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This bugs me - 3/25/2003 2:39:10 PM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		Hit percentage;

We all know that the chance of hitting a unit drops sharply after the first shot. It's modeled this way to simulate troops diving for cover, hitting the dirt etc.

Fine.

Why does it work same way with tanks?! First shot a nice 20-25% chance. If you miss, the second one is a 2% chance, even if you didn't get fired back at! It's not exactly as if the crew members go "oh, they're firing at us - DUCK!" :rolleyes: If you're moving and getting fired at, the chances are that you STOP, then reverse in order to find cover, making your tank even more vulnerable for a moment. The time it takes to reload a gun is a lot less than it takes to drive for cover, ne? :p I would say that the hit chance should RISE after the first shot, as you can use the first for zeroing in....

All part of the game I guess, here's hoping that we won't see any of it in CL. :D

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Re: This bugs me - 3/25/2003 10:19:22 PM   
RockinHarry


Posts: 2963
Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Belisarius
[B]Hit percentage;

We all know that the chance of hitting a unit drops sharply after the first shot. It's modeled this way to simulate troops diving for cover, hitting the dirt etc.

Fine.

Why does it work same way with tanks?! First shot a nice 20-25% chance. If you miss, the second one is a 2% chance, even if you didn't get fired back at! It's not exactly as if the crew members go "oh, they're firing at us - DUCK!" :rolleyes: If you're moving and getting fired at, the chances are that you STOP, then reverse in order to find cover, making your tank even more vulnerable for a moment. The time it takes to reload a gun is a lot less than it takes to drive for cover, ne? :p I would say that the hit chance should RISE after the first shot, as you can use the first for zeroing in....

All part of the game I guess, here's hoping that we won't see any of it in CL. :D [/B][/QUOTE]

good point! I was wondering about this for a long time too! As it seems the game engine handles infantry and tanks just the same. Annoying..:rolleyes:

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Post #: 2
- 3/25/2003 11:35:41 PM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		Are we playing the same game? :confused:

If your unit has a good range finder and targeting rating, your chance of a hit goes up significantly after the first shot. Just use a Nashorn or an 88mm AT Gun. Those things regularly hit their targets on the 2nd or 3rd shot if they receive no return fire.

Of course, what you say about MGs is true, since the troops dive for cover after the first burst. So, it is better to spread your fire over several "ready" squads with an MG than to keep pounding one squad that has already "gone to ground."

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Post #: 3
- 3/25/2003 11:43:10 PM   
Capt. Pixel

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 10/15/2001
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by rbrunsman
[B]... So, it is better to spread your fire over several "ready" squads with an MG than to keep pounding one squad that has already "gone to ground." [/B][/QUOTE]

This is exactly the tactic I mentioned in another thread a few weeks back. Try to catch your targets in the Ready stance, take a shot or two until they drop to Pinned and then move to other 'Ready' targets. In this way, you can slowly attrit units one or two caualties at a time, and slow down advancing infantry. It works very, very well. :cool:

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Post #: 4
Killing off pinned units?? - 3/26/2003 8:11:57 AM   
Buzzard45


Posts: 364
Joined: 1/11/2003
From: Regina, Canada
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Capt. Pixel
[B]This is exactly the tactic I mentioned in another thread a few weeks back. Try to catch your targets in the Ready stance, take a shot or two until they drop to Pinned and then move to other 'Ready' targets. In this way, you can slowly attrit units one or two caualties at a time, and slow down advancing infantry. It works very, very well. :cool: [/B][/QUOTE]

But what if you are advancing? It is sooooooOoooo! disappointing to come out of the smoke after a successful prep bombardment and have all the enemy gone to ground from concussion suppression and not be hit from a range of 1. What's with that?:(

It there another way? CP, have you done any tests with respect to ALT-O or Alt-M ? Is it more effective than direct fire. Of course you have to be in the same hex and then there is a risk of not being able to leave the hex until the next turn and any further fire directed at that hex means that YOUR unit will suffer the effects of it.

Does anyone else have any input on the effectiveness of Alt-M or Alt-O? or is there an easier way of taking out pinned units at close range.

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Post #: 5
- 3/26/2003 8:24:39 AM   
Irinami

 

Posts: 746
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Florida, USA
Status: offline 		Don't forget, people, that units do move within the hex they occupy during a turn.

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Post #: 6
Just Asking - 3/26/2003 8:46:03 AM   
Buzzard45


Posts: 364
Joined: 1/11/2003
From: Regina, Canada
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Irinami
[B]Don't forget, people, that units do move within the hex they occupy during a turn. [/B][/QUOTE]

And your point is?

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Post #: 7
- 3/26/2003 3:02:15 PM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by rbrunsman
[B]Are we playing the same game? :confused:

If your unit has a good range finder and targeting rating, your chance of a hit goes up significantly after the first shot. Just use a Nashorn or an 88mm AT Gun. Those things regularly hit their targets on the 2nd or 3rd shot if they receive no return fire.

Of course, what you say about MGs is true, since the troops dive for cover after the first burst. So, it is better to spread your fire over several "ready" squads with an MG than to keep pounding one squad that has already "gone to ground." [/B][/QUOTE]

Obviously we're not playing the same game. :p

I rest most my cases on trials with PzIV with the 75 L/48 gun. Fire control and range finder values are almost 88 class, as you know.

First shot; usually between 21-26%
Second shot; 2-3% :mad:

Are they passing the bottle of schnapps around between every shot? :rolleyes:

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Post #: 8
- 3/27/2003 2:25:09 AM   
VonRay

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 5/5/2002
From: Arizona
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Does anyone else have any input on the effectiveness of Alt-M or Alt-O? or is there an easier way of taking out pinned units at close range.[/QUOTE]

I do not use alt-M very much since it tends to shake up the attacking troops as much as the defenders.

I do use alt-O quite often against pinned and retreating infantry with pretty good result, infantry don't like being run over by armor of any size and tend to disperse. It also works against AT guns and mortars, but there is a chance of your vehicle breaking down (throwing tracks). Never tried it against AT guns larger than 75mm, or any field gun type arty.

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Post #: 9
- 3/27/2003 12:15:15 PM   
john g

 

Posts: 984
Joined: 10/6/2000
From: college station, tx usa
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Belisarius
[B]Obviously we're not playing the same game. :p

I rest most my cases on trials with PzIV with the 75 L/48 gun. Fire control and range finder values are almost 88 class, as you know.

First shot; usually between 21-26%
Second shot; 2-3% :mad:

Are they passing the bottle of schnapps around between every shot? :rolleyes: [/B][/QUOTE]

I just ran a test half a dozen PzIVj firing with no smoke on the field, first shot est prob 26-30, second 30-36, third 40-50.

Remember the number in the pop up box is generally the best number you can get, generally all modifiers will reduce your chance from there.

Perhaps your situation had plenty of smoke on the battlefield and when you shot at the tank and missed, it added enough smoke to make the hex barely visable?

Even with the tanks shooting back the percentage went up. It appears to be working correctly here.
thanks, John.

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Post #: 10
Interesting - 3/27/2003 2:22:13 PM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		Thanx for the feedback, john!

Seems something is strange with my data. I'll run more tests. :p

Btw, there's no chance that 7.1 and H2H can differ in this matter? I can't see a reason why, but.... ?

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Post #: 11
- 3/27/2003 4:02:14 PM   
challenge

 

Posts: 465
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline 		Alt O is just loverly!;)

Alt M is one of those things to do sparingly. I get reasonable results from attacking atrided infantry, and lower man units like AT guns and the like using full squads.

Not sure about that with h2h though, I'm fighting my first battle with it now and haven't gotten close enough to use it.

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Post #: 12
Re: Interesting - 3/27/2003 10:37:40 PM   
Lars

 

Posts: 205
Joined: 7/19/2000
From: Västerås, Sweden
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Belisarius
[B]Thanx for the feedback, john!

Seems something is strange with my data. I'll run more tests. :p

Btw, there's no chance that 7.1 and H2H can differ in this matter? I can't see a reason why, but.... ? [/B][/QUOTE]
Hi Bel,

I don't experience the same thing you describe. On the contrary I would say that the second and third shot almost always tend to be a bit higher. BUT, there looks to be some minor disturbance in the hit calculating routine that makes the hit %, when targeting, drop down to 2%. :confused:
However when you shoot, you'll see in the popup window that the real hit chance is way higher. This also happens allot with AT-guns and other guns.

/Lars

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Post #: 13
- 3/27/2003 10:49:20 PM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		Good observation, Lars.

It's a plausible explanation. I've had my attention at the bottom status bar, not the popup windows. I'll take a look at it.

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Post #: 14
- 3/27/2003 11:47:28 PM   
Irinami

 

Posts: 746
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Florida, USA
Status: offline 		I've noticed this general trend in some weapons, specifically the Japanese Type 92 HMG.

You will tend to see a wave in the hit percent. I remember the HMG and sidearm Rifle percents went something like this...

SHOT....1......2......3......4.......5......6
HMG.....7%..14%..7%..14%..7%..14%
Rifle......3%..6%...3%...6%...3%...6%

Not those exact numbers or necessarily doubles, but basically every other shot would be higher (or lower, if you look at it that way). I guess you could say the first shot had a certain chance; the second shot you get the benefit of fire-correction. The third shot/burst you have recoil to contend with... by the fourth shot the recoil is in effect compensated for by the sheer amount of lead you're putting downstream... then more recoil... then more lead effect...

I know it doesn't always work like that, but I've noticed it before too. Seems to be with the sub-20% hit chances, roughly.

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Post #: 15
Re: Killing off pinned units?? - 3/28/2003 9:18:13 AM   
Capt. Pixel

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 10/15/2001
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Buzzard45
[B]...
CP, have you done any tests with respect to ALT-O or Alt-M ? Is it more effective than direct fire. Of course you have to be in the same hex and then there is a risk of not being able to leave the hex until the next turn and any further fire directed at that hex means that YOUR unit will suffer the effects of it.

Does anyone else have any input on the effectiveness of Alt-M or Alt-O? or is there an easier way of taking out pinned units at close range. [/B][/QUOTE]

I haven't done any tests, per say, but my gut feeling (experiences?) lead me to believe that Overrun (Alt-O) and Melee (Alt-M) can be more useful than Direct Fire in certain situations.

If the hex has one or more heavily supressed infantry (Retreating or Routed) you can probably nearly eliminate the entire infantry population in that hex with a simple overrun. This is particularly useful if you're fighting either very large squads (eg. Japanese) or anybody's Elite squads. You still need to be wary of nearby squads that might 'wake up' after that enemy unit has been eliminated.

I'd pick the cheapest armored, tracked unit with Machineguns for this purpose. My understanding is that it's the MGs, not the main gun, that determine the effectiveness of an Overrun. For this reason, I wouldn't recommend Overrunning with early StuGs or SiGs, for instance.

The same could be said using your infantry in this situation but for a different reason. I'd use Alt-M specifically to pin the enemy squad down and keep it from falling back. (This is a real problem fighting US forces - they retreat so readily. :rolleyes: )

I don't usually use Alt-M, but I find Indirect Fire ('Z') useful in keeping an enemy infantry target in place while I pound on them. They don't seem to retreat as often if being fired on indirectly. (That might just be my imagination or wishful thinking, though) :cool:

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