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Relationship effects of decisions? - 12/1/2015 4:18:13 AM   
76mm


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Status: offline 		I'm still playing through the manual, and have played a couple of turns, but I haven't seen a way to know how relationships will be affected BEFORE you make a decision--is this possible?

In other words, after I've made a decision, I find out that I lose X relationship points with General X, and gain Y with General Y--but how can I tell before making the decision? Surely I would have some idea about who I would piss off/please by making certain decisions?
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RE: Relationship effects of decisions? - 12/1/2015 5:38:37 AM   
zakblood


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Status: offline 		here's a quote / screenshot from the manual, does a better job than i can or could do, his tips gives good advice as it all depend on other choices as well, regarding results, so in the end there's no right or wrong answer either, just either wrong or right at the time, and next time you play it, it may be the other way around







if like me you try and stick to the same answers for the same question on a replay, you soon find out it doesn't work as next time you play, the reply is different as something else has changed, so not predictable so imo add's to the re playability

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< Message edited by zakblood -- 12/1/2015 6:40:11 AM >

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RE: Relationship effects of decisions? - 12/1/2015 5:41:24 AM   
mekjak

 

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Status: offline 		Agreed. A lot of the decisions are pretty opaque as to what actual gameplay effect they will have. In some cases that makes sense for role playing, but there are situations where I am completely baffled as to why certain choices made some characters mad and others pleased. Not great when you find out you suddenly can't give focus to a panzer group anymore.

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RE: Relationship effects of decisions? - 12/1/2015 6:00:53 AM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zakblood
...regarding results, so in the end there's no right or wrong answer either, just either wrong or right at the time, and next time you play it, it may be the other way around


That's fine if PP costs, etc. change between games, but it is odd and unrealistic to have absolutely no idea what impact your decisions might have on relations with other humans...

As commander I am not operating in a vacuum, and if I have a bad relationship with someone I might consciously make decisions that could improve that relationship.

Could you imagine going through life without any clue as to how your spouse/boss/subordinates would react if you did X or Y (OK, maybe to expect otherwise from spouses is unrealistic)?

< Message edited by 76mm -- 12/1/2015 7:02:54 AM >

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RE: Relationship effects of decisions? - 12/1/2015 6:35:32 AM   
zakblood


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Status: offline 		i couldn't no, but the C&C head of the German command structure liked it seems to have all his commanders infighting and had no idea that this was a bad thing, in his eyes maybe it was good, as if they fought each other, they wouldn't all gang up on him, maybe, so in this point imo it's a good choice and plays well, in real life in the real world you wouldn't want it, then again that's why they failed, so as you have to juggle this in the game, it does imo only mind you, speaking as a tester and low end player, work as a rpg sim, some will like it, some will love it, others may dislike or hate it, that's why the option to not use it is in the game as well.

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RE: Relationship effects of decisions? - 12/1/2015 6:36:16 AM   
stonestriker

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: zakblood
...regarding results, so in the end there's no right or wrong answer either, just either wrong or right at the time, and next time you play it, it may be the other way around


That's fine if PP costs, etc. change between games, but it is odd and unrealistic to have absolutely no idea what impact your decisions might have on relations with other humans...

As commander I am not operating in a vacuum, and if I have a bad relationship with someone I might consciously make decisions that could improve that relationship.

Could you imagine going through life without any clue as to how your spouse/boss/subordinates would react if you did X or Y (OK, maybe to expect otherwise from spouses is unrealistic)?


Have you read the latest dev blog (http://www.vrdesigns.nl/)? The comparison to your spouse might not be far off :-)

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RE: Relationship effects of decisions? - 12/1/2015 6:54:06 AM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zakblood
...liked it seems to have all his commanders infighting and had no idea that this was a bad thing, in his eyes maybe it was good, as if they fought each other, they wouldn't all gang up on him, maybe, so in this point imo it's a good choice and plays well, in real life in the real world you wouldn't want it, then again that's why they failed...


I'm not arguing about the inclusion of bureaucratic infighting, but it sure seems that if you're in the midst of this stuff before you make decisions you'd have some idea of how they might affect your relationships with others.

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RE: Relationship effects of decisions? - 12/1/2015 6:55:00 AM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stonestriker
The comparison to your spouse might not be far off :-)


Ahem, I don't have a spouse, I included that for the benefit of those that do!

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RE: Relationship effects of decisions? - 12/1/2015 7:08:23 AM   
stonestriker

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: stonestriker
The comparison to your spouse might not be far off :-)


Ahem, I don't have a spouse, I included that for the benefit of those that do!


'Your' as in Halders wife. This is a RPG-wargame after all :)

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RE: Relationship effects of decisions? - 12/1/2015 7:15:56 AM   
zakblood


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Status: offline 		i have one, and tbh never have a clue what's going off in her head, any decision regarding the other better half is also pure guess work, but that's maybe off topic as well

but i understand your comments 76mm, hopefully a developer will chip in with some insight as well soon

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RE: Relationship effects of decisions? - 12/1/2015 7:16:18 AM   
mekjak

 

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Status: offline 		It's not just relationship changes either. I had no idea what the any of the rail infrastructure decisions do (apparently if infrastructure is bad it reduces the effective number of trains that can operate on that route?) until a few turns after I had already made the decision. The game doesn't tell you the effects of leaving your security divisions on mop up duty (reduces the chance of divisions starting the turn with reduced AP which simulates being slowed down by remnant Soviet units) until after you have already made the decision, and that's only if you pay close attention to the daily logs. If you don't choose a railway conversion route at the beginning does the AI pick one for you? I have no idea. A handful of events, like the one about blitzkrieg fuel efficiency, have a helpful explanation of the actual gameplay effects of each choice but most don't.

Another thing, why should I care about relations with characters like Goebbels for example? His propaganda events always cost a ton of PP but I don't see a downside to declining them. Is this one of the role playing event trees that doesn't have an actual effect on the game? Maybe you should tell the player or reduce the PP cost if that's the case.

Don't get me wrong - I love the idea and presentation of the decision system and this kind of innovation is what computer wargames need more of, but at the end of the day it's not good design IMO to force the player to spend precious PP for unknown effects or pay no PP and suffer unknown consequences.

< Message edited by mekjak -- 12/1/2015 8:24:48 AM >

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RE: Relationship effects of decisions? - 12/1/2015 3:19:30 PM   
willgamer


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Status: offline 		For me, having to decide without all the facts mimics the real situation rather well. Different gaming skills, knowledge of history, real life experiences will inform how you decide. You are presented with all the facts that staff has, including backgrounders most of the time, on the other personalities. So what's your gut telling you?

Give it your best shot and live with it. It's the opposite of "spreadsheet" war gaming that we all complain about!

If this kind of immersion (RPWG- role playing war game) is not your thing, you can always just turn it off. However I consider RPWG to be a significant new breakthrough in the art of war gaming.

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RE: Relationship effects of decisions? - 12/1/2015 3:30:14 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willgamer
For me, having to decide without all the facts mimics the real situation rather well. Different gaming skills, knowledge of history, real life experiences will inform how you decide. You are presented with all the facts that staff has, including backgrounders most of the time, on the other personalities. So what's your gut telling you?


Dunno...for me there is a big difference between having to decide without ALL the facts and having to decide without ANY of the facts, as is often the case here...you're presented with some options without any context or even a vague notion of the consequences. My gut tells me to simply flip a coin, because my decision won't be much better.

I've only played a turn into the game so far, so maybe "situational awareness" will pick up as the game progresses, we'll see.

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RE: Relationship effects of decisions? - 12/1/2015 3:33:37 PM   
Santini

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: willgamer
For me, having to decide without all the facts mimics the real situation rather well. Different gaming skills, knowledge of history, real life experiences will inform how you decide. You are presented with all the facts that staff has, including backgrounders most of the time, on the other personalities. So what's your gut telling you?


Dunno...for me there is a big difference between having to decide without ALL the facts and having to decide without ANY of the facts, as is often the case here...you're presented with some options without any context or even a vague notion of the consequences. My gut tells me to simply flip a coin, because my decision won't be much better.

I've only played a turn into the game so far, so maybe "situational awareness" will pick up as the game progresses, we'll see.



I agree.

Having a list of the affected parties with a ++, +, +/-, -, -- would help

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RE: Relationship effects of decisions? - 12/1/2015 3:47:58 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zakblood

i couldn't no, but the C&C head of the German command structure liked it seems to have all his commanders infighting and had no idea that this was a bad thing, in his eyes maybe it was good, as if they fought each other, they wouldn't all gang up on him, maybe, so in this point imo it's a good choice and plays well, in real life in the real world you wouldn't want it, then again that's why they failed, so as you have to juggle this in the game, it does imo only mind you, speaking as a tester and low end player, work as a rpg sim, some will like it, some will love it, others may dislike or hate it, that's why the option to not use it is in the game as well.


I agree.

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RE: Relationship effects of decisions? - 12/1/2015 3:53:04 PM   
76mm


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Status: offline 		Actually, I think I found something useful; if you are making a decision, there is a box on the right with various items listed; one of them called "Option Cost Breakdown" seems to list various factors, including relationship results.

It's a bit opaque, but I think that's what this item shows...

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RE: Relationship effects of decisions? - 12/1/2015 4:08:14 PM   
Vic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Actually, I think I found something useful; if you are making a decision, there is a box on the right with various items listed; one of them called "Option Cost Breakdown" seems to list various factors, including relationship results.

It's a bit opaque, but I think that's what this item shows...


In fact it show relationship modifiers for the PP cost of the different choices available to you.


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RE: Relationship effects of decisions? - 12/1/2015 4:37:55 PM   
KenchiSulla


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Status: offline 		So far (about 5 turns into the game now as Germans) it helps me to place myself in the shoes of the parties involved in the discussion... You can read the notes / memo's they sent you in one of the tabs. A good indication of how they'll react to your decision...

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RE: Relationship effects of decisions? - 12/1/2015 4:38:57 PM   
willgamer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Actually, I think I found something useful; if you are making a decision, there is a box on the right with various items listed; one of them called "Option Cost Breakdown" seems to list various factors, including relationship results.

It's a bit opaque, but I think that's what this item shows...


In fact it show relationship modifiers for the PP cost of the different choices available to you.



The truth is, there is A LOT of relevant in game reading that is built into this game. Quite different to extrapolating everything you need to know from the numbers.

The staff reports are not just chrome; ditto for the radio reports.

The first few turns I spend more time reading in game than pushing counters.

< Message edited by willgamer -- 12/1/2015 5:39:51 PM >

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RE: Relationship effects of decisions? - 12/1/2015 4:52:22 PM   
Barthheart


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willgamer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Actually, I think I found something useful; if you are making a decision, there is a box on the right with various items listed; one of them called "Option Cost Breakdown" seems to list various factors, including relationship results.

It's a bit opaque, but I think that's what this item shows...


In fact it show relationship modifiers for the PP cost of the different choices available to you.



The truth is, there is A LOT of relevant in game reading that is built into this game. Quite different to extrapolating everything you need to know from the numbers.

The staff reports are not just chrome; ditto for the radio reports.

The first few turns I spend more time reading in game than pushing counters.


+1


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RE: Relationship effects of decisions? - 12/1/2015 9:21:16 PM   
lancer

 

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Status: offline 		Hi,

The approach I've taken to the decisions is that they are presented from the point of view of the Operational Commander picking up the next one from the big pile on his desk, flipping through the reports, asking for more information from his staff if needed, and then making the call.

There are no surprises in the decisions.

All the information you need to make them is provided in the report bundles. With every decision there are at least two points of views. You'll see reports from the characters involved and how they view the situation. If General Wagner has a report there expressing his displeasure about whatever then you can expect that your relationship with him will deteriorate if you go against his recommendation.

If there is a random roll involved in a decision option then this is flagged and you're given '40% chance of a good outcome', for example to allow you to make an informed judgement of the pros and cons.

Franz Halder didn't sit at his desk reading reports that told him that option A will give him ++ relations with Himmler, - relations with Von Bock and a +23% boost to SS Div morale.

The decisions are designed to accommodate different leadership styles. A player who is a big picture guy can skim the barest details and make the call. Another player will take the time to read through the report bundle and weigh up the the various factors and personalities in play. Somebody else might decided to handball most of the decisions to his Chief of Staff and focus on the big picture.

They are all valid ways of playing the game, none of them necessarily any better than the other, but you'll get a different outcome from all three as you would in any aspect of life where weighty decisions are involved.

The 'Option Cost' report at the bottom of every report bundle gives a breakdown on why each decision option costs what it does.

Cheers,
Cameron

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RE: Relationship effects of decisions? - 12/2/2015 3:10:29 AM   
76mm


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Status: offline 		OK, the report bundle and Option Cost report seems to address the issue to me.

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RE: Relationship effects of decisions? - 12/2/2015 10:58:35 AM   
etsadler

 

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Status: offline 		To 76's point about IRL knowing what people's reactions will be, that knowledge will be gained over time, you were not born knowing. Yes these folks did work together and knew each other somewhat (and some better than others), but there are not hard and fast rules.

I look at the decisions critically. If AGN has captured some Russian trucks, and kept them, and Gen Wagner is demanding they be given to him, its not hard to imagine that if you take the trucks and give them to Wagner that von Leeb is going to be annoyed about it. One time he might be -5 annoyed, another time -15. The variability is one of the great things about the game IMHO.

Or, to put it another way, the game no more tells you that it is a "good" idea to take the trucks than it tells you it is a "bad" idea to attack 5 defending divisions across a river in mud with only one division. You are left to figure those things out for yourself.

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RE: Relationship effects of decisions? - 12/2/2015 6:29:51 PM   
Santini

 

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quote:


Franz Halder didn't sit at his desk reading reports that told him that option A will give him ++ relations with Himmler, - relations with Von Bock and a +23% boost to SS Div morale.


You'd think he'd have an idea, at the least. But, if your intent is that we play blind, then blind we shall play

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Post #: 24
RE: Relationship effects of decisions? - 12/2/2015 11:09:44 PM   
lancer

 

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Status: offline 		Hi BrotherJayne,

Nope, you aren't expected to wear dark glasses.

The characters involved have written reports expressing their views on the matter and their reasoning. These are available to you to read if you wish.

Which is about all the hard information Halder probably had to go on.

The reports give you an a clear idea of a characters position on the topic in question and why.

Keep in mind that the decisions are situational.

There isn't any one right answer to them. It all depends on your current situation, both militarily and relationship wise.

What works with a particular decision one time might not be ideal the next.

Cheers,
Cameron

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Post #: 25
RE: Relationship effects of decisions? - 12/3/2015 12:11:50 AM   
Santini

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lancer
The reports give you an a clear idea of a characters position on the topic in question and why.


So, playing as krauts, you have the AGN and AGC rail route decisions. In those, Keitel sounds ready to burst a vessel if you make a decision, yet there is no impact to relationship if you make a choice.

That seems murky.


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Post #: 26
RE: Relationship effects of decisions? - 12/3/2015 1:44:06 AM   
lancer

 

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Status: offline 		Hi,

I was being a little benevolent here. Didn't want to hit you too hard at the start of the game.

It can be tweaked.

Cheers,
Cameron

(in reply to Santini)
Post #: 27
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