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Losing Battles... - 11/24/2015 12:11:07 AM

gtrpastor

Posts: 58
Joined: 6/10/2009
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When I first got this game I kept losing battles...every time... It was still fun, but every once in a while I want to win. Well, finally I won Kasserine Pass. Great.

Now I was getting cocky. I can do this. I read that Arracourt was pretty easy. I played as the Allies. I got slaughtered. So I switched to the Axis. I was decimated...

I went through the tutorials a while back, and I've read a ton of stuff about this game. There's still a lot I don't get though. I guess I need to keep reading and playing. I'm not even going to ask for hints. Just venting...

I'm off to lose again. Wish me luck.

Post #: 1

RE: Losing Battles... - 11/24/2015 1:05:18 AM

Lobster

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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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Luck Bro

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A: A stick.

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Post #: 2

RE: Losing Battles... - 11/24/2015 9:49:04 AM

demyansk

Posts: 2840
Joined: 2/20/2008
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I have played this game quite a bit. The only thing that I am unable to figure out is when to press the button for completing the attacks and do I continue to plot all moves and then press the end turn button.

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Post #: 3

RE: Losing Battles... - 11/24/2015 11:29:06 AM

dox44

Posts: 668
Joined: 5/7/2000
From: the woodlands, texas
Status: offline

funny i got the game about a month or so ago. similar experience.

my only win is at Kasserine too...really fired me up so i stayed in
the desert. i'm not getting slaughtered but its getting dicey...going back and
forth across NAfrica.

great game.

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Post #: 4

RE: Losing Battles... - 11/24/2015 1:23:12 PM

Lobster

Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: demjansk

I have played this game quite a bit. The only thing that I am unable to figure out is when to press the button for completing the attacks and do I continue to plot all moves and then press the end turn button.

In the battle planner the gold squares mean that no battle rounds beyond those already used will be expended. Silver squards means you will use the gold plus extra rounds represented by the silver. If you have the circle of stars displayed they tell the same thing but it's on a global basis, not a per battle basis like in the battle planner. Each square in the battle planner represents 10% of the turn or one battle round.

Scenarios can be adjusted by the scenario designer so each battle consumes not more than a certain number of rounds. This is referred to as Maximum Rounds Per Battle or mrpb. The scenario designer might restrict a battle to consume only four rounds. This helps prevent what is called turn burn, meaning one battle can consume an entire turn. But even with mrpb set to consume say, three rounds, there are other factors that can end a turn before you use all ten battle rounds such as a failed force proficiency check.

From the manual. What they mean by attacks resolve quickly is those attacks that use up fewer of the ten battle rounds you get per turn:

20.2 Combat Planning Considerations
All units will have their Movement Allowances reduced to reflect
the amount of time necessary to resolve all attacks. This means
you should move most of your units before resolving any attacks.
If you believe all attacks will be resolved quickly, you should hold
back a few high Movement Allowance units for use as an exploitation
reserve. If you wish to exploit any breakthroughs before
your opponent can react, consider holding off on the kinds of
Attacks that are likely to take a long time to resolve � those involving
units that have expended most of their Movement Allowance
and fixed Attacks on defensive positions with probable
Ignore Losses orders emphasis.

Also:

14.1 Turn Over
Your Turn will end if any of the following conditions apply:
- You have launched no Attacks.
- The mean remaining Movement Allowance of your entire Force
is too small to allow for successful
exploitation of your Attacks;
i.e., an average of less than 20% of the Movement Points remaining
among the units involved in the last series of Attacks.
- Your Force fails a Proficiency Check. This is the primary use of
the Force Proficiency value, though it should be noted that the
Force Proficiency value is not the exact probability that the Turn
will continue after each series of Attacks.

If you have not read the manual I would suggest you do so. Then, like me, you can forget it all and have to reread it three or four times.

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RE: Losing Battles... - 11/24/2015 3:20:56 PM

gtrpastor

Posts: 58
Joined: 6/10/2009
Status: offline

Okay, I said I wouldn't ask for any hints, but I changed my mind...

I think I am just being too impatient with this game. I have played a lot of Panzer General/Panzer Corps, and I was looking for something more in depth. Well, this is definitely that. I think that I'm wanting the game to move fast like PC, and it doesn't. One thing that is throwing me off--when I look at each unit, there's a lot of men and equipment in there. But I've been treating each one like a "unit" anyway (like in PC). I just look at the NATO symbol and figure that a tank is a tank (I know it's not that simple). I'm used to having an idea how an attack will turn out--in PC you see your expected win-loss ratio. Here, there's nothing like that. There is an attack and defense value, but how how valuable is that in knowing whether to attack? Am I supposed to study the equipment in each unit formation?

I read the manual. I suppose I need to read it again...

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Post #: 6

RE: Losing Battles... - 11/24/2015 3:56:56 PM

Tcao

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�Success is the ability to go from failure to failure without losing your enthusiasm�
� Winston Churchill

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Post #: 7

RE: Losing Battles... - 11/24/2015 5:06:59 PM

ogar

Posts: 297
Joined: 9/6/2009
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These may not be the hints you are looking for :

1) Good old Kasserine ! My first win, after dozens of losses, too.

2) Stick with short-medium size scenarios, and play the historical victor.

3) Take a lot at Steve's You-tubes (SpzAbt653) -- they are in the TOAW ARTICLE INDEX stickied on the TOAWIII forum main page. Or try Oberst_Klink's tutorial and/or his Pz Korps 48. Email either of those guys if you cannot find what you are looking for - each is very helpful.

4) Read what Lobster has posted, esp. about the Attack Planner, and pay attention to that Assualt Ratio. When AR <100, don't bother; often, I'll skip an attack if the ratio is less than 150.

5) Aim to get 4 or 5 combat rounds per turn; more is great, but 4 or 5 is a good goal.

6) Think about what you're trying to achieve with an attack vs just blowing through it. TOAW puts a premium on rested, supplied units; armor is usually stronger than other types; supporting units can determining whether you win or lose a combat. Look at your losses, and the opponent's. What could you have added or not done to make an attack successful.

7) Playing against the PO is useful -- but it has its limits. When you've got some more games completed (win or lose), try asking for an opponent who is willing to help you. Folks are busy with things, but helpful opponents are out there. And you do learn a lot just by playing against the old pros. And sometimes the rookie wins. It does happen.

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Post #: 8

RE: Losing Battles... - 11/24/2015 6:19:53 PM

gtrpastor

Posts: 58
Joined: 6/10/2009
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Thanks ogar, those look like some helpful tips.

I didn't realize that there was an assault ratio in the attack planner. I'll have to pay closer attention to that.

I watched Steve's videos, and they were very good. But I think I need to watch them again. I can't remember everything. I wish there were some AAR videos for this game. I'd love to see someone explain everything while playing through a scenario. I've read some AARs, but it's harder for me to read than to watch.

One of the things I don't like about this game is the combat rounds. I understand the reasoning behind it. But it makes more sense to have something like Action points per unit (like Advanced Tactics). I tend to ignore it completely (which is probably another reason I am losing).

Thanks again. I appreciate the helpful comments.

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Post #: 9

RE: Losing Battles... - 11/24/2015 7:23:24 PM

gtrpastor

Posts: 58
Joined: 6/10/2009
Status: offline

Now, looking at it again, I see the combat probability at the bottom of the attack planner. I recall it being there now, I just wasn't paying attention. :P So much to consider in this game!

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Post #: 10

RE: Losing Battles... - 11/25/2015 3:37:46 PM

Lobster

Posts: 5104
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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: speef

something like Action points per unit (like Advanced Tactics).

Never played Advanced Tactics so don't understand action points and movement. Could you please explain?

_____________________________

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Post #: 11

RE: Losing Battles... - 11/25/2015 4:53:57 PM

gtrpastor

Posts: 58
Joined: 6/10/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

quote:

ORIGINAL: speef

something like Action points per unit (like Advanced Tactics).

Never played Advanced Tactics so don't understand action points and movement. Could you please explain?

Sure... Each unit gets a certain amount of action points (AP). So there is limit to movement, but it is determined per unit. Moving a certain number of hexes will use a certain amount of AP, or I can use all my AP to move as far as I want. Attacking also uses AP. I can move and attack, in the same turn with a unit, but each will be limited in effectiveness due to limited AP. I really like the way the system works.

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Post #: 12

RE: Losing Battles... - 11/25/2015 5:18:37 PM

ogar

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I, too, am not familiar with AT, but the APs seem very familiar to me.

In TOAW, Movement Points serve several functions - movement, of course, but they also work akin to APs. If a unit has 20 MP at the start of a turn and moves, using 6 MPs, then it has used up three-tenths (6/20) of "its" turn. That is, if that unit attacks, it already starts "its turn" at 30% used; if the combat takes two rounds, (20% of theoretical), then after that combat, the amount available has dropped the MP total down to 10. (20 --> 14; combat -->(20% of 20 rounded to 4) = 10).

What's worse, the game currently* looks for the minimum ratio of MP remaining/MP starting after all combat. Let's say, the example 10/20 is the minimum. That rounds to 50% MP remaining. FOR EVERY UNIT IN THE GAME, even the ones that did not move.

You have to look at how much each unit has moved or fought, each time you plan a combat. This is why Lobster has been emphasizing "look at gold and silver squares" in the Attack Planner or look at the Circle of Stars (under the buttons panel) to show the effect of combat with this unit. It is subtle and easy to miss, but if you make a habit of it, it becomes, well, er, um, habitual.

Sounds like your experience with APs will serve you well -- you just need to get in the habit of looking in the right place for forecasted** effect of combat.

* currently, because there is an adjustment with TOAW IV that is supposed to be fine-tune this down to Formation level vs Force level.

** forecasted, because the Stars/Squares are just that -- an estimate. A good estimate 80+% of the time, but supporting effects do interfere with the forecast occassionally.

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Post #: 13

RE: Losing Battles... - 11/25/2015 5:29:41 PM

gtrpastor

Posts: 58
Joined: 6/10/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ogar

I, too, am not familiar with AT, but the APs seem very familiar to me.

In TOAW, Movement Points serve several functions - movement, of course, but they also work akin to APs. If a unit has 20 MP at the start of a turn and moves, using 6 MPs, then it has used up three-tenths (6/20) of "its" turn. That is, if that unit attacks, it already starts "its turn" at 30% used; if the combat takes two rounds, (20% of theoretical), then after that combat, the amount available has dropped the MP total down to 10. (20 --> 14; combat -->(20% of 20 rounded to 4) = 10).

What's worse, the game currently* looks for the minimum ratio of MP remaining/MP starting after all combat. Let's say, the example 10/20 is the minimum. That rounds to 50% MP remaining. FOR EVERY UNIT IN THE GAME, even the ones that did not move.

You have to look at how much each unit has moved or fought, each time you plan a combat. This is why Lobster has been emphasizing "look at gold and silver squares" in the Attack Planner or look at the Circle of Stars (under the buttons panel) to show the effect of combat with this unit. It is subtle and easy to miss, but if you make a habit of it, it becomes, well, er, um, habitual.

Sounds like your experience with APs will serve you well -- you just need to get in the habit of looking in the right place for forecasted** effect of combat.

* currently, because there is an adjustment with TOAW IV that is supposed to be fine-tune this down to Formation level vs Force level.

** forecasted, because the Stars/Squares are just that -- an estimate. A good estimate 80+% of the time, but supporting effects do interfere with the forecast occassionally.

Thanks for the tips. I guess I'll have to use the planner and pay closer attention. A lot of the time I haven't been using it. I just attack. It's all coming down to patience and attention--two deficits for me :)

There's a few things about this game that require lots of mental adjusting. But for some strange reason I like it and keep coming back to it. It's still fun to lose. (Good thing I'm not an actual general).

I also noticed that the circle of stars doesn't show on my laptop. I loaded the game on my PC, and now I can see how much of the turn is used. That's a handy tool. I wish I knew how to get it on the smaller screen.

< Message edited by speef -- 11/25/2015 6:30:22 PM >

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Post #: 14

RE: Losing Battles... - 11/25/2015 9:45:31 PM

Lobster

Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: speef

That's a handy tool. I wish I knew how to get it on the smaller screen.

It's a matter of screen resolution. Higher resolution numbers = more stars.

As for the AP. The basic flaw with that type of system is that it ignores time and space considerations. I can't take a game that does that as a serious war game. It's a fun kind of system sure, but if I want to play a serious war game I would play something else. You can never make a igougo game mimic time and space properly. Impossible. But the system Norm came up with is probably one of the better at compensating for the problems of a turn based game. There are still some really strange things that happen when you think about it.

Example. Movement consumes time the same as combat. Scotty isn't here to beam anyone anywhere. You have a scenario with one day turns. So say you surround a unit and the last unit to encircle the unit uses all of it's movement points, in other words, it got there at the end of the day (movement=time). The two units you use to attack the encircled unit started the turn adjacent to the encircled unit so they used no movement points. It's the beginning of the day for them (no movement=no time). Those two units attack and force the encircled unit to retreat but it can't because it has no place to go so it gets totally destroyed. Evaporates in TOAW terms. But wait. How could the last unit to complete the encirclement be where it is if it used all of it's movement points? In other words, it didn't get there until the end of the day but the attack and retreat took place at the beginning of the day. So the encircled unit wasn't really encircled at the time of the combat and in reality had a place to retreat to. This is one of the problems of igougo. But it isn't as bad as totally ignoring time and space.

When you conduct a combat in TOAW it not only uses time for the units conducting the combat, it uses time all across the board. This is right and proper. Nothing happens in a time vacuum. What you have to do is take the time to think. Not just move units around but think about how much time you will consume in combats. That is what the attack planner helps with. It's not 100% accurate, it's more of a guide.

So, move all of your units to where you need them to make attacks. Make the attacks that consume the least amount of time first(use the fewest gold/silver squares). These units may have a chance to move and conduct more combats. Then do the next ones that will consume the least amount of time. And so on until you've used up all ten rounds.

Remember cooperation levels, enemy deployments, your guys readiness levels, etc. The less cooperative units are with each other the more rounds a combat chews up. The more stubborn a defense (minimize, limited, ignore losses) the more rounds it chews up. The more intense your attack (minimize, limited, ignore losses) the more rounds it will chew up. The more the health button is shifted towards red the more rounds that will be chewed up. 150mm artillery and higher may reduce the enemy's defensive works. Combat air support is ok but it chews up air units. And on and on and on.

Anyway, good luck.

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Post #: 15

RE: Losing Battles... - 11/25/2015 9:59:16 PM

gtrpastor

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Joined: 6/10/2009
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Thanks Lobster. You've been very helpful. I'll keep trying at this. Maybe I'll check in when I win something other than Kassarine.

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Post #: 16

RE: Losing Battles... - 12/1/2015 7:46:09 PM

murphstein

Posts: 26
Joined: 8/3/2006
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Looks like it's time for another "newbie" training camp? In the interim, I'd be happy to play a PBEM game with someone and share what I've learned over the years. IIRC, the one I was in used "Two Weeks In Normandy" and "Road to Rimini" as learning experiences. Is General Staff still around?

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Dan Murphy

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Post #: 17

RE: Losing Battles... - 12/1/2015 9:54:26 PM

gtrpastor

Posts: 58
Joined: 6/10/2009
Status: offline

murphstein - I'd be interested in playing a PBEM game with you, if you don't mind the fact that I am a newb. In fact, I am so green, I'm not even sure how to play a PBEM game...

Anyway, let me know if you're interested, and what I need to do next...

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Post #: 18

RE: Losing Battles... - 12/3/2015 2:13:03 PM

Oberst_Klink

Posts: 4778
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: speef

quote:

ORIGINAL: ogar

I, too, am not familiar with AT, but the APs seem very familiar to me.

In TOAW, Movement Points serve several functions - movement, of course, but they also work akin to APs. If a unit has 20 MP at the start of a turn and moves, using 6 MPs, then it has used up three-tenths (6/20) of "its" turn. That is, if that unit attacks, it already starts "its turn" at 30% used; if the combat takes two rounds, (20% of theoretical), then after that combat, the amount available has dropped the MP total down to 10. (20 --> 14; combat -->(20% of 20 rounded to 4) = 10).

What's worse, the game currently* looks for the minimum ratio of MP remaining/MP starting after all combat. Let's say, the example 10/20 is the minimum. That rounds to 50% MP remaining. FOR EVERY UNIT IN THE GAME, even the ones that did not move.

You have to look at how much each unit has moved or fought, each time you plan a combat. This is why Lobster has been emphasizing "look at gold and silver squares" in the Attack Planner or look at the Circle of Stars (under the buttons panel) to show the effect of combat with this unit. It is subtle and easy to miss, but if you make a habit of it, it becomes, well, er, um, habitual.

Sounds like your experience with APs will serve you well -- you just need to get in the habit of looking in the right place for forecasted** effect of combat.

* currently, because there is an adjustment with TOAW IV that is supposed to be fine-tune this down to Formation level vs Force level.

** forecasted, because the Stars/Squares are just that -- an estimate. A good estimate 80+% of the time, but supporting effects do interfere with the forecast occassionally.

Thanks for the tips. I guess I'll have to use the planner and pay closer attention. A lot of the time I haven't been using it. I just attack. It's all coming down to patience and attention--two deficits for me :)

There's a few things about this game that require lots of mental adjusting. But for some strange reason I like it and keep coming back to it. It's still fun to lose. (Good thing I'm not an actual general).

I also noticed that the circle of stars doesn't show on my laptop. I loaded the game on my PC, and now I can see how much of the turn is used. That's a handy tool. I wish I knew how to get it on the smaller screen.

For a sandbox scenario that explains the basics, plus some slides, I got my old Tutorial '41 still handy:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/56215959/TOAW%20Tutorial.zip
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/56215959/Tutorial%20%2741.zip

Klink, Oberst

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Visit CS Legion on Twitter & Facebook for updates.

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Post #: 19

RE: Losing Battles... - 7/20/2016 12:55:36 AM

Catch21

Posts: 511
Joined: 4/13/2006
From: Dublin
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: murphstein
Is General Staff still around?

I look in from time to time, and occasionally help with a Q if I can.

The Road to Rimini AAR is still out there.

Also the Two Weeks in Normandy AAR here.

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Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
(J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

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Post #: 20