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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

 
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 12/17/2015 2:48:42 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		Were those guys already smokin' from accumulated sys damage or something? Or did Columbia do that?

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(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3721
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 12/17/2015 2:49:31 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Several Allied combat TFs tangled with the KB. Results weren't spectacular, and the Allied ships would later pay for their boldness, but perhaps it had a minor impact. Pertinent excerpts from the combat report:

Day Time Surface Combat, near Little Andaman at 39,58, Range 10,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CV Akagi
CV Kaga
CV Hiyo
CVL Ryuho, Shell hits 1
CA Hikari
CL Noshiro
CL Sakawa
DD Niizuki
DD Wakazuki
DD Shimozuki
DD Fuyuzuki
DD Shigure
DD Yudachi
DD Shikinami

Allied Ships
DMS Hovey, Shell hits 2, on fire

Reduced visibility due to Rain
Maximum visibility in Rain: 15,000 yards
Range closes to 20,000 yards...
Range closes to 15,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 15,000 yards
Range closes to 10,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 10,000 yards
Range closes to 5,000 yards
DMS Hovey engages CVL Ryuho at 5,000 yards
DMS Hovey engages CVL Ryuho at 5,000 yards
Range increases to 7,000 yards
DMS Hovey engages CVL Ryuho at 7,000 yards
Range increases to 9,000 yards
CV Hiyo , CV Kaga screened from combat
- escorted by DD Niizuki
DMS Hovey engages CVL Ryuho at 9,000 yards
DD Wakazuki engages DMS Hovey at 9,000 yards
Range increases to 14,000 yards
CV Hiyo screened from combat
- escorted by DD Shikinami
DD Yudachi engages DMS Hovey at 14,000 yards
DD Wakazuki engages DMS Hovey at 14,000 yards
Range increases to 19,000 yards
CV Hiyo , CV Kaga , CV Akagi ,
CVL Ryuho screened from combat
- escorted by CL Noshiro , DD Yudachi , DD Fuyuzuki
CA Hikari engages DMS Hovey at 19,000 yards
DD Shigure engages DMS Hovey at 19,000 yards
Range increases to 23,000 yards
CV Hiyo screened from combat
- escorted by DD Shimozuki
CA Hikari engages DMS Hovey at 23,000 yards
CA Hikari engages DMS Hovey at 23,000 yards
Range increases to 25,000 yards
CV Hiyo , CV Kaga , CV Akagi ,
CVL Ryuho screened from combat
- escorted by CL Sakawa , DD Shimozuki , DD Wakazuki
CA Hikari engages DMS Hovey at 25,000 yards
Task forces break off...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Little Andaman at 39,58, Range 15,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CVL Ryujo
CVL Shoho
CVL Zuiho, Shell hits 3
CVL Nisshin
CA Iwaki, Shell hits 1
CL Agano, Shell hits 2
DD Akizuki
DD Teruzuki, Shell hits 1
DD Susuzuki
DD Hatsuzuki, Shell hits 1
DD Yoizuki
DD Tamanami
DD Ariake

Allied Ships
CA Frobisher, Shell hits 8, on fire
CL Sumatra, Shell hits 1
CLAA Van Heemskerck, Shell hits 4
DD Balch, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Low visibility due to Rain
Maximum visibility in Rain: 15,000 yards
Range closes to 27,000 yards...
Range closes to 25,000 yards...
Range closes to 23,000 yards...
Range closes to 21,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 21,000 yards
Range closes to 19,000 yards...
Range closes to 17,000 yards...
Range closes to 15,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 15,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 15,000 yards
CA Frobisher engages CVL Nisshin at 15,000 yards
CA Iwaki engages CL Sumatra at 15,000 yards
CA Iwaki engages CLAA Van Heemskerck at 15,000 yards
CA Iwaki engages CA Frobisher at 15,000 yards
CL Sumatra engages DD Ariake at 15,000 yards
CA Frobisher engages DD Teruzuki at 15,000 yards
CA Frobisher engages DD Akizuki at 15,000 yards
Range closes to 13,000 yards
CA Frobisher engages CVL Nisshin at 13,000 yards
CA Frobisher engages CVL Zuiho at 13,000 yards
CA Iwaki engages CLAA Van Heemskerck at 13,000 yards
DD Hatsuzuki engages CLAA Van Heemskerck at 13,000 yards
DD Akizuki engages CLAA Van Heemskerck at 13,000 yards
Range closes to 10,000 yards
CL Sumatra engages CVL Zuiho at 10,000 yards
DD Balch engages DD Hatsuzuki at 10,000 yards
CA Frobisher engages CL Agano at 10,000 yards
CLAA Van Heemskerck engages DD Tamanami at 10,000 yards
DD Balch engages DD Teruzuki at 10,000 yards
Range closes to 6,000 yards
CA Frobisher engages CVL Nisshin at 6,000 yards
CL Sumatra engages CVL Zuiho at 6,000 yards
DD Hatsuzuki engages DD Balch at 6,000 yards
CA Frobisher engages CA Iwaki at 6,000 yards
CA Frobisher engages CL Agano at 6,000 yards
DD Ariake engages DD Balch at 6,000 yards
DD Tamanami engages DD Balch at 6,000 yards
DD Yoizuki engages DD Balch at 6,000 yards
DD Hatsuzuki engages DD Balch at 6,000 yards
DD Akizuki engages DD Balch at 6,000 yards
Range increases to 7,000 yards
CL Sumatra engages CVL Zuiho at 7,000 yards
CLAA Van Heemskerck engages CL Agano at 7,000 yards
DD Hatsuzuki engages DD Balch at 7,000 yards
CL Agano engages CA Frobisher at 7,000 yards
DD Balch engages DD Tamanami at 7,000 yards
DD Teruzuki engages DD Balch at 7,000 yards
DD Akizuki engages DD Balch at 7,000 yards
Range increases to 9,000 yards
CA Frobisher engages CVL Nisshin at 9,000 yards
DD Balch engages CVL Zuiho at 9,000 yards
CA Iwaki engages CLAA Van Heemskerck at 9,000 yards
DD Balch engages DD Tamanami at 9,000 yards
DD Ariake engages DD Balch at 9,000 yards
DD Balch engages DD Yoizuki at 9,000 yards
DD Balch engages DD Hatsuzuki at 9,000 yards
DD Akizuki engages DD Balch at 9,000 yards
Range increases to 11,000 yards
CVL Nisshin screened from combat
- escorted by DD Hatsuzuki
CL Agano engages CA Frobisher at 11,000 yards
CL Agano engages CL Sumatra at 11,000 yards
CL Agano engages CLAA Van Heemskerck at 11,000 yards
CA Frobisher engages CA Iwaki at 11,000 yards
CA Frobisher engages CL Agano at 11,000 yards
DD Balch engages DD Ariake at 11,000 yards
DD Balch engages DD Yoizuki at 11,000 yards
DD Susuzuki engages DD Balch at 11,000 yards
DD Balch sunk by DD Teruzuki at 11,000 yards
Range increases to 18,000 yards
CVL Nisshin , CVL Zuiho , CVL Shoho screened from combat
- escorted by DD Ariake , DD Yoizuki
CA Iwaki engages CA Frobisher at 18,000 yards
CA Frobisher engages CA Iwaki at 18,000 yards
CL Agano engages CLAA Van Heemskerck at 18,000 yards
CL Sumatra engages DD Hatsuzuki at 18,000 yards
CA Frobisher engages DD Teruzuki at 18,000 yards
CA Frobisher engages DD Akizuki at 18,000 yards
Range increases to 24,000 yards
CA Iwaki engages CA Frobisher at 24,000 yards
CL Agano engages CL Sumatra at 24,000 yards
CL Agano engages CLAA Van Heemskerck at 24,000 yards
CA Iwaki engages CA Frobisher at 24,000 yards
Task forces break off...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Little Andaman at 38,56, Range 14,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CV Akagi, Shell hits 2
CV Kaga, Shell hits 6
CV Hiyo, Shell hits 5
CVL Ryuho
CA Hikari, Shell hits 2, on fire
CL Noshiro
CL Sakawa
DD Niizuki
DD Wakazuki
DD Shimozuki
DD Fuyuzuki
DD Shigure
DD Yudachi
DD Shikinami

Allied Ships
CL Columbia, Shell hits 4, on fire
DD Foxhound, Shell hits 2

Reduced visibility due to Rain
Maximum visibility in Rain: 15,000 yards
Range closes to 24,000 yards...
Range closes to 19,000 yards...
Range closes to 14,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 14,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 14,000 yards
CL Columbia engages CV Kaga at 14,000 yards
CL Columbia engages CV Akagi at 14,000 yards
CL Columbia engages CL Noshiro at 14,000 yards
Range closes to 9,000 yards
CL Columbia engages CV Hiyo at 9,000 yards
CL Columbia engages CV Akagi at 9,000 yards
Range closes to 7,000 yards
CL Columbia engages CV Hiyo at 7,000 yards
CL Columbia engages CV Kaga at 7,000 yards
CA Hikari engages CL Columbia at 7,000 yards
DD Shimozuki engages CL Columbia at 7,000 yards
CL Columbia engages DD Wakazuki at 7,000 yards
Range increases to 9,000 yards
CL Columbia engages CV Hiyo at 9,000 yards
DD Foxhound engages CVL Ryuho at 9,000 yards
Range increases to 12,000 yards
CL Columbia engages CV Kaga at 12,000 yards
DD Foxhound engages CV Kaga at 12,000 yards
DD Fuyuzuki engages DD Foxhound at 12,000 yards
DD Shimozuki engages DD Foxhound at 12,000 yards
DD Foxhound engages DD Niizuki at 12,000 yards
Range increases to 14,000 yards
CL Columbia engages CV Hiyo at 14,000 yards
DD Foxhound engages CV Kaga at 14,000 yards
CL Columbia engages CV Akagi at 14,000 yards
Range increases to 16,000 yards
CV Hiyo , CV Kaga , CV Akagi ,
CVL Ryuho screened from combat
- escorted by DD Shikinami , DD Fuyuzuki , DD Niizuki
CA Hikari engages CL Columbia at 16,000 yards
DD Shimozuki engages DD Foxhound at 16,000 yards
CL Columbia engages CL Noshiro at 16,000 yards
DD Shimozuki engages DD Foxhound at 16,000 yards
DD Foxhound engages DD Wakazuki at 16,000 yards
Range increases to 19,000 yards
CV Hiyo screened from combat
- escorted by DD Shigure
DD Wakazuki engages DD Foxhound at 19,000 yards
CL Sakawa engages CL Columbia at 19,000 yards
CL Columbia engages CL Noshiro at 19,000 yards
Range increases to 21,000 yards
CV Hiyo , CV Kaga , CV Akagi screened from combat
- escorted by DD Yudachi , DD Shimozuki
CL Columbia engages CVL Ryuho at 21,000 yards
DD Wakazuki engages DD Foxhound at 21,000 yards
DD Shikinami engages DD Foxhound at 21,000 yards
DD Shigure engages DD Foxhound at 21,000 yards
CL Columbia engages DD Wakazuki at 21,000 yards
Range increases to 22,000 yards
CV Hiyo , CV Kaga screened from combat
- escorted by DD Niizuki
CL Columbia engages CV Kaga at 22,000 yards
Range increases to 25,000 yards
CV Hiyo , CV Kaga screened from combat
- escorted by DD Shigure
CL Columbia engages CV Akagi at 25,000 yards
CL Columbia engages CA Hikari at 25,000 yards
CL Columbia engages DD Shimozuki at 25,000 yards
Range increases to 29,000 yards
CL Columbia engages CA Hikari at 29,000 yards
Task forces break off...

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3722
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 12/17/2015 2:50:05 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Were those guys already smokin' from accumulated sys damage or something? Or did Columbia do that?


The IJN carriers were nice and clean until contact with the intrepid Allied combat TFs.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 3723
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 12/17/2015 2:57:22 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		You can see that many IJN carriers took hits. I had hoped the frays would bleed ops points so that carrier sorties would be limited. But that didn't seem to be the case. Many sorites flew, plastering some of these combat ships (Frobisher, Columbia and Heemskerk are toast, if memory serves). KB also hit many of the naked merchants.

To this point, though, the most important Allied ships are still unmolested. CVEs Copahee and Long Island are well to the east (they'll either move to rendezvous with the fleet carriers - if I elect to offer battle - or they'll flee towards Diamond Harbor); BB Washington TF rendezvoued with my fleet carriers (Wow, that's nice!); and BBs Maryland and West Virginia are fairly close to KB (they'll rendezvous with the fleet carriers if I offer battle or they'll flee towards Diamond Harbor if not).

Question: Do I offer battle? Do I move my fleet carriers due south to a point SE of Ceylon (out of range of enemy air, but in range of KB if John presses his attack and moves KB a bit north)???

Factors: (a) are the Japanese carriers somewhat mussed up? (b) note absence of IJN BBs in the carrier TFs - woefully underscreened carriers. (c) IJN sorites are a bit lower, but probably not a factor. (d) Allies are much closer to safe port - Colombo; and (d) damaged IJN carriers would be hung out in Indian country with lots of subs out there.

What would you do?

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3724
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 12/17/2015 3:13:52 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		The crazy layout.

I'm leaning towards offering battle, moving my CVs to a point four hexes of so SE of Ceylon.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3725
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 12/17/2015 3:20:17 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I don't think John picked up my carriers this turn. I do think he got them last turn for the first time since we resumed the game.

What will he do? Did the surface combat worry him? Does the intel I picked up about his lack of BB screen ships worry him? Or is this John Cochran the Bold? Does he move north in pursuit of battle? Or does he choose a middle course, moving a bit SW while waiting to see what I do?

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3726
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 12/17/2015 3:31:28 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		January 6, 1943

The naval battles and air strikes of the sixth have dominated my posts thus far, but elsewhere:

Sabang: Lots of Tojos came in and pretty much trashed the remaining Allied CAP, which was reduced by the removal of the carrier F4Fs. I don't think the Army Air Forces can hold another turn. Therefore, the Allies are evacuating most of the remaining shipping from Sabang. Tonight, all fast-moving ships, especially combat shps, will steam due west, most at flank speed. This group will include two fast BBs and BB Revenge. I think they should make it given the current position of the KB. I'll keep most of the lower value ships in port one more turn (that way, if KB retires, they won't be right in the path of KB but can instead head straight for Ceylon the next turn; or, if KB remains in Bay of Bengal to give battle, they can flee west that next turn). I have a bunch of ships like AE, AKE, AD, etc. that are certainly in harm's way).

Sumatra: John has at least seven divisions blocked in jungle terrain by stiff Allied opposition. He can't win this war on the ground until he controls the air and the sea. That's about to happen, darn it.

Burma: Allies troops are currently repositioning to move on Magwe. Originally the movement was more towards Prome and Rangoon, but John has stymied me effectively.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3727
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 12/17/2015 4:06:18 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Did the KB use A6M5s or 2s? And how many CVs did he have?

Considering your situation I think you did as well as you could possibly have. Nice job!

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3728
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 12/17/2015 4:15:56 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		He used A6M5s (see excerpts from combat report pasted below)

I think the full KB is present, but the combat clashes showed Akagi, Kaga and Hiyo in the northern (main) carrier grouping. The southern, light carrier grouping including Ryuho, Shoho, Zuiho, Nisshin.

CV Junyo is listed as sunk. I don't recall if it's sunk or heavily damaged, but I think it is out of this battle.


Morning Air attack on TF, near Little Andaman at 37,57

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 44 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 16 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 40
D3A1 Val x 20

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A1 Val: 2 damaged
D3A1 Val: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied Ships
CL Sumatra
CLAA Van Heemskerck, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Little Andaman at 40,56

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 10 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 42
D3A1 Val x 23

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A1 Val: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
xAK Charon, Bomb hits 6, and is sunk
xAK Laida, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Sirsa, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Sawokla, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
10 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
7 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAK Laida
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAK Charon


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Little Andaman at 41,59

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 18 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 25
B5N1 Kate x 9

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
xAK Daisy Moller, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
xAK Esperance, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
xAK Moonta, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x B5N1 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 3729
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 12/17/2015 4:29:37 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Email Intel from John: "You got that right.... I about cried—I mean in a MANLY WAY—when weather shutdown my flightdeck with the beginning of your bugout. Saw that LOVELY new fast US BB all by its lonesome..."

Please don't tip off John not to provide info (even if incidental or unintentional) in emails. :)

This tells me two things: (1) John has interpreted this as the bug-out from Sabang, which is accurate; (2) his blood lust is up.

Does he think I won't commit my carriers? He probably isn't sure. Perhaps he'd welcome it. Can I afford not to give battle this close to friendly territory and so distant (for John) from his own friendly territory?

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3730
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 12/17/2015 4:31:33 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Two other important questions: (1) what are the chances that I'd come out short and lose the battle? (2) can I afford the loss?

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3731
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 12/17/2015 4:45:06 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I'm going to stand down my fighters at Sabang tomorrow. All of them. Most of the shipping will be gone, so it's not a huge risk. With the departure of the combat ships, the port will be protected from attack by sea by a few PT boats plus about 950 mines.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3732
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 12/17/2015 5:40:12 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		He is using Vals... How many torpedoes did he expend so far? He'll have enough sorties but if he is out or low on torps on even a couple of carriers that is a big advantage for any PM phase or second day battle...

Your killers are divebombers, his, for now, are kates....

In addition, he might lose a couple of flights to random targets, especially if his search his lacking...

< Message edited by Cannonfodder -- 12/17/2015 6:41:12 PM >

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
Ż Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3733
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 12/17/2015 5:52:42 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I still have a number of combat ships down around KB, including CLs Columbia (it wasn't sunk - it has 20 SYS damage) and Sumatra. I might also detach the smaller escorts that accompanied Maryland and West Virginia out of Sabang.

My gut tells me to offer battle.

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 3734
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 12/17/2015 6:02:40 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		So Japanese strength is probably the following CVs:
Akagi, Kaga, Shokakus, Soryu, Hiryu, and Hiyo

So 7 fleet CVs + MKB. With fighters that outperform yours... I don´t think the odds for a favorable outcome for you is that great!

On a more serious note though. Don´t do it. A defeat here would doom your troops on Sumatra and probably set you back for 18-24 months. Some troops would never recover like the British IDs (if you have any there). I know we readers doesn´t have the full picture but what are you looking to gain by forcing a CV battle? By the looks of it you got almost everything out?

Besides, you gave me some advice in my AAR which applies to this situation...I think you know which one I´m talking about.



(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 3735
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 12/17/2015 6:07:46 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		PS. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3625047&mpage=48&key=

The topmost post is a CV vs CV battle where the allies have been reinforced by the British and the Japanese have the KB (no MKB) with upgraded fighters.

A scary read for any AFB...

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 3736
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 12/17/2015 6:11:56 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		There's something to be gained. Sumatra is currently toast - its doomed as things stand. But a victory at sea would give the Allies some ability to defend.

Fortunately, all of the important ground troops committed to Sabang are American. I believe there's three divisions (1st Marine, 27th and 32nd USA). There's also several regiments. The loss of these will be a blow, but probably not critical.

I agree that as things now stand the Allies are probably able to extricate all shipping of real value (meaning the fast BBs, the slow BBs, and even - against all odds - those CVEs).

But dang - an opportunity to give battle so close to home and so remote for John. Very tempting.

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 3737
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 12/17/2015 6:17:14 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

PS. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3625047&mpage=48&key=

The topmost post is a CV vs CV battle where the allies have been reinforced by the British and the Japanese have the KB (no MKB) with upgraded fighters.

A scary read for any AFB...


Thanks for posting this, Joc. Reading this kind of thing can often be the wake up call to reality that a player needs.....

....but....

Was your combat really that lopsided? Note that your strike forces targeted battleships. Bear in mind that John apparently doesn't have BBs. And almost any hit will leave John's carriers hung out in bad Indian territory.

I haven't made up my mind yet. Have I overlooked anything else? Am I badly misreading things? Have I been gone so long that I don't know what I'm doing?

(P.S. I've long been hyper protective of my carriers, so I'm not typically rash. It's been three games or so since I last lost an American fleet carriers. Seiously.)

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 3738
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 12/17/2015 6:32:24 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Dan, could you post a screenshot of your carrier TF composition and air groups including experience?

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
Ż Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3739
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 12/17/2015 6:36:37 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		CFodder, I'm not sure how to do that without doing 75 photos. I'll see what I can come up with that might be of help.

I think at present the USN carriers are divided into three TFs of two each. Hermes and Illustrious are in a single TF. I have the two American CVEs far to the east, but they might join the fray.

The American pilots (especially fighter pilots) are highly trained - very good numbers on experience. I do have some fatigue. I have supplemented carrier fighters with some other fighter squadrons including one with 47 fighters (I diverted a coulpe of Avenger squadrons to Ceylon to provide room).

I'll give more numbers shortly.

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 3740
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 12/17/2015 6:38:08 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		John's carriers also took an unknown amount of system and other damage in the recent fracas. That's a factor of unknown magnitude.

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Post #: 3741
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 12/17/2015 6:38:54 PM   
witpqs


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Status: offline 		How about British and Dutch subs available to hunt carriers in that area?

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 12/17/2015 6:46:00 PM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

There's something to be gained. Sumatra is currently toast - its doomed as things stand. But a victory at sea would give the Allies some ability to defend.

Fortunately, all of the important ground troops committed to Sabang are American. I believe there's three divisions (1st Marine, 27th and 32nd USA). There's also several regiments. The loss of these will be a blow, but probably not critical.

I agree that as things now stand the Allies are probably able to extricate all shipping of real value (meaning the fast BBs, the slow BBs, and even - against all odds - those CVEs).

But dang - an opportunity to give battle so close to home and so remote for John. Very tempting.



How does your USMC and USA squad pools look? Well stocked? Then you can probably recover the troops in 3 months. Do you really think Sumatra is doomed without a decisive Allied naval victory? That is a scary thought. I got the impression you were doing quite well on the ground?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Thanks for posting this, Joc. Reading this kind of thing can often be the wake up call to reality that a player needs.....

....but....

Was your combat really that lopsided? Note that your strike forces targeted battleships. Bear in mind that John apparently doesn't have BBs. And almost any hit will leave John's carriers hung out in bad Indian territory.

I haven't made up my mind yet. Have I overlooked anything else? Am I badly misreading things? Have I been gone so long that I don't know what I'm doing?

(P.S. I've long been hyper protective of my carriers, so I'm not typically rash. It's been three games or so since I last lost an American fleet carriers. Seiously.)


It really was that lopsided. I was absolutely crushed. Granted this was against Mr.Kane (Tom) who is probable on of the best AE players out there so his setting was probably 100% while mine...probably wasn´t!

Weather also played a big part in the battle as his CVs where shrouded by heavy clouds. Bad weather, a couple of bad rolls of the dice and the entire USN + all the Amphibs go down together with around 5-6000 VPs. Just like that. But look at the size of his Alpha strike...no weather in the world could have saved me. And that was without the MKB!

I know whatever you decide will be the best choice given your situation. Don´t want to sound like an alarmist but be very careful!

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Post #: 3743
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 12/17/2015 6:48:04 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Hi Joc, you were a bit light on fighters, what happened there? USN carriers bring 36 at least... I'll admit there is a certain randomness involved. In my game vs Quixote (after I threw in the towel) we ran a simulation where we replayed a turn of June 1942.

In the game Quixote turned back with KB but this time we met in battle twice.. First run was a decisive Japanese victory, the second run it was allied...

< Message edited by Cannonfodder -- 12/17/2015 7:51:24 PM >

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Post #: 3744
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 12/17/2015 6:52:44 PM   
Canoerebel


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Status: offline 		Information about carriers and strike aircraft:

A. Japan - three TFs showing a mouseover total of 317 fighters, 340 strike aircraft, and 15 auxilliary (two turns ago, John loss 20+ Jakes to CAP over Sabang, so he may be a bit short in that regard).

B. Allies - four carrier TFs totalling 237 F4Fs, 9 Martlets, 211 SBDs, and 60 Avengers. I'll probably reconfigure this a bit to nudge SBDs up and Avengers down. Also, Copahee might join the fray with another 20 F4Fs.

The three USN carrier TFs are comprised of support: CA, CL, CLAA and five DD each. In addition, BB Washington and two DDs have rendezvoued, so one CV TF will get Washington and I'll dole out the destroyers.

Allied subs aren't out there - they're all in the straits leading to Singers or guarding the Sunda Straits. So damaged enemy ships will have to run the gauntlet (or seek refuge at Rangoon, Port Blair or Victoria Point, which would be crazy).

The Allies are winning the ground war on Sumatra, Joc, but that won't last once I can't protect Sabang from attacks by air and sea.

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Post #: 3745
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 12/17/2015 6:57:32 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
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Status: offline 		How much supply have you got on Sumatra?

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 12/17/2015 6:59:58 PM   
Canoerebel


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Status: offline 		Tons of supply - nearly 300k.

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Post #: 3747
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 12/17/2015 7:02:31 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		You'll be a bit outnumbered, probably even number fighters. If you set heavy CAP (at least 60%) you should be able to punch through the escort...

About 100 of your fighters will escort, if your strike is coordinated. F4Fs take a punch so the zeroes will be fairly distracted...

If you do battle, it will be up to the dice gods... If you don't now he'll either chase even further into your territory and you might be able to battle covered by LBA... or retreat...

< Message edited by Cannonfodder -- 12/17/2015 8:03:47 PM >

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"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
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Post #: 3748
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 12/17/2015 7:08:24 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		If I do this, should I err on the side of offense? IE, setting a lower than normal CAP? The goal is to damage enemy carriers more than to protect friendly ones. Is that the right objective? If so, what would you set CAP at?

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Post #: 3749
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 12/17/2015 7:20:18 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		My reasoning is that you should launch sufficient fighters as escort to ensure you penetrate the CAP. As a rule of thumb it should be close to the number of CAP the enemy has up.. I don't know John that well.. Does he usually put up a lot of CAP or does he commit more to the escort?

If you have a lot of fighters on escort, some of those fighters will not contribute in the 15 minute running fight (assuming no radar on the IJN side) towards the carriers before the bombers start to dive down....

On the other hand, you have radar assisted interception and a lot of fighters on CAP will contribute towards shooting down or disrupting the strike force...

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AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
Ż Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

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Post #: 3750
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