How is everyone's campaign progress compared to historical?

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Decisive Campaigns: Barbarossa >> How is everyone's campaign progress compared to historical?

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How is everyone's campaign progress compared to histori... - 11/26/2015 8:45:05 PM

itkotw2000

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Joined: 8/27/2005
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I am interested to hear how everyone is progressing compared to the historical progress of Barbarossa. That is a good test for how well the game is made.

In my own first serious try, my Germans have advance well, but on my July 24 turn my panzers in AGC have stopped 3 hexes from the Polotsk-Vitebsk-Orsha-Mogilev line. It seems the Russians have plenty of divisions to throw at me. They have a wall of five hexes the have 4 of more division per hex in front of Mogilev. A little north at Polotsk the Russians have a wall of three hexes with 5 divisions each and 1 hex with 9 divisions(!!!). And these are not all weak divisions. If I change to simplified counters I see their combat values are the same as mine (though a 1 to 1 fight I know I would win).

The Russians rebound fast. There seems to be little chance for surrounding units. I have surrounded quite a few pockets, but they are mostly from the first 2-3 turns. If the pocket of Russians is not 100% closed they pass out of a single hex gap. They reform into blocks of 3-5 divisions. Even my panzer groups can not smash multiple hexes of 5 divisions every couple turns just trying to break out. Meaning that there is never a break out because the Russians flow out of one pocket and create a new line using units that are not much less in strength than my own. All of this is happening in the first 30 days.

Clearly the Germans have an advantage in the first turn, but the advantage fades fast.

Before this post gets too long I will make a list -

1. Stacking units in a hex should have an AP penalty. As a German, I have passed 10 or 12 divisions through a hex in a turn and without any apparent difficulty. The game carries over stacking points when attacking a hex multiple times, this mechanic should be used for movement also. This should increase the AP point cost for the hex.

2. Stacking units should be based a variable factors. The manual states - "Stacking points are a function of unit size." Later the manual talks about carrying over stacking points battle to battle, because "... it's the pre-battle manoeuvring and positioning that multiple battles infer which creates bottlenecks of men and machines in the immediate vicinity." This implies that coordinating large units in a single hex is difficult, but I think bonuses (or penalties) could be given due to many factors - cooperative (or dysfunctional) commands, commander bonuses, pre-planning and focus cards, unit experience and general cohesion, and many more.

will post more later...

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RE: How is everyone's campaign progress compared to his... - 11/26/2015 9:07:09 PM

Franciscus

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Thanks for your post. It sheds some light on how really the game plays.
I will follow your impressions with interest and, hopefully, some other's AARs

Regards

< Message edited by Franciscus -- 11/26/2015 11:07:16 PM >

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RE: How is everyone's campaign progress compared to his... - 11/26/2015 10:51:23 PM

lancer

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Joined: 10/18/2005
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Hi Itkotw,

Hexes with a lot of Soviets in them are most likely reinforcement armies that have just arrived. They'll disperse shortly. Mostly the Soviet AI will detrain newly arrived armies to the rear of the front but it's willing to 'plug the gap' where needed.

There is a stacking AP movement restriction but it's set at around 16 units (eg. that many units in a hex and it's blocked). Keep in mind these are 30 km wide hexes and four day turns.

What is much more likely is an AP penalty due to previous battles in hexes that you might want to move through. Larger battles can incur these and they are shown in the hexes in the small transparent boxes. If you hover your mouse over the terrain pic (top centre), down the bottom of the big terrain tool tip it'll tell you the reason for any AP penalties in the hex.

While the game is relatively easy to get the hang off it's not so easy to master and I wouldn't be expecting to emulate historical outcomes, especially as the Germans, until you have some experience. I'd strongly recommend leaving the AI on the default 'Normal' setting initially as it's very good.

Stacking points are a function of the unit size but the number of stacking points (or units) you can safely throw into a battle depend on how many hexes you are attacking from (concentric attacks). The more hexes (or flanks) you are hitting the target from the more forgiving will be your stacking limit (which you can exceed but at the cost of excessive casualties).

The combat engine does indeed take into account all of the factors you've mentioned as well as many others. It's pretty solid.

Cheers,
Cameron

(in reply to Franciscus)

Post #: 3

RE: How is everyone's campaign progress compared to his... - 11/26/2015 10:52:35 PM

Panzeh

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I've stuffed the Germans cold in the center, still well outside Smolensk in September. The Germans still aren't anywhere near Stalingrad. They are, however, well past Kiev in the south. I'm not sure how to scrounge up enough reinforcement armies to contain them there.

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RE: How is everyone's campaign progress compared to his... - 11/27/2015 5:23:32 AM

zakblood

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quote:

I'd strongly recommend leaving the AI on the default 'Normal' setting initially as it's very good.

and also my tip is leave FOW off for a few battles as well, as it won't be the other side that gives you the most headache at first, it will be the command structure, the lack of PP's, the commander in chief changing his mind every now and then, or not telling you much at all doesn't or wont help, the in fighting of the other commanders, it's funny with the Germans, as if you keep the train commander happy, you most of the time fall out with him who controls the trucks, so it's a balancing act, and while at first it may seem odd in a war game, it just works, as it adds a layer of immersion to it, which adds imo to the overall re playability and fun

(in reply to Panzeh)

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RE: How is everyone's campaign progress compared to his... - 11/27/2015 11:58:55 AM

zakblood

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to give some a scale of what your trying to do and why you fail as the Germans, lets have a minute to read some of this,

Operation Unthinkable

and it's just a small quote from the words of those in charge at the time C&C etc and General staff planners etc,

quote:

The War Cabinet said it was beyond the capabilities of the 103 divisions of Allied troops in Europe to do what Napoleon and Hitler had failed to do. As Brooke noted in his diary, �The idea is of course fantastic and the chances of success quite impossible. There is no doubt from now onwards Russia is all-powerful in Europe.�

The British generals were finally able to make their holiday plans when a cable arrived from US President Harry Truman, saying there was no chance the Americans would offer help � let alone lead an attempt � to drive the Russians from Eastern Europe.

The Unthinkable file was closed.

quote:

153 divisions for Barbarossa, which included 104 infantry, 19 panzer and 15 motorized infantry divisions

quote:

680,000 soldiers for Napoleon both failed

< Message edited by zakblood -- 11/27/2015 1:04:11 PM >

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RE: How is everyone's campaign progress compared to his... - 11/27/2015 1:38:19 PM

elmo3

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Playing my first game as the Soviets against the Normal German AI on Slow to help it play better.

It's 5 August '41.

Up north we are still holding out by a thread in Riga although it will be isolated next turn and probably fall shortly after that. The Huns are still about 60kms south of Pskov. So the AI is behind the historical timetable up north. The situation is probably worse for the AI in the center. We still hold Vitebsk, Orsha, and Mogilev with the Germans about 200kms west of Smolensk, so they are well behind schedule. Down south the Germans are at the gates of Kiev but we have 5 divisions and a major garrison defending it with orders to fight to the last man so hopefully it will hold for a while longer. The 2nd PzGrp must have been reassigned to AGS as they are the ones outside Kiev. It looks like Halder has chosen a southern strategy. We still barely hold Odessa. It's isolated but we plan to make an attack this turn to relieve the troops there. My line looks like swiss cheese in the south so this is the area where the AI is doing it's best. If the AI keeps pushing hard to the west they might reach Dnepropetrovsk close to the historical timeline.

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RE: How is everyone's campaign progress compared to his... - 11/27/2015 1:59:11 PM

Franciscus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3

Playing my first game as the Soviets against the Normal German AI on Slow to help it play better.

It's 5 August '41.

Up north we are still holding out by a thread in Riga although it will be isolated next turn and probably fall shortly after that. The Huns are still about 60kms south of Pskov. So the AI is behind the historical timetable up north. The situation is probably worse for the AI in the center. We still hold Vitebsk, Orsha, and Mogilev with the Germans about 200kms west of Smolensk, so they are well behind schedule. Down south the Germans are at the gates of Kiev but we have 5 divisions and a major garrison defending it with orders to fight to the last man so hopefully it will hold for a while longer. The 2nd PzGrp must have been reassigned to AGS as they are the ones outside Kiev. It looks like Halder has chosen a southern strategy. We still barely hold Odessa. It's isolated but we plan to make an attack this turn to relieve the troops there. My line looks like swiss cheese in the south so this is the area where the AI is doing it's best. If the AI keeps pushing hard to the west they might reach Dnepropetrovsk close to the historical timeline.

Thanks

Was the AI able to do encirclements or is it more like a static front ?

Regards

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RE: How is everyone's campaign progress compared to his... - 11/27/2015 2:01:09 PM

elmo3

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The AI has made some small pockets but no major encirclements yet.

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RE: How is everyone's campaign progress compared to his... - 11/27/2015 2:25:49 PM

Panzeh

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Franciscus

Thanks

Was the AI able to do encirclements or is it more like a static front ?

Regards

The AI does do encirclements but not huge ones- it generally shoots for 1-3 hex encirclements rather than big WitE-style Lvov encirclements. It did a big one in my game, though.

The more cautious approach has resulted in less opportunities for me to do much to them, though I did kill two panzer divisions, Totenkopf, and a motorized division when the AI tried to breakthrough and met up with two armies I was bringing up.

< Message edited by Panzeh -- 11/27/2015 3:32:42 PM >

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RE: How is everyone's campaign progress compared to his... - 11/27/2015 2:35:44 PM

zakblood

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a very good animated GIF file Panzeh

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RE: How is everyone's campaign progress compared to his... - 11/27/2015 2:40:43 PM

Templer_12

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zakblood

a very good animated GIF file Panzeh

I would like to see more of such GIFs.

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RE: How is everyone's campaign progress compared to his... - 11/27/2015 2:44:23 PM

Panzeh

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I'll try to make more- hit the screenshot option and you'll have a folder full of status screenshots and then there are plenty of ways to make slideshows into animated gifs.

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RE: How is everyone's campaign progress compared to his... - 11/27/2015 2:50:24 PM

Franciscus

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Joined: 12/22/2010
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Thanks again...

Good to see an apparently competent AI on the offensive.

But the map at this level reminds me of my old ZX Spectrum days...

< Message edited by Franciscus -- 11/27/2015 4:07:11 PM >

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RE: How is everyone's campaign progress compared to his... - 11/28/2015 12:53:40 AM

itkotw2000

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Restarted my campaign, again as Germans. I tried for a more aggressive first turn. Panzer group still try to break out, but I send my infantry divisions to attack wildly on the first turn. Due to first turn bonuses I am surprised what a single infantry division can do.

Right now I have stopped my current game on July 20 to write this post, I am about to restart. AGN is doing fine; I holding Pskov for the second turn, but cant get much help to push more (not to Talinn yet). AGC has slammed into a wall just past Minsk again. I now see that AGC only has until July 8 before it turns into a grind (by July 8 Russians are able to counter-attack and defeat single armored or motorized divisions on the front lines). AGS, well AGS just sucks. Supply lines too long, ran out of fuel for a turn. As of July 20th turn I have fuel but it is muddy so nothing is moving.

I thought it might be interesting to compare kill/loss numbers ("Casualties sustained - All")(I will write losses as Russian/German) -

Turn 22/6 = 126.6k/26.1k
Turn 26/6 = 300.2k/42.8k
Turn 30/6 = 452.7k/66.2k
Turn 4/7 = 611.6k/83.9k
Turn 8/7 = 777.7k/95.3k
Turn 12/7 = 852.9k/97.7k
Turn 16/7 = 903.7k/119.2k

Next restart I do, I will set AI speed to fast (I had been playing on AI speed normal), just to see if it makes much difference.

Things I have noticed, for good or bad, most strike me as...weird -
1. Infantry units do well against armored units (either Russian or German). In other Barbarossa games, as Germans, I might not throw infantry divisions against Russian tanks. Here, it is less of a problem. Conversely, German panzers seem to take the worst losses from attacking infantry units.
2. Infantry tends to have a high entrenchment value. In plains hexes, infantry automatically get 40 out of 100 entrenchment points. So, in four days an infantry unit can move and create entrenchments that are 40% as strong as the highest imaginable entrenchment. I would imagine 100% entrenchment as barbed wire, bunkers, gun positions, pre planned artillery, that sort of thing. Infantry units automatically are 40% of the way there. *Edit - I guess wire and bunkers could be considered "fortifications". But there needs to be a bigger difference between a unit that entrenches for 4 days or 2 weeks.
3. Bug - maybe not - I moved two panzer divisions one hex into a different army group's zone and they ran out of fuel because that army group was out of fuel (the original AG had tons of fuel). This happened during my turn, not from one turn to the next. In the attached image the two units in question are just off the top of the screen under the "stats" tab.

I will try to post an image of AGC's wall they have to break through.
[image][/image]

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by itkotw -- 11/28/2015 2:13:54 AM >

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RE: How is everyone's campaign progress compared to his... - 11/28/2015 5:34:40 AM

NotOneStepBack

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Took Leningrad in August. See: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3975986

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RE: How is everyone's campaign progress compared to his... - 11/29/2015 12:33:09 AM

lancer

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Hi Iktow,

The early soviet tank divisions were of a very poor standard of leadership, experience and equipment and offered little real opposition.

Soviet infantry assaulting Panzer divisions are on a hiding to nowhere. This has been tested thoroughly.

If you found a Panzer division out of fuel or supply, maybe.

If you've got a save game with examples that contradict this we'd like to take a look. Keep in mind that combat incorporates a lot of different factors and it can be tricky to generalise.

As you're playing the Germans have a look at the summaries of battles involving Soviets attacking Panzer div's in the history reports to get a rough idea.

If you cross theatre borders the Panzer Div will draw fuel from the theatre that it's in. With an authorised crossing (Fuhrer approved) fuel is proportionally shifted from one theatre to another to accommodate this.

The entrenchment levels vary by terrain so infantry, fully entrenched, in a plains hex are still going to be a long way behind other situations. The Soviets have the ability to fortify a hex (card) which can raise the entrenchment levels well above that of plains.

There's a limit to how far infantry can entrench without the aid of specialised equipment and this is reflected in their ability to max out their plains entrenchment levels in a couple of turns (to a still relatively low value) and the mechanic of building fortifications which represents the all bells and whistles of wire, mines, structures etc.

Cheers,
Cameron

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Post #: 17