrealistic simulations.
Conventional warfare, as described in your AAR, can be realistic in CMANO, I guess, with the limitation of not being able to sim the effect of ground forces (maybe there is a workaround here)

Playing war games with nukes we are not going to use??????
Can we dare imagine a skirmish between Israel and Iran

North Korea lobbing a dirty bomb over the DMZ

2020 hindsight is grand but will I get to see that

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Post #: 46

RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete? - 12/29/2015 1:11:11 PM

btd64

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I think we need to develop submersible craft that can operate drones that are capable of delivering 'Hellfire missiles'. That seems pretty basic and we need to know how to do it even if we choose not to.

Remember that Sifi show back in the 70's called UFO. They could launch interceptors from under water. So how about a submersible aircraft carrier....GP

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RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete? - 12/29/2015 4:19:45 PM

Olorin

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I don't necessarily agree with what is stated in these links, but I thik they are relevant:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002
http://exiledonline.com/the-war-nerd-this-is-how-the-carriers-will-die/

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RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete? - 12/29/2015 7:50:35 PM

desicat

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quote:

ORIGINAL: General Patton

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I think we need to develop submersible craft that can operate drones that are capable of delivering 'Hellfire missiles'. That seems pretty basic and we need to know how to do it even if we choose not to.

Remember that Sifi show back in the 70's called UFO. They could launch interceptors from under water. So how about a submersible aircraft carrier....GP

Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea, flying sub and all!

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Post #: 49

RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete? - 12/29/2015 11:49:19 PM

goblinteasemaid

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Many thanx for the links

How long will it be before we have semi autonomous drones carrying serious payloads

The Swedish AIP Gotland sub was able to sneak up under the Nimitz and effectively defeat it during some recent embarrassing war games

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RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete? - 12/30/2015 1:00:28 AM

desicat

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quote:

ORIGINAL: goblinteasemaid

Many thanx for the links

How long will it be before we have semi autonomous drones carrying serious payloads

The Swedish AIP Gotland sub was able to sneak up under the Nimitz and effectively defeat it during some recent embarrassing war games

I wouldn't want to have to rely on any kind of drone (direct or semi autonomous) for fire support or even surveillance against a first world threat.

Some "games" have built in deficiencies to test tactics or theories, I'm not overly worried about robotic or regular subs defeating CVN force protection assets in the near term.

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RE: Semi OT..Are carriers obsolete? - 12/30/2015 6:29:40 AM

Dili

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There is a reason USN rented Swedish submarines. Anyway sinking US carriers is not a novelty in Nato exercises, there were several cases reported in 80's. AIP only increases the odds. It also don't go unnoticed how sometimes a submarine has a close encounter with a ship showing how even the best sonars that are in nuclear submarines fail to detect close surfaced ships.

Water is not a homogeneous medium, sound properties vary with thermo-climes and salinity.

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