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A small rant - 11/12/2015 5:27:00 PM

Xilana

Posts: 36
Joined: 5/7/2012
Status: offline

I'll start off by stating this is not an attempt to set off a range war, just my honest feelings regarding this game.

The second world war was fought on the principal of Germany first, Japan second. When we see AARs occurring where Hawaii is invaded, or even better the North American continent invaded the game loses credibility in that there would be a paradigm shift to Japan first and Germany second with a marked increase in forces diverted to the Pacific/West Coast theater. These strategies would in effect become suicidal.

I understand that the game is designed to provide ways for Japan to win, but it becomes a tedious affair when the game enters the realm of alternative history novels. It would be a credit to this simulation if it were balanced in such a way that realistic r+d as well as tactical strategies were the norm, as opposed to magically allowing Japan to overrun China despite the inability to do so in reality, make all the correct planes early, and invade places they never would have without paying severe penalties.

My apologies for the rant, I'm just getting annoyed at the recent strategy run of ignoring the Japanese strategic objectives that the war was based upon.

< Message edited by venividivici10044a -- 11/12/2015 6:28:27 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: A small rant - 11/12/2015 5:39:47 PM

Jorge_Stanbury

Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline

The AI will never try to invade the West coast, and if you are playing PBEM, you can discuss with your opponent if you wish the game to be more or less historical.

And a Japanese player will face significant consequences if he decides to invade North America. Most people that do it are veteran players that want to get a new challenge, it might not be advisable, but it is certainly fun.

I agree with you on China... which is not the games' forte. Thanksfully this is a secondary theatre at most.

With regards to R&D... no:
there are 2 game options PDU "on/ off" and Realistic R&D "on/ off"
if you play with PDU off and realistc R&D, then the game will force you to relatively historical paths for plane upgrades.

< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 11/12/2015 6:58:27 PM >

(in reply to Xilana)

Post #: 2

RE: A small rant - 11/12/2015 6:15:11 PM

atheory

Posts: 210
Joined: 6/5/2006
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It's all good. I have found there are no perfect strategy games that cover ww2. WITP comes the closest to my perfect love child of one. There are lots of options open to both sides and if you throw out the historical book, the game really becomes something worth exploring.

If Japan is invading Hawaii, that means he isn't invading some where else. The allied player could have his carrier fleets defending hawaii/west coast. use intel reports, use subs and PBY for scouting ahead. etc.etc.. or landings are successful, blockade hawaii and starve his troops, and later liberate the islands.

The beautiful thing about WITP in my view is the amount of open-ended options available.

I do enjoy linked based campaign games, and I think you would too, but there just isn't really any good ones out there. they are usually too arcade like imho.

You will find players here that have an attitude towards realism, just seek them out in the opponents wanted section. House rules and what not are available to mitigate some gamey stuff you might find in AARs

(in reply to Jorge_Stanbury)

Post #: 3

RE: A small rant - 11/12/2015 7:14:40 PM

RogerJNeilson

Posts: 1277
Joined: 4/12/2012
From: Bedlington, Northumberland, UK
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When you are going to go into a PBEM game you really need to discuss at some length your view of how you want to play the game with any prospective opponent. My two regular opponents have been my opponents since the game was released - the original WITP that is, I have seen other games close down quite early on becuase the expectation of the style of the game is not shared. Given the immense time spent on a game you need to be sure the opponent shares your views, otherwise it will end in a messy WITP 'divorce'.

Roger

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An unplanned dynasty: Roger Neilson, Roger Neilson 11, Roger Neilson 3 previous posts 898+1515 + 1126 = 3539.....Finally completed my game which started the day WITP:AE was released

(in reply to atheory)

Post #: 4

RE: A small rant - 11/12/2015 7:49:00 PM

paradigmblue

Posts: 784
Joined: 9/16/2014
From: Fairbanks, Alaska
Status: offline

There are many players who would agree with you. Those players primarily want to play WitP:AE as a simulation of the war as it occurred, without it expanding to non-historical bounds. If that is the game you want to play, that's fantastic. You should play the game in the way that brings you the most satisfaction and enjoyment.

However, there are many other players that enjoy the what-if factor of the game that brings it outside of those historical constraints, whether that be in a stock game where the Japanese player makes moves that would not be plausible historically or in a mod where the combatants are given non-historical capabilities. If that's the game they want to play, that's fantastic too. They should play the game in the way that brings them the most satisfaction and enjoyment.

What I don't like seeing is when people try to dictate a "right" or "wrong" way to play the game. Everyone has different tastes in what they're looking for out of a wargame, and what brings one person enjoyment won't be another's cup of tea. The trick here is to make sure that in selecting a PBEM opponent that they have roughly the same outlook on the game as you do.

Personally, as primarily an allied player (General Patton can attest to how poor I am at playing Japan!), part of what I enjoy about the game is the very thing that you don't like - the capability of Japan to make gains that were not possible historically. It brings a tenseness to the experience that I enjoy, where every move I make I have to wonder how far the Japanese player is going to go, and how I can try and prevent it or make it painful for them to do so.

When you see a Japanese player threaten the West Coast or invade the Hawaiian islands and think "tedious", I think "wow, it's really neat that they were able to use Japan's OOB to accomplish that objective". In short, to each their own.

(in reply to RogerJNeilson)

Post #: 5

RE: A small rant - 11/12/2015 10:12:40 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

The American first policy was a loose policy at best. During the first year of the war the bulk of American resources were sent to the Pacific. After the heavy naval losses in the Guadalcanal campaign a lot of American ships were shifted into the Pacific theater to fill the holes. And once the American effort began to steam roll in 1944, it was pretty had to turn off the faucet and the Pacific theater got plenty of resources in spite of the fact that Germany was still putting up a good fight. But yes, you are right, if there were Japanese troops in India, Australia or the Hawaiian Islands-even more resources than we see in the game would have been diverted to the Pacific.

Your a little late to the party though, this rant was getting plenty of air play seven years ago.

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Post #: 6

RE: A small rant - 11/12/2015 10:33:12 PM

Zorch

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Can I make my own 'small rant'?

I resent having to scroll all the way down the forum page to get to the WitP-AE section. Look at all the 'New Releases' that have no activity at all. Let's petition Matrix to move WitP-AE up to its rightful place at the top!

I now return this thread to its topic.

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 7

RE: A small rant - 11/12/2015 10:38:08 PM

Lowpe

Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: venividivici10044a
My apologies for the rant, I'm just getting annoyed at the recent strategy run of ignoring the Japanese strategic objectives that the war was based upon.

In my game versus Jocke, I picked up from Olorin after a masterful opening.

To say he ignored Japanese strategic objectives is to miss the boat completely. The SRA was conquered as was Magwe. And conquered very early and on a ruthless time schedule.

There is only one game I am aware of in pbem that North America was invaded, and that of course turn out very badly for the Empire. Beer made me do it.

Pax Mondo has an AI game where he activated the emergency Allied forces for North America, and he greatly rues that day -- it was an invasion too far.

There are now 2 games that I know of, in pbem currently, where Pearl has fallen. 2 out of how many? Nobody that I am aware of has taken all of India. I can think of several where the invasion of Pearl lost the game for Japan, and not all that far back in history Pearl was deemed invincible.

I can think of one game with an early invasion of Soviets (I mean really early).

I am aware of 2, two, Japanese auto-victories.

You should read Captain Cruft's excellent AAR about a Hive defense of Japan which is also a strategy/tactic that JFB's pursue. Are you upset about that style of play too?

Another game, the GreyJoy/Radar classic has GreyJoy invading Hokkaido despite being trounced everywhere else in the game by Japan.

Methinks you protest too much.

Relax, have fun and find the opponent that matches your wishes, but don't begrudge others their fun.

(in reply to Xilana)

Post #: 8

RE: A small rant - 11/13/2015 12:51:45 AM

sfatula

Posts: 100
Joined: 9/8/2015
From: Calera, OK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
In my game versus Jocke, I picked up from Olorin after a masterful opening.

To say he ignored Japanese strategic objectives is to miss the boat completely. The SRA was conquered as was Magwe. And conquered very early and on a ruthless time schedule.

There are now 2 games that I know of, in pbem currently, where Pearl has fallen. 2 out of how many? Nobody that I am aware of has taken all of India. I can think of several where the invasion of Pearl lost the game for Japan, and not all that far back in history Pearl was deemed invincible.

I think Pearl and N. America are both the Olorin pickup by you, right? Been following that AAR, far from over, quite exciting actually, I look forward to almost daily reading and posts. You are playing the Japanese side. But it was quite the opening!

Only 2 Japanese auto victories!? Doesn't sound very likely then. Even with Olorins great opening, may still not happen. So, 2 out of countless games, doesn't seem that far fetched. Take a few key decisions in the actual war, and, a remove a little luck at Midway (and a bad radio), and, the war (while it would have had the same ending) could have had quite a different timetable. Only takes a few key decisions here or there and the war could have been drastically changed. Either direction. So, a better Japanese game player should be able to outdo a weak Allied player. And vice versa. Nothing wrong with that.

When I bought the game, I thought it was important that each side had a roughly equal chance of "winning", being defined as the official rule victory. The more I read and play, I don't think so any more. It's about the game and enjoyment, not, some victory condition. I definitely agree with the comments and advice given to discuss the objectives and goals of playing the game via PBEM with the opponent beforehand, agree on some rules, etc. Before I ever play a campaign, I will spend a lot of time on this to make sure we are aligned. As they said, who would want to pay for years only to have one player quite over a disagreement. And, while I would always be a Jap player, I sure understand how it's bad for the Allied player when his side gets demolished for a while, and then the other guy quits before the Allied player can have his fun!

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 9

RE: A small rant - 11/13/2015 1:31:37 AM

Tejszd

Posts: 3437
Joined: 11/17/2007
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Definitely not a new discussion for this game or others (ex. CC Cross of Iron or WITE) of history vs game balance.

COI - you tried to keep your troops alive while killing as many as possible but you always ended up attacking or defending in Berlin. For many that made the campaign game unenjoyable.

A game that can follow history and have options (for me that could of happened) which allows each player/side actually win makes for a good game and sim.

WITE tries to recreate history by giving the Germans a starting bonus, then the Russians a 1st winter advantage and then lowers/raises morale as the years go by for each side regardless of how the war is going so it gets criticized. But against the AI or with really unbalanced players the Germans might find a way to have a chance to win. Which then causes another group to criticize it.....

So I do not mind at all that this game has options that can be turned on or off so the player can control Japanese production and pick which planes to develop or try to develop early.

(in reply to sfatula)

Post #: 10

RE: A small rant - 11/13/2015 2:02:22 AM

Lokasenna

Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sfatula

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
In my game versus Jocke, I picked up from Olorin after a masterful opening.

To say he ignored Japanese strategic objectives is to miss the boat completely. The SRA was conquered as was Magwe. And conquered very early and on a ruthless time schedule.

There are now 2 games that I know of, in pbem currently, where Pearl has fallen. 2 out of how many? Nobody that I am aware of has taken all of India. I can think of several where the invasion of Pearl lost the game for Japan, and not all that far back in history Pearl was deemed invincible.

I think Pearl and N. America are both the Olorin pickup by you, right? Been following that AAR, far from over, quite exciting actually, I look forward to almost daily reading and posts. You are playing the Japanese side. But it was quite the opening!

Only 2 Japanese auto victories!? Doesn't sound very likely then. Even with Olorins great opening, may still not happen. So, 2 out of countless games, doesn't seem that far fetched. Take a few key decisions in the actual war, and, a remove a little luck at Midway (and a bad radio), and, the war (while it would have had the same ending) could have had quite a different timetable. Only takes a few key decisions here or there and the war could have been drastically changed. Either direction. So, a better Japanese game player should be able to outdo a weak Allied player. And vice versa. Nothing wrong with that.

When I bought the game, I thought it was important that each side had a roughly equal chance of "winning", being defined as the official rule victory. The more I read and play, I don't think so any more. It's about the game and enjoyment, not, some victory condition. I definitely agree with the comments and advice given to discuss the objectives and goals of playing the game via PBEM with the opponent beforehand, agree on some rules, etc. Before I ever play a campaign, I will spend a lot of time on this to make sure we are aligned. As they said, who would want to pay for years only to have one player quite over a disagreement. And, while I would always be a Jap player, I sure understand how it's bad for the Allied player when his side gets demolished for a while, and then the other guy quits before the Allied player can have his fun!

Only 2 because what happens instead is the Allied player throws in the towel, giving it up as inevitable.

(in reply to sfatula)

Post #: 11

RE: A small rant - 11/13/2015 3:20:07 AM

geofflambert

Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline

I just have a hard time picturing Japanese pedaling up Route 66 on their bikes. Will the US surrender if they capture Boulder City Nevada? No oil at that time was brought up out of the ground on the West Coast. The factories and population centers were in the northeast. The troops restricted to the West Coast are formidable. Doesn't make any sense to me and I doubt it did to them either. As for the Europe first thing, the US was already heavily invested in that theatre. We sure didn't want the Soviets to lose. Here's a question, would it be better for the Soviets to capture more of Europe than they did anyway, or capture Manchuria and Korea and more besides? There's no debate on that. Is there? It's perfectly fine with me if people want to playtest that sort of thing but whether the game permits you to do it is moot. I know there are many players who care what the arbitrary and inflexible point system says but I don't give a hoot. The Allied side will win in the end and if something different happens it is not the fault of the game, look elsewhere.

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Post #: 12

RE: A small rant - 11/13/2015 3:14:54 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Can I make my own 'small rant'?

I resent having to scroll all the way down the forum page to get to the WitP-AE section. Look at all the 'New Releases' that have no activity at all. Let's petition Matrix to move WitP-AE up to its rightful place at the top!

I now return this thread to its topic.

Uh, you do know how to bookmark a web page?

_____________________________

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(in reply to Zorch)

Post #: 13

RE: A small rant - 11/13/2015 3:26:23 PM

PaxMondo

Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton
Uh, you do know how to bookmark a web page?

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Pax

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Post #: 14

RE: A small rant - 11/13/2015 3:28:32 PM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Can I make my own 'small rant'?

I resent having to scroll all the way down the forum page to get to the WitP-AE section. Look at all the 'New Releases' that have no activity at all. Let's petition Matrix to move WitP-AE up to its rightful place at the top!

I now return this thread to its topic.

Uh, you do know how to bookmark a web page?

Nuthin quite like an old Netscape user reverting to antiquated terminology.......

I used Netscape back in the day as well.

_____________________________

Hans

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 15

RE: A small rant - 11/13/2015 3:33:14 PM

witpqs

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Can I make my own 'small rant'?

I resent having to scroll all the way down the forum page to get to the WitP-AE section. Look at all the 'New Releases' that have no activity at all. Let's petition Matrix to move WitP-AE up to its rightful place at the top!

I now return this thread to its topic.

Uh, you do know how to bookmark a web page?

Nuthin quite like an old Netscape user reverting to antiquated terminology.......

I used Netscape back in the day as well.

They are called bookmarks in Chrome, too.

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(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 16

RE: A small rant - 11/13/2015 3:58:58 PM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Can I make my own 'small rant'?

I resent having to scroll all the way down the forum page to get to the WitP-AE section. Look at all the 'New Releases' that have no activity at all. Let's petition Matrix to move WitP-AE up to its rightful place at the top!

I now return this thread to its topic.

Uh, you do know how to bookmark a web page?

Nuthin quite like an old Netscape user reverting to antiquated terminology.......

I used Netscape back in the day as well.

They are called bookmarks in Chrome, too.

Copycats!

Aren't there laws against plagiarism?

_____________________________

Hans

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 17

RE: A small rant - 11/13/2015 4:35:25 PM

witpqs

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Copycats!

Aren't there laws against plagiarism?

Yes, but those laws were copied!

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(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 18

RE: A small rant - 11/13/2015 7:45:46 PM

Zorch

Posts: 7087
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Can I make my own 'small rant'?

I resent having to scroll all the way down the forum page to get to the WitP-AE section. Look at all the 'New Releases' that have no activity at all. Let's petition Matrix to move WitP-AE up to its rightful place at the top!

I now return this thread to its topic.

Uh, you do know how to bookmark a web page?

Nuthin quite like an old Netscape user reverting to antiquated terminology.......

I used Netscape back in the day as well.

They are called bookmarks in Chrome, too.

That takes all the fun out of it!

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 19

RE: A small rant - 11/13/2015 8:19:45 PM

geofflambert

Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline

No, I don't have any porn bookmarks!

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 20

RE: A small rant - 11/13/2015 9:18:39 PM

Lowpe

Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
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Alfred's Opus.

(in reply to geofflambert)

Post #: 21

RE: A small rant - 11/14/2015 2:23:25 AM

wdolson

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Nuthin quite like an old Netscape user reverting to antiquated terminology.......

I used Netscape back in the day as well.

Firefox, Netscape's descendant still calls them bookmarks. As far as I can remember the only browsers that call them something else are those from Microsoft and Apple.

Bill

_____________________________

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(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 22

RE: A small rant - 11/14/2015 5:38:18 AM

sfatula

Posts: 100
Joined: 9/8/2015
From: Calera, OK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Firefox, Netscape's descendant still calls them bookmarks. As far as I can remember the only browsers that call them something else are those from Microsoft and Apple.

Bill

Using Safari on Apple, they call them bookmarks! So, make that "just" Microsoft.

(in reply to wdolson)

Post #: 23

RE: A small rant - 11/14/2015 6:07:50 AM

Lokasenna

Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Nuthin quite like an old Netscape user reverting to antiquated terminology.......

I used Netscape back in the day as well.

Firefox, Netscape's descendant still calls them bookmarks. As far as I can remember the only browsers that call them something else are those from Microsoft and Apple.

Bill

Last time I used IE (a very long time ago), they were called bookmarks. I think.

(in reply to wdolson)

Post #: 24

RE: A small rant - 11/14/2015 6:24:47 AM

wdolson

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline

I hate IE, but some sites require it, so I use it on rare occasion, MS call them "Favorites". It has always annoyed me that Microsoft has tried to drive some fairly good ideas out by insisting on doing things the Microsoft Way. Back when Microsoft didn't dominate e-mail, most e-mail programs would show quotes by putting a caret ( > )in front of quoted lines. You could see how many levels of quote there were by counting the carets. It was a simple method that worked quite well.

Then Microsoft decided they weren't going to support it and because Outlook was becoming dominant in the corporate world, carets went out of fashion.

They've tried to kill off the use of "bookmark" by renaming everything "Favorites".

I thought Safari might use Favorites too, but I don't use Mac, so I wouldn't know.

_____________________________

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 25

RE: A small rant - 11/14/2015 6:48:48 AM

jimh009

Posts: 368
Joined: 5/15/2005
Status: offline

Back on topic...

Since this is a "rant" thread, I'll put in my two cents.

I agree about for PBEM games that it is crucial to find someone whose "play style," for lack of a better word, matches "your own." Playing a Japanese player that is hyper aggressive isn't much fun if you were hoping for a war that more or less followed original Japanese strategy.

Personally, I actually do enjoy the "out of the box" stuff and new strategies not used in the real war. It's part of war gaming, after all - testing out new tactics and strategies.

However, for me, there's a difference between "out of the box"/new strategies and "something not possible whatsoever."

My gripes about AI relate to that.

1. China - The sheer uselessness of Chinese forces once the Burma Road is cut. And the ease at which Japan can sweep the Chinese aside.

2. Supply - I've long thought the supply system was somewhat "broken" in the game. For the most part, there just seems far too much supply, for both sides. Being able to launch every British and Indian Division from India for a jungle march into Burma in 1943, while fun to do as an Allied player, was in no way possible in real life. Nor was it possible for Japan to set up enough supply in Saipan, Rabaul or Truk to last, literally, years.

Yet, by the same token, overland supply can't even provide enough supply for a dinky unit in Darwin that does nothing more than sit there and gather dust.

Then of course there's the supply disaster in China - where once the Burma Road is cut units inside cities "starve to death" (literally) while units outside city hexes remain (for the most part) in supply - making it simple for the Japanese to sweep it all aside.

3. Pace of Game - And, I guess, related to supply...the "pace of the game" simply moves far faster than what was possible in real-life. For my games against the AI, I use that mod (forget the name) that reduces supply capacity of ships by 30% and has tight stacking limits. That mod helps with slowing down game pace quite a bit, but even with the mod the pace still moves too fast than what was possible historically. The Allied player still has endless supply by mid-1942, and the reduced shipping capacity doesn't seem to affect the japanese building up supply cache's the size of Mt. Everest in key places.

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 26

RE: A small rant - 11/15/2015 2:53:51 AM

geofflambert

Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline

Da Babes mods (some of them) limit stacking and reduce cargo capacity. I like that a lot. As to the Chinese, they sure tie up a lot of Japanese troops. If you use the unrestricted ones properly and with good discretion you have a chance at least of stopping the Burma Road from being cut in the first place.

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Post #: 27

RE: A small rant - 11/15/2015 2:55:30 AM

geofflambert

Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline

I must have bookmarks. That's where I keep the serious stuff. Favorites is where I keep the porn links.

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Post #: 28

RE: A small rant - 11/15/2015 5:38:07 AM

BillBrown