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TK or AO TF auto created by AI

 
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TK or AO TF auto created by AI - 12/15/2015 8:48:20 AM   
Tigrizzli


Posts: 27
Joined: 3/12/2015
Status: offline 		Hello, something strange is occurring. two or more TK or AO TFs are systemically created by ...don't know, maybe some Japanese saboteurs, even if Osaka is only used as a depot for those ships (this is no longer a game as all is left of Japan is Tokyo...) so, it's not at all important but maybe it is interesting for someone to check what is going there.
It started maybe a few (ingames) weeks ago, but never seen it before (maybe in the old WITP something similar appeared sometimes if I remember...)

I am not sure of the way to attach a save so I replace .wps by .zip, this is a save for 'before'

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Tigrizzli -- 12/15/2015 9:54:49 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: TK or AO TF auto created by AI - 12/15/2015 8:54:07 AM   
Tigrizzli


Posts: 27
Joined: 3/12/2015
Status: offline 		I have the After save but I can't find the way to add something in the reply (not enough practice in this forum I presume...) and captures of before after ...

Yves

(in reply to Tigrizzli)
Post #: 2
RE: TK or AO TF auto created by AI - 12/15/2015 9:18:16 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		I don't quite follow what you're saying, but the AI creates TFs all the time. Are you saying you're at the end game where the only base left for Japan is Tokyo? If that's so, you're sort of at an edge condition where the AI is sort of spazzing around. If there are still other bases the Japanese hold, the AI will create TFs to try and move supply and fuel around, even if the Allies have the base surrounded. Again you're kind of in an extreme situation.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Tigrizzli)
Post #: 3
RE: TK or AO TF auto created by AI - 12/15/2015 9:35:32 AM   
Tigrizzli


Posts: 27
Joined: 3/12/2015
Status: offline 		Of course, it is not representative of a normal game because it remains only one city for the Japanese AI, it is Tokyo, but those are "my" tankers (Osaka is mine) forming two new TFs (each of two TK or AO) doing nothing.
Sorry for my poor english, it's not my native language... and I can't find the way to insert a screen capture on this reply?
each turn two more tf... (looks like those fury little creatures in the old game ELITE but it is off topic I suppose! :) )
I played WITP then AE since many years so,it is not something usual or WAD

(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 4
RE: TK or AO TF auto created by AI - 12/15/2015 11:20:26 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		Still not clear what you are experiencing.  Could you answer the following questions in order to make it clearer.

1.  You are the Allied player and the computer is the Japanese player?

2.  Osaka is an Allied base?

3.  Tokyo is a Japanese base?

4.  Are there any other Japanese bases anywhere on the map?

5.  Each turn the computer creates 2 task forces at Osaka?

6.  Only Allied TK or AO type ships are placed in the task forces created at Osaka?

7.  Is either fuel or oil loaded onto the ships?

8.  Do the task forces created the previous turn at Osaka get disbanded automatically?

9.  What is the destination and home port of the auto generated task forces at Osaka?

10.  Are the auto generated task forces at Osaka under "Human Control" or under "CS Control"?

11.  Do you have Auto Convoys activated?

12.  Are there any Japanese ships still afloat, either at sea or in port at Tokyo?

13.  Are the auto generated task forces led by a Japanese or Allied leader?

14.  What is the game date?

15.  Have you already achieved an auto victory and elected to continue playing the game?

16.  How many Allied ships are disbanded in the port of Osaka?

17.  Does Osaka have more oil or fuel than the "required amount" listed on the base screen?

Alfred

(in reply to Tigrizzli)
Post #: 5
RE: TK or AO TF auto created by AI - 12/15/2015 12:00:58 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigrizzli

Of course, it is not representative of a normal game because it remains only one city for the Japanese AI, it is Tokyo, but those are "my" tankers (Osaka is mine) forming two new TFs (each of two TK or AO) doing nothing.
Sorry for my poor english, it's not my native language... and I can't find the way to insert a screen capture on this reply?
each turn two more tf... (looks like those fury little creatures in the old game ELITE but it is off topic I suppose! :) )
I played WITP then AE since many years so,it is not something usual or WAD

When you capture an enemy base by combat the shipbuilding industry converts to Repair Shipyards, but if you capture it by occupation (because there were no enemy troops there) the Naval Shipyard and Merchant Shipyards remain and become yours, presumably with the ships under construction at the time.

There is an odd quirk in that the icons for those industries may not appear at the bottom of the screen when you select the base hex, but if you click the Industry icon for the base at the lower left (below the land units icon) you can see the list of industry there. If the merchant shipyard is still in operation with production set to "on", those ships could have been completed ships, but probably Japanese models. The AI would be confused by this since a Japanese model tanker is not anywhere in the Allied order of battle.

Is the issue that those TFs are your colours but you are unable to select them and give them orders?




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by BBfanboy -- 12/15/2015 1:10:58 PM >

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(in reply to Tigrizzli)
Post #: 6
RE: TK or AO TF auto created by AI - 12/15/2015 12:56:25 PM   
Tigrizzli


Posts: 27
Joined: 3/12/2015
Status: offline 		It is not the case. I have troubles answering Alfred's post as something block me on the forum (like: you are not allowed to post links, emails, or phone numbers for7 days from the date of your tenth post...???)
But those are regular US TF two more each turn...

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 7
RE: TK or AO TF auto created by AI - 12/15/2015 1:11:17 PM   
Tigrizzli


Posts: 27
Joined: 3/12/2015
Status: offline 		another try to bypass this problem:



Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Tigrizzli -- 12/15/2015 2:13:03 PM >

(in reply to Tigrizzli)
Post #: 8
RE: TK or AO TF auto created by AI - 12/15/2015 1:16:17 PM   
Tigrizzli


Posts: 27
Joined: 3/12/2015
Status: offline 		[image] [/image]

Initial test situation with all ships disbanded, none incoming, nothing building...

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Tigrizzli -- 12/15/2015 3:24:11 PM >

(in reply to Tigrizzli)
Post #: 9
RE: TK or AO TF auto created by AI - 12/15/2015 1:18:54 PM   
Tigrizzli


Posts: 27
Joined: 3/12/2015
Status: offline 		[image] [/image]

two turns later...

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Tigrizzli)
Post #: 10
RE: TK or AO TF auto created by AI - 12/15/2015 1:30:43 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigrizzli

It is not the case. I have troubles answering Alfred's post as something block me on the forum (like: you are not allowed to post links, emails, or phone numbers for7 days from the date of your tenth post...???)
But those are regular US TF two more each turn...

If you are able to select them, I am guessing that they came from the captured shipyard but are now your ships to give orders to. Just treat them as new arrivals and send them to go get a load of supply or fuel.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Tigrizzli)
Post #: 11
RE: TK or AO TF auto created by AI - 12/15/2015 2:18:04 PM   
Tigrizzli


Posts: 27
Joined: 3/12/2015
Status: offline 		[image][/image]

Nothing remain of the imperial industry (see attachement)

and the ship are taken from the disbanded pool (initially 16xTK then only 8 + 4x2TK in tfs)

exemple: TF59 AM SCOUT(Cdr Gebing G.) TK Tydewater(garett T.) + TK Frank G Drumm (Moore P.)

doesn't look like a cover-up of sized japanese hulls for me.


It's the computer who creates those TF from disbanded ships in Osaka. I suppose someone can use the save attached in the first post to check what I am talking about. Maybe it's a local problem?

The first time I realize this, I wanted to report but prefered to wait for a dozen turn to ensure it will happen every time and that's the case!






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Tigrizzli -- 12/15/2015 3:28:35 PM >

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 12
RE: TK or AO TF auto created by AI - 12/15/2015 3:10:38 PM   
Tigrizzli


Posts: 27
Joined: 3/12/2015
Status: offline 		Next turn, another couple of two Tanker TFs is created by the computer in Osaka: six tanker TF in port

I'll let it run dry of disbanded ships but it'll take a long time! ;) the increase in AO and one AM is from the arrival of a new TF assigned to disband there.





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Tigrizzli -- 12/15/2015 4:12:45 PM >

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Post #: 13
RE: TK or AO TF auto created by AI - 12/15/2015 3:43:34 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline 		Isn't Osaka the home port for the Japanese Auto-convoy system? Maybe related to this behavior?

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AE Mod "Bottlenecks" UPDATED 01/2022

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Post #: 14
RE: TK or AO TF auto created by AI - 12/15/2015 3:50:24 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		A long time ago, I think it was in WITP (not AE), there was a bug in Allied player vs Japanese AI games where if the Allied player captured Truk thereafter "strange things would happen" with the AI doing things with ships there. Fixed ages ago, but maybe only for Truk?

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Post #: 15
RE: TK or AO TF auto created by AI - 12/15/2015 5:03:39 PM   
Tigrizzli


Posts: 27
Joined: 3/12/2015
Status: offline 		Still happening, two more every turn, the last ones with AO as there is no more TK. And it used the just repaired AM in one of the TF.

For WITP, I think you're right, there was something similar happening sometime. But I can't remember where and what exactly.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 16
RE: TK or AO TF auto created by AI - 12/15/2015 5:08:49 PM   
Tigrizzli


Posts: 27
Joined: 3/12/2015
Status: offline 		And the corresponding zipped save (so just unzip this time).

Thanks too for the great job done here for so many years!

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Tigrizzli)
Post #: 17
RE: TK or AO TF auto created by AI - 12/15/2015 5:32:44 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		The obvious work-around for the time being is to stop using Osaka for Allied ships.

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Post #: 18
RE: TK or AO TF auto created by AI - 12/18/2015 9:19:40 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Isn't Osaka the home port for the Japanese Auto-convoy system? Maybe related to this behavior?


I'll bet it is related to this. Maybe the code doesn't distinguish between Japanese and Allied ownership of Osaka.

Edit: Removed "test requests" since Michael has found the bug.

< Message edited by Kull -- 12/19/2015 2:10:22 PM >

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(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
Post #: 19
RE: TK or AO TF auto created by AI - 12/18/2015 11:53:49 PM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		This is one of those unexpected outcomes. When grabbing resources, the AI expects Osaka to be Japanese controlled and builds a TF to go get resources. Yes, it did not check who controlled Osaka when doing this.

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Michael

(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 20
RE: TK or AO TF auto created by AI - 12/30/2015 7:05:11 PM   
bomccarthy


Posts: 414
Joined: 9/6/2013
From: L.A.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

This is one of those unexpected outcomes. When grabbing resources, the AI expects Osaka to be Japanese controlled and builds a TF to go get resources. Yes, it did not check who controlled Osaka when doing this.


Could this auto-convoy confusion issue at Osaka also suck most of the supply the Allies ship into Japan? I am playing Scen 6 (Dec 8 start) as Allies vs. Japanese AI and am in the end game (March 17, 1946). I control all of Kyushu (except Nagasaki) and western Honshu up through the line of Shimizu, Kofu, Maebashi, and Niigata. My Soviet forces have also hooked down to Iwaki and Utsunomiya (spelling?) and are besieging both.

I have been maintaining only 55k troops in Osaka since a couple of days after I captured it, along with decent fighter protection; my bombers are based elsewhere in Honshu. I don’t have any AKs or TKs disbanded in Osaka, and only a few minesweepers based there. I was shipping all supply into Kagoshima (Kyushu), but recently switched to Nagoya.

Yet supply in Osaka has been continually growing, from 71k in mid-Feb (soon after I captured it) to almost 1.6M currently – supplies required has never gone above 20k. Fuel in Osaka has also grown from 20k in Feb to 281k. I’ve kept stockpiling “Off” for supplies, fuel, and resources at all bases in Japan. My problem is that my frontline base at Kofu (425k troop level) has been in the red for three turns now, and they are bombarding 150k worth of Japanese LCUs. I initially thought the ongoing bombardment was the issue, but now Maebashi, with over 300k Soviet troop level but no Japanese opposition for the past two weeks, just went into the orange for supply. No other base in Japan has more than 150k of supply, and most have less than 70k, even with large air units based on them.

I am not familiar with auto-convoys (I prefer to control everything manually) – if the AI auto-convoy system thinks Osaka is still Japanese-controlled, will it continue to draw most of the supply I ship into Japan for potential auto-convoys, or will it reach a level where it decides it has enough supply? I hate to think that my Allied convoys from San Francisco and LA will be delivering millions of supply points to Nagoya in the coming weeks, only to have all or most of it stolen by Osaka’s Yakuza bosses.

(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 21
RE: TK or AO TF auto created by AI - 12/31/2015 5:05:53 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		I'll check, but when I looked at the code for the other issue, it had protection to skip AI supply functions when not controlled by AI.

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Michael

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Post #: 22
RE: TK or AO TF auto created by AI - 12/31/2015 5:06:52 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bomccarthy


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

This is one of those unexpected outcomes. When grabbing resources, the AI expects Osaka to be Japanese controlled and builds a TF to go get resources. Yes, it did not check who controlled Osaka when doing this.


Could this auto-convoy confusion issue at Osaka also suck most of the supply the Allies ship into Japan? I am playing Scen 6 (Dec 8 start) as Allies vs. Japanese AI and am in the end game (March 17, 1946). I control all of Kyushu (except Nagasaki) and western Honshu up through the line of Shimizu, Kofu, Maebashi, and Niigata. My Soviet forces have also hooked down to Iwaki and Utsunomiya (spelling?) and are besieging both.
...
I am not familiar with auto-convoys (I prefer to control everything manually) – if the AI auto-convoy system thinks Osaka is still Japanese-controlled, will it continue to draw most of the supply I ship into Japan for potential auto-convoys, or will it reach a level where it decides it has enough supply? I hate to think that my Allied convoys from San Francisco and LA will be delivering millions of supply points to Nagoya in the coming weeks, only to have all or most of it stolen by Osaka’s Yakuza bosses.


Can you attach a current save for me run debug on?

< Message edited by michaelm -- 12/31/2015 6:07:07 AM >

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Michael

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Post #: 23
RE: TK or AO TF auto created by AI - 12/31/2015 9:17:49 PM   
bomccarthy


Posts: 414
Joined: 9/6/2013
From: L.A.
Status: offline 		Ack -- I can't get the save game file compressed smaller than 5.02 Mb with Winzip. Any suggestions for another way to compress the file?

(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 24
RE: TK or AO TF auto created by AI - 12/31/2015 9:19:16 PM   
BillBrown


Posts: 2335
Joined: 6/15/2002
Status: offline 		Yo might try downloading and using 7zip. I think it might do a better job.

(in reply to bomccarthy)
Post #: 25
RE: TK or AO TF auto created by AI - 1/1/2016 8:59:08 PM   
bomccarthy


Posts: 414
Joined: 9/6/2013
From: L.A.
Status: offline 		Just downloaded and tried 7zip -- still can't get the file down to 5 Mb (either as a zip or .7z file).

Given the overall situation (Home Islands campaign in 1946), this isn't a huge deal from a game standpoint, since relatively few players will keep playing this long. And I would hate to have Michael spend time on this when there may be more pressing issues he could look at. I've played a couple of more turns and Osaka's supply seems to have stabilized at around 1.5M.

(in reply to BillBrown)
Post #: 26
RE: TK or AO TF auto created by AI - 1/1/2016 10:52:10 PM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		I think I have worked out this problem. There is special code for AI to move supply/fuel/resource/oil between major bases in Japan. It checks the ownership of the bases involved but assumes if first receiver is Japan-controlled, the rest of the block must be.
I have split this out so it checks each receiver before moving the materials.
---
The materials in Osaka are most likely being siphoned off some of the AI controlled bases [TOKYO, KOBE, KURE]

< Message edited by michaelm -- 1/2/2016 12:02:10 AM >

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Michael

(in reply to bomccarthy)
Post #: 27
RE: TK or AO TF auto created by AI - 1/3/2016 2:26:30 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		Updated beta

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Michael

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Post #: 28
RE: TK or AO TF auto created by AI - 1/3/2016 4:49:51 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		Fantastic response to the community MichaelM! Every company should have such employees.

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 29
RE: TK or AO TF auto created by AI - 1/3/2016 1:36:42 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Fantastic response to the community MichaelM! Every company should have such employees.

He's a volunteer.

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Post #: 30
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