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Resources in Hokkaido - 11/28/2015 6:45:37 PM   
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Coach Zuck
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Status: offline 		Why are resources pooling on Hokkaido?
Seems not matter how many I ship down to Honshu there are always a ton on Hokkaido.
Even had a city on Honshu not produced HI a couple of days ago and there was over 1 million resources on Hokkaido.

How do I keep resources from pooling on Hokkaido?

How does the game move them there?
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RE: Resources in Hokkaido - 11/28/2015 7:07:45 PM   
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cohimbra
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Status: offline 		According to WitPTracker (a useful game tool), in scen.001 (stock game) Hokkaido have a 34.600 tons of daily resources surplus.
If you want to put the Hokkaido resources to Hosho, simply use xAK/xAKL cargoTFs; Hokkaido in not connected to Hosho by land, Hokkaido is a isle.
Hosho, Kyushu & Shikoku are land connected, you don't need to shipping between the three.

< Message edited by cohimbra -- 11/28/2015 8:11:05 PM >

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RE: Resources in Hokkaido - 11/28/2015 7:11:06 PM   
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Coach Zuck
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quote:

According to WitPTracker (a useful game tool), in scen.001 (stock game) Hokkaido have a 34.600 tons of daily resources surplus.
If you want to put the Hokkaido resources to Hosho, simply use xAK/xAKL cargoTFs; Hokkaido in not connected
to Hosho by land, Hokkaido is a isle.


cohimbra

I do ship resources out regularly, and I use the tracker.
BUT resources still continually pool on Hokkaido!

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RE: Resources in Hokkaido - 11/28/2015 7:15:21 PM   
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cohimbra
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Coach Zuck
I do ship resources out regularly, and I use the tracker.
BUT resources still continually pool on Hokkaido!

Well, without more detailed info I can only presume you drain res from Hokkaido at slow rate. But I don't know what's the really situation in your game.


< Message edited by cohimbra -- 11/28/2015 8:16:06 PM >

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RE: Resources in Hokkaido - 11/28/2015 7:55:49 PM   
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pompack
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Coach Zuck

quote:

According to WitPTracker (a useful game tool), in scen.001 (stock game) Hokkaido have a 34.600 tons of daily resources surplus.
If you want to put the Hokkaido resources to Hosho, simply use xAK/xAKL cargoTFs; Hokkaido in not connected
to Hosho by land, Hokkaido is a isle.


cohimbra

I do ship resources out regularly, and I use the tracker.
BUT resources still continually pool on Hokkaido!


well, you are lucky to get a four day turnaround including loading, unloading and transit both ways. So the absolute minimum is 150,000 tons ( real capacity including the 92% load factor) of shipping in convoys running back and forth. That is a LOT of ships, especially if you use the 10 knot coastal merchies (which you should since they will actually load faster than the bigger, faster merchies, especially in overloaded ports)

< Message edited by pompack -- 11/28/2015 8:58:12 PM >

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RE: Resources in Hokkaido - 11/28/2015 8:13:33 PM   
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GetAssista
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Status: offline 		Simple, you are not shipping enough. Build up ports at Hakodate and Ominato ASAP and do the hauling.
Excess resources this close to Home Islands are glorious.
How are your resources on Sakhalin by the way? ;)

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RE: Resources in Hokkaido - 11/28/2015 8:33:07 PM   
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Coach Zuck
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Status: offline 		Have been building up Ominato & Hakodate, and "ferrying" resources there.
Apparently I need to beef up my convoys heading North.

Been doing a better job @ Sakhalin.

Thanks Guys

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RE: Resources in Hokkaido - 11/29/2015 3:53:09 AM   
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Shark7
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Status: offline 		You'll find that you can't depend on overland transfer between Hokkaido and Honshu to move all those resources. I tend to assign my slowest AKs to this task though, as it frees up my faster ones for fleet operations. You have plenty of smaller 10-11 kts freighters that can do this job. I also tend to unload them at Tokyo or Yokohama, since the ports there are bigger and can facilitate faster unloading.

That is just the way I do it.

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RE: Resources in Hokkaido - 11/29/2015 5:56:09 AM   
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Lokasenna
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack

quote:

ORIGINAL: Coach Zuck

quote:

According to WitPTracker (a useful game tool), in scen.001 (stock game) Hokkaido have a 34.600 tons of daily resources surplus.
If you want to put the Hokkaido resources to Hosho, simply use xAK/xAKL cargoTFs; Hokkaido in not connected
to Hosho by land, Hokkaido is a isle.


cohimbra

I do ship resources out regularly, and I use the tracker.
BUT resources still continually pool on Hokkaido!


well, you are lucky to get a four day turnaround including loading, unloading and transit both ways. So the absolute minimum is 150,000 tons ( real capacity including the 92% load factor) of shipping in convoys running back and forth. That is a LOT of ships, especially if you use the 10 knot coastal merchies (which you should since they will actually load faster than the bigger, faster merchies, especially in overloaded ports)


I think it's only a 3 day turnaround, if you use the shortest route... but yeah, it takes a fair number of ships. And since these ships will be sucking up your Home Islands fuel and running constantly, for the entire war, you should use the ships that burn the least amount of fuel per hex per cargo point. Tracker can tell you that info (it has it calculated somewhere... I think in the Ship Classes data set).

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RE: Resources in Hokkaido - 11/29/2015 2:05:12 PM   
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PaxMondo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Coach Zuck

Have been building up Ominato & Hakodate, and "ferrying" resources there.
Apparently I need to beef up my convoys heading North.

Been doing a better job @ Sakhalin.

Thanks Guys

I don't think ferry works ... IIRC they have to be adjacent port hexes with port facing each other, Hak/Omi are 1 hex apart ...
In any case, you cannot ferry anywhere near what needs to move.

I have two considerations that I use for this convoy: fuel and single turn load/unload. I choose the largest class with the best fuel eff that will load/unload in one day.
As Hak/Omi ports build up, I can move to better (bigger/more fuel eff) ships.

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RE: Resources in Hokkaido - 11/29/2015 5:19:41 PM   
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Shark7
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Coach Zuck

Have been building up Ominato & Hakodate, and "ferrying" resources there.
Apparently I need to beef up my convoys heading North.

Been doing a better job @ Sakhalin.

Thanks Guys

I don't think ferry works ... IIRC they have to be adjacent port hexes with port facing each other, Hak/Omi are 1 hex apart ...
In any case, you cannot ferry anywhere near what needs to move.

I have two considerations that I use for this convoy: fuel and single turn load/unload. I choose the largest class with the best fuel eff that will load/unload in one day.
As Hak/Omi ports build up, I can move to better (bigger/more fuel eff) ships.


It *might* work if you build both ports to maximum. But in my experience, you'll move the cargo more efficiently if you use convoys anyway. But as pointed out, you will burn fuel to do it. Unfortunately, you really do need those resources on Honshu to keep Tokyo and Osaka producing though. It's a Catch 22, you just can't win.

I might actually try starting a new game and send all the ENG units I can to both those ports just to see what happens once they expand.

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RE: Resources in Hokkaido - 11/29/2015 7:27:23 PM   
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PaxMondo
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Status: offline 		From the manual p212:

"Bulk cargo (supplies, fuel, resources and oil) can be automatically transferred between friendly
ports that are in adjacent hexes and separated by a hexside that is navigable by ships, including
navigable river hexsides."

I do not believe HAK/OMI meet this criteria and I have never seen any ferry activity there.


and even if it did, 5000 max per day if both sides are size 10 ports, which these are not.







Attachment (1)

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 11/29/2015 8:31:53 PM >

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RE: Resources in Hokkaido - 11/29/2015 7:57:19 PM   
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GetAssista
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Status: offline 		> But as pointed out, you will burn fuel to do it.

3-hex resource route is the shortest one in the whole Empire, come on. Not the one you would cry over burned fuel on...
And Pax is right, no ferrying between Ominato and Hakodate, and would be not enough even if there was any.

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RE: Resources in Hokkaido - 11/29/2015 10:05:11 PM   
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Coach Zuck
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Status: offline 		PAX

I have a few TF's with smaller xAK's & xAKL's going back & forth between HAK/OMI.
They load in 1 day, travel day 2 & begin to unload(depending on fuel status), unload day 3 or finish unloading & return to HAK.
Lather-Rinse-Repeat

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RE: Resources in Hokkaido - 11/29/2015 11:03:51 PM   
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PaxMondo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Coach Zuck

PAX

I have a few TF's with smaller xAK's & xAKL's going back & forth between HAK/OMI.
They load in 1 day, travel day 2 & begin to unload(depending on fuel status), unload day 3 or finish unloading & return to HAK.
Lather-Rinse-Repeat

yep. I use Gozan's, but same results. CS Cargo tab in Tracker let's plan the whole thing easy.

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 11/30/2015 12:05:15 AM >

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RE: Resources in Hokkaido - 11/29/2015 11:27:08 PM   
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Lokasenna
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ORIGINAL: GetAssista

> But as pointed out, you will burn fuel to do it.

3-hex resource route is the shortest one in the whole Empire, come on. Not the one you would cry over burned fuel on...
And Pax is right, no ferrying between Ominato and Hakodate, and would be not enough even if there was any.


I wouldn't cry over it, but since those are going to be the ships that are always going to be moving, day in and day out for the entire war, whereas your other convoys may stop for escorts, for larger grouping, for rerouting, etc... I would put your ships with the best combination of size and fuel efficiency per hex per cargo on those duties. It might only save a few dozen fuel per week per convoy... but that's in the 5-6 digit range in fuel savings over the whole war.

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RE: Resources in Hokkaido - 11/30/2015 12:07:35 AM   
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GetAssista
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
I wouldn't cry over it, but since those are going to be the ships that are always going to be moving, day in and day out for the entire war, whereas your other convoys may stop for escorts, for larger grouping, for rerouting, etc... I would put your ships with the best combination of size and fuel efficiency per hex per cargo on those duties.

It is actually pretty simple: Omi-Hak convoy will run 3 hexes in 2 or 3 days, spending most of its action points staying in ports. Every other convoy will sail twice as much or more every day being at sea. You severely underestimate the time of being at sea for other convoys. Only Fusan ones are comparable.
Not to mention your most fuel efficient ships are 15 and 18 speed AK-capable, which (especially the latter) are needed elsewhere. Surely you should not put stinky old Kisos here, but crying over you should not either, Gozans/Adens/Akasis are all nice.

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RE: Resources in Hokkaido - 11/30/2015 2:43:25 AM   
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Lokasenna
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
I wouldn't cry over it, but since those are going to be the ships that are always going to be moving, day in and day out for the entire war, whereas your other convoys may stop for escorts, for larger grouping, for rerouting, etc... I would put your ships with the best combination of size and fuel efficiency per hex per cargo on those duties.

It is actually pretty simple: Omi-Hak convoy will run 3 hexes in 2 or 3 days, spending most of its action points staying in ports. Every other convoy will sail twice as much or more every day being at sea. You severely underestimate the time of being at sea for other convoys. Only Fusan ones are comparable.
Not to mention your most fuel efficient ships are 15 and 18 speed AK-capable, which (especially the latter) are needed elsewhere. Surely you should not put stinky old Kisos here, but crying over you should not either, Gozans/Adens/Akasis are all nice.


You shouldn't have any Kiso or Tosu xAKLs. Convert them all to various types.

It's only 2 hexes of movement from Hakodate to Ominato, but if your ships are moving those 2 hexes every other day... that's 1 hex per day per ship. If you're using Gozans, that's 5.8 fuel per one-way trip (does that round up to 6?) for at most 2310 Resources, compared to 8.5 fuel per one-way trip for 3750 resources. For a round trip, that's 199 Resources per point of Fuel burned. A round trip for Akasi class ships (just an example of a more efficent ship) is 220 Resources per point of Fuel burned. Not that Gozans are that awful, but you should look to maximize the Ship Resource Load at each port while also maximizing the fuel efficiency. Gozans leave a lot of that wasted at Hakodate-Ominato.

I use Akasi class. With a load of 3750, they fit very well in the 4400 load for Hakodate and 4000 (un)load for Ominato (when both are at size 7). Gozan gets you 796 cargo points per fuel per hex, whereas Akasi gets you 882. That's a little more than +10% efficiency and you should be hauling out 34.2K+ resources per day, which is around 40% of the rest of Japan's Resource deficit. I barely ever pull in Resource convoys from other places in the empire, besides Fusan.

In the long run it won't really matter, but I do want to say that I've done the math. Not estimates, but the actual math. It helps that the only time I bring Resources back from farther flung places than Fusan or Hakodate is on return trips for troop convoys, so I didn't have to do the math on that part as otherwise they'd be returning empty. I've even loaded Resources onto xAPs...

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RE: Resources in Hokkaido - 11/30/2015 3:37:45 AM   
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BBfanboy
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Coach Zuck

PAX

I have a few TF's with smaller xAK's & xAKL's going back & forth between HAK/OMI.
They load in 1 day, travel day 2 & begin to unload(depending on fuel status), unload day 3 or finish unloading & return to HAK.
Lather-Rinse-Repeat

As others have said, you need to look at the Resource Industry in each of the bases on Hokkaido and add them up. Sapporo alone has 900 Resource production, and each point of production makes 10 resource tons per day - that's 9000 tons for Sapporo alone. Then there is the ~ 2 million tons of resources accumulated on Hokkaido at game start!

The resources will flow by rail to wherever they are being used or loaded. Can you honestly say your resource convoys are hauling more than 10,000 tons per day from Hokkaido?

BTW, don't obsess about moving all the resources from Hokkaido as they are produced - you will likely never succeed. You need to work out from your Industry screen how much you need to fully feed Light and Heavy Industry plus base building and filling out units for each island you have. Then you look at how much is available on site, work out how much to ship in, and start setting up your convoys.

As someone mentioned, Honshu/Kyushu/Shikoku are connected by rail bridges so they can be treated as one island in total.

EDIT: PS - the complexity of industry management is one reason that few newbies take on the role of Japan in their first campaign. You have to really like the number crunching to do it - and the rest of the game mechanics and strategy is already a challenge!

< Message edited by BBfanboy -- 11/30/2015 4:41:47 AM >

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RE: Resources in Hokkaido - 11/30/2015 7:32:14 PM   
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GetAssista
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
You shouldn't have any Kiso or Tosu xAKLs. Convert them all to various types.

Yes, and note I was not suggesting any of that hauling done by small dirty inefficient AKLs ;)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
but I do want to say that I've done the math. Not estimates, but the actual math.

Kudos! The math is always appreciated, there is too few of it in this world. Now lets do some more of it. The point is you should not view one route with isolation from the rest of the Empire. If you did, you would inevitably conclude that each route deserves the most efficient ship available because obviously the most fuel will be saved this way. But you have limited number of ships and you try to distribute them optimally.
Here is the math example to demonstrate that you need to put more efficient ships on longer routes first, and serve short routes with what is left. Assume we decide how to serve 2 routes of different length simultaneously: Hakodate-Ominato (2 hexes) and Shanghai-Nagasaki (12 hexes). The latter is 11 in game but lets make it 12 so that standard 3/3 convoy will make it in exactly 2 days for simplicity. Assume we assemble convoys to load in 1 day. Let's see how many hexes ships sail during the game on average:
H-O ~1.5 hex a day: 1 day load + 2 hex travel + partial unload
S-N ~4 hexes a day: 1 day load + 12 hex travel in 2 days
If all ports are 9 max convoy load in a day is 150k resources so all our convoys will include ships enough to haul 150k, and fuel usage for those 150k convoys is exactly proportional to ship fuel efficiency, no matter number of ships or their size.

Now you see, S-N ships burn more than twice as much fuel as H-O ships (if ships were identical) during their career for the set volume of hauling. This means you need put more efficient ships on S-N first.

Obviously with longer routes the difference is even more prominent. Note that the validity of the example does not actually depend on the size of ships or ports or the speed of ships. Convoys loading too long means ship usage inefficiency, but not fuel inefficiency as fuel only burns at sea.

< Message edited by GetAssista -- 11/30/2015 8:39:18 PM >

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RE: Resources in Hokkaido - 11/30/2015 8:51:26 PM   
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geofflambert
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Status: offline 		Consider upping your light industry on Hokkaido and turn those resources into supply. If you don't you'll have to ship supplies into Hokkaido (if you build up the defenses there). Hokkaido should also have some xAKLs so it can supply the Kuriles and any Aleutian bases you capture.

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RE: Resources in Hokkaido - 11/30/2015 9:53:40 PM   
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rustysi
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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Consider upping your light industry on Hokkaido and turn those resources into supply. If you don't you'll have to ship supplies into Hokkaido (if you build up the defenses there). Hokkaido should also have some xAKLs so it can supply the Kuriles and any Aleutian bases you capture.


+1

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RE: Resources in Hokkaido - 11/30/2015 9:55:33 PM   
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rustysi
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Status: offline 		Oh, and one more thing. There is a small amount of oil up here as well, it too should be brought back to the HI.

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RE: Resources in Hokkaido - 11/30/2015 9:56:40 PM   
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Lokasenna
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
You shouldn't have any Kiso or Tosu xAKLs. Convert them all to various types.

Yes, and note I was not suggesting any of that hauling done by small dirty inefficient AKLs ;)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
but I do want to say that I've done the math. Not estimates, but the actual math.

Kudos! The math is always appreciated, there is too few of it in this world. Now lets do some more of it. The point is you should not view one route with isolation from the rest of the Empire. If you did, you would inevitably conclude that each route deserves the most efficient ship available because obviously the most fuel will be saved this way. But you have limited number of ships and you try to distribute them optimally.
Here is the math example to demonstrate that you need to put more efficient ships on longer routes first, and serve short routes with what is left. Assume we decide how to serve 2 routes of different length simultaneously: Hakodate-Ominato (2 hexes) and Shanghai-Nagasaki (12 hexes). The latter is 11 in game but lets make it 12 so that standard 3/3 convoy will make it in exactly 2 days for simplicity. Assume we assemble convoys to load in 1 day. Let's see how many hexes ships sail during the game on average:
H-O ~1.5 hex a day: 1 day load + 2 hex travel + partial unload
S-N ~4 hexes a day: 1 day load + 12 hex travel in 2 days
If all ports are 9 max convoy load in a day is 150k resources so all our convoys will include ships enough to haul 150k, and fuel usage for those 150k convoys is exactly proportional to ship fuel efficiency, no matter number of ships or their size.

Now you see, S-N ships burn more than twice as much fuel as H-O ships (if ships were identical) during their career for the set volume of hauling. This means you need put more efficient ships on S-N first.

Obviously with longer routes the difference is even more prominent. Note that the validity of the example does not actually depend on the size of ships or ports or the speed of ships. Convoys loading too long means ship usage inefficiency, but not fuel inefficiency as fuel only burns at sea.


That all assumes that you are actually running the longer convoys to begin with. 2-times-0 is still 0. There's really no need to run these long-route convoys, with the exception of fuel, for which you're almost always using TKs and AOs anyway. Maybe you're using the xAKs with liquid capacity, but those are the high efficiency ships. And too large to load up in a single day at Hakodate .

I'm going to reiterate. I understand that, in principle, you should put the most efficient ships on the longest routes. But in practice, the total number of hexes traveled by those longer routes is going to be less than the total number of hexes traveled by the short trips because those longer routes are almost nonexistent. For me, they are nonexistent, with the exception of returning supply/troop convoys, but those spend a significant amount of time not actually sailing the routes.

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RE: Resources in Hokkaido - 11/9/2018 12:06:51 PM   
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Yaab
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Status: offline 		Thought this resources surplus in Hokkaido was just a bonus from the devs, but this paper says otherwise.

https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/japt1933/63/4/63_4_293/_article

"Metal, non-metal and coal minings and oil development grew rapidly during the World War I. And metal, non-metal and coal minings reached their highest production during the World War II."


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RE: Resources in Hokkaido - 11/12/2018 2:57:21 PM   
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Skyros
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Oh, and one more thing. There is a small amount of oil up here as well, it too should be brought back to the HI.

You will also need fuel to keep the HI industries going, so have that be the return cargo.

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RE: Resources in Hokkaido - 11/13/2018 3:48:03 PM   
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rustysi
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyros


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Oh, and one more thing. There is a small amount of oil up here as well, it too should be brought back to the HI.

You will also need fuel to keep the HI industries going, so have that be the return cargo.


Yup, plus enough to keep your Sakhalin-Hokkaido resource/supply run going.


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Skyros)
Post #: 27
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