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Convoy System does not work - 10/8/2015 12:19:24 AM

Aranthus

Posts: 164
Joined: 4/6/2014
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It is Sept, 1939. Britain is trying to get resources to factories and oil to save locations. Trying to get the Meine Grande oil to England. I have convoys in the Faroes Gap, but the program insists on sending them through the Bay of Biscay so that other resources can't get through. I want to change the convoy route, but the program won't let me. Instead I get a message box stating that I can't change an all rail/land route! This is just one of the problems with the system. The program persists in using oil for production instead of using non-oil resources and saving the oil. It also sends resources on routes that prevent other resources from getting through, and won't allow changes. And If it has a choice of ports to ship a resource from it uses the port that results in the unnecessary use of a convoy that also prevents other resources from shipping. It seems designed to make it more difficult to ship resources. I thought that was the job of the enemy. It is outrageous and disgraceful that this long after the release of the game, that these huge defects have not been fixed.

Original mis-posted in general folder. sorry.

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RE: Convoy System does not work - 10/8/2015 5:33:53 PM

Centuur

Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
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The problem here is that at the start of the game, the program doesn't give the best calculation possible for the CW.

You should be able to fix this, by putting all resources which go overseas on idle and than start with the resources which have the longest route to the UK to send them there. Usually, those should use the Bay of Biscay.

If the convoys there have been used up, force the other resources through the FarOes Gap by using the route option (where you force those resources to use the sea-area's you want them go through).

It takes some time, but in the end, you should be able to get things right.

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Peter

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Post #: 2

RE: Convoy System does not work - 10/8/2015 6:00:37 PM

Aranthus

Posts: 164
Joined: 4/6/2014
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I do that, however, in some cases (the Meine Grande oil and some of the African resources) the computer won't let me change the route, and I get a message that I can't change an all land route. So far the fix I have is to re-boot the game in an earlier phase or wait until the next impulse for the CW.

(in reply to Centuur)

Post #: 3

RE: Convoy System does not work - 10/8/2015 8:29:21 PM

paulderynck

Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline

I've been working with your save game and got everything to work as Overrides. (Clear Defaults and Override all to idle. Then set each Override and Recompute.) My usual process is to then change them all to Defaults, but I'm having some problems with the convoy routes when I do that. I'll be making a detailed report to Steve with multiple save games at the various steps. I think it helps to take a very structured approach. Mine is:
1. The 5 resources that don't require convoys to produce and the Persian oil which at this point can go overland.
2. The "one hop" saving of the 3 oil in the Far East.
3. All the resources that must go through the Bay of Biscay.
4. All the resources that then must go through the Faroes and will fill out the factories for production, oil last (3 oil are needed to max production).
5. The final two oil that will go through the Faroes and be saved in the UK.

I'm pretty sure the message that says you can't change an all rail route is happening because after each recompute, a different resource is highlighted (thus selected) instead of the one you were just working on. I agree that is really annoying, but you have to ensure the resource you're working on is re-selected.

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RE: Convoy System does not work - 10/8/2015 9:18:57 PM

paulderynck

Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline

Here is your game with all the routes as Defaults except the three resources from Canada which for unknown reasons change their route from Faroes to Bay of Biscay when I try to set them as Default. Since fixing that means finding one you already had fixed but reverts to North Atlantic-Faroes at the same time - so you have to fix both together...

Well that's just too much trouble to do three times over when everything else is the way you want it (with the possible exception of the destination city for saving oil, or you really care a lot about which resource gets produced at which factory).

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< Message edited by paulderynck -- 10/8/2015 11:00:24 PM >

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Paul

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RE: Convoy System does not work - 10/11/2015 6:24:04 AM

Aranthus

Posts: 164
Joined: 4/6/2014
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The problem is much worse than that. I am now trying to ship five American resources to France. I have five extra convoys in East Coast, North Atlantic and Bay of Biscay. But instead of sending the resources through any of the major ports on the East Coast, the program insists on sending four of them through New Bern on the Caribbean, thereby increasing the convoy line by one each, which means that the CW gets four less resources than it should. And when I try to change the route, I get the same message that I can't change the route because it's an all land route! This is a serious bug that needs looking at.

(in reply to paulderynck)

Post #: 6

RE: Convoy System does not work - 10/11/2015 9:51:50 AM

joshuamnave

Posts: 967
Joined: 1/8/2014
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The convoy system is a complete disaster. Incredibly difficult/non intuitive to use, clunky, and inefficient at best, but so long as the designer insists that it's working as intended if we weren't all too stupid to use it correctly, it will never get fixed.

(in reply to Aranthus)

Post #: 7

RE: Convoy System does not work - 10/11/2015 12:36:48 PM

AlbertN

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline

I agree that the Convoy system is very often troublesome to use - especially sometimes it simply refuses to take the orders of the player. (Especially in the Trades from Power to Power, but not just that).

But in the end of the day, for the 95% of the time, it works. It can be a timeloss - but that is a different tale.

As Pauldeneryck said - at times one has to use the Override function, because the Default simply does not work. Which means until a situation is established (usually more convoys get on the map and you get fattier convoy pipelines) the Override has to be redone turn by turn.

(in reply to joshuamnave)

Post #: 8

RE: Convoy System does not work - 10/26/2015 9:32:13 PM

RudiTheGerman

Posts: 41
Joined: 6/24/2015
Status: offline

I know that developers like efficently working algorithms. But would it be so bad for the convoy System to be completely Manual.
Just considering that the valuable bug Fixing time could be used elsewhere.

One other mindblowing idea.
Find the Minimum set of rule and Option to make the game playable (like no oil, no Special Units, no planes in flame, ....)
and only if this works stable, add the Options that make the game more enjoyable.

(in reply to AlbertN)

Post #: 9

RE: Convoy System does not work - 11/9/2015 11:20:59 PM

palne

Posts: 73
Joined: 9/18/2007
Status: offline

Optional rules selection and the convoy system really aren't correlated. That's not to say the convoy system couldn't use some work. Some thoughts:

1. The over-ride system could use some work. That is devilishly hard to understand. Just redesign it a bit so you get more feedback about what is going on and why.
2. Be able to "zoom the map" when viewing the entire convoy system. It is really heard to see single-pixel resources and then trace them to the port being used for convoying.
3. created a color-coded system where you can select a specific resource and its convoy path lights up so you can just see it's route.
4. create a more intuitive system where once you have selected a resource's route, you can lock it. Then number the route. Ex: South Africa to London factory (check)...now Lock it eating up a series of convoys in the route.
5. Create a system so you can see who's convoy is being used on a side.
6. When a resource is using a UK convoy that will end up being commandeered for delivery of trade agreement resources, it would be nice to know.

The convoy system is such a big deal for the UK. And, there is a real design deficiency that allows for a lucking roll in the Bay of Biscay or North Atlantic and the wiping out of oodles of UK convoys just as a turn ends. This really confuses "momentary" and "duration" events. The "moment" is the enemy attack, and subsequent aborting of an entire sea zone. And the "duration" event is the individual convoys still fully laden immediately traveling to a UK homeport but their cargoes lost. It's not like the convoys dumped their cargoes like drug runners in fast-boats. The convoys scattered and made it home..ya! so give the UK their production values. I know, its the "rules" and they supposedly work "just fine." But, I for one, wish there were an optional rule so the UK did not get hosed just because the Axis ended the turn with a lucky die roll.

The reason this can be so bad, in addition to the lose of up to 10+bp's, is because it screws the UK gearing as well. The effect is just so out of proportion to the die roll.

Convoys taking 4 turns to complete compounds this event into a potentially game-distorting scene where the UK has a ship gearing of 2, but needs to build 10+convoys and that can't happen for 7 turns--or 20% of the game length...

I think the optional rules should be:

1. no gearing limits for convoys--just like there are unlimited numbers of convoys, there should be no gearing to build them.
2. a "convoy deploy" subphase after the RTB phase. This would all all nations to take a "convoy only" naval move. If they enter enemy ships staying at sea, just divert to that subphase per usual. This would allow near suicidal resupply to occur if somebody really needed to get a convoy out to sea.
3. Allow convoys that return to a homecountry port as an "abort" to carry their resource with them.

PS: Japan gets even more screwed than the UK when the Sea of Japan gets smoked just before a turn ends. So, both sides get a break..UK and Japan.

< Message edited by palne -- 11/10/2015 12:35:05 AM >

(in reply to RudiTheGerman)

Post #: 10

RE: Convoy System does not work - 11/10/2015 5:01:22 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: palne

Optional rules selection and the convoy system really aren't correlated. That's not to say the convoy system couldn't use some work. Some thoughts:

1. The over-ride system could use some work. That is devilishly hard to understand. Just redesign it a bit so you get more feedback about what is going on and why.
2. Be able to "zoom the map" when viewing the entire convoy system. It is really heard to see single-pixel resources and then trace them to the port being used for convoying.
3. created a color-coded system where you can select a specific resource and its convoy path lights up so you can just see it's route.
4. create a more intuitive system where once you have selected a resource's route, you can lock it. Then number the route. Ex: South Africa to London factory (check)...now Lock it eating up a series of convoys in the route.
5. Create a system so you can see who's convoy is being used on a side.
6. When a resource is using a UK convoy that will end up being commandeered for delivery of trade agreement resources, it would be nice to know.

The convoy system is such a big deal for the UK. And, there is a real design deficiency that allows for a lucking roll in the Bay of Biscay or North Atlantic and the wiping out of oodles of UK convoys just as a turn ends. This really confuses "momentary" and "duration" events. The "moment" is the enemy attack, and subsequent aborting of an entire sea zone. And the "duration" event is the individual convoys still fully laden immediately traveling to a UK homeport but their cargoes lost. It's not like the convoys dumped their cargoes like drug runners in fast-boats. The convoys scattered and made it home..ya! so give the UK their production values. I know, its the "rules" and they supposedly work "just fine." But, I for one, wish there were an optional rule so the UK did not get hosed just because the Axis ended the turn with a lucky die roll.

The reason this can be so bad, in addition to the lose of up to 10+bp's, is because it screws the UK gearing as well. The effect is just so out of proportion to the die roll.

Convoys taking 4 turns to complete compounds this event into a potentially game-distorting scene where the UK has a ship gearing of 2, but needs to build 10+convoys and that can't happen for 7 turns--or 20% of the game length...

I think the optional rules should be:

1. no gearing limits for convoys--just like there are unlimited numbers of convoys, there should be no gearing to build them.
2. a "convoy deploy" subphase after the RTB phase. This would all all nations to take a "convoy only" naval move. If they enter enemy ships staying at sea, just divert to that subphase per usual. This would allow near suicidal resupply to occur if somebody really needed to get a convoy out to sea.
3. Allow convoys that return to a homecountry port as an "abort" to carry their resource with them.

PS: Japan gets even more screwed than the UK when the Sea of Japan gets smoked just before a turn ends. So, both sides get a break..UK and Japan.

#3 exists. Using the global map and Route view in the Production Planning form, select the resource from the list of resources, and choose the 1 Route radio button.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to palne)

Post #: 11

RE: Convoy System does not work - 11/10/2015 8:54:57 PM

paulderynck

Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline

If all the recommendations here were followed, when playing those options, Germany and Italy should not bother building subs as the BoA would be pointless for the axis.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 11/10/2015 9:57:00 PM >

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Post #: 12

RE: Convoy System does not work - 11/10/2015 10:47:18 PM

Larry Smith

Posts: 203
Joined: 4/14/2001
From: Williams Lake, BC, Canada
Status: offline

Actually, the Battle of the Atlantic used to move more smoothly with the old Fifth Edition. Back then, all the Sub attacks and ASW was handled at the turn's end, and all one had to do was ensure that by turn's end, escorts were in place. Subs could attack a pipeline, "killing" resources and BP in transit, and occasionally, killing an entire section of convoy. Then during the next turn, the owner had to replace that section by converting a TRANS to a CONV. There was no worry about getting the bits all the way to the far-flung corners of the globe - the new CONV was just put in place. And sometimes, SUBS got lost - more as the game progressed, and the ASW abilities were assumed to improve. It also made no difference how much was going through a section of convoy pipeline - 1 resource, or 100, it was all the same as long as there was a CONV marker in each Sea Zone of the route. Finally, SUB's stayed at sea all the time, so even without an attack, just being out there was enough to draw away enemy assets.

The new system is quite taxing, and I think the requirement to return-to-port your CP before you can move them further out is what really overtaxes the system. CP at sea in one zone should be able to move to another zone in range, and still remain at sea, without having to put into port first [and also being re-organized before moving back out again]. This would help the CW and Japan greatly. I also believe that they should be granted a final convoy-only move at the close of any turn, just to patch up such holes. But that's more of a WiF issue than a MWif issue. There was a time when I thought they were going to go as far as to introduce a "Cargo in Flames" where every resource and BP was tracked, moving a set distance each phase or turn!

I'm just glad they never went that far!

(in reply to paulderynck)

Post #: 13

RE: Convoy System does not work - 11/11/2015 1:22:15 AM

palne

Posts: 73
Joined: 9/18/2007
Status: offline

Larry,

Boy, I forgot about those rules....many years ago for me. But, yes it is coming back to me.

Remember the d6 combat charts! Talk about a frustrating. I remember rolling a 1 on Chunking one time and using my Japanese "reroll" and rolling a 6! It was like hearing "The Japanese win the Pennant...The Japanese win the pennant...."!

(in reply to Larry Smith)

Post #: 14

RE: Convoy System does not work - 11/11/2015 1:25:20 AM

palne

Posts: 73
Joined: 9/18/2007
Status: offline

Thanks Steve. I thought only the route was color coded, and it was not necessarily associated with a specific resource. I'll go back and check this out. I was talking about when there are like 3 resource that could use 4 ports and 1 resource can only use 1 port, the matching color of resource and route would let me know that in fact, the one resource that must go out of that port will use the convoy chain from that port, and the other 3 resource will go out of the various other 3 ports.

(in reply to paulderynck)

Post #: 15