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RE: Women In the Infantry - 12/25/2015 1:50:09 AM

Titanwarrior89

Posts: 3283
Joined: 8/28/2003
From: arkansas
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Again, someone who does not know what their talking about. There's nothing wrong with these men. If you think for minute, every Soldier, sailor, Marine or Air Man went to War believing it was only a rich man's war. Again Sir!! what Division did you serve in...as Infantry Man. Please post it here. Other wise, Your just another PC warrior, who doesn't have a clue.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Revthought

I am really reluctant to post here; however, I cannot stop myself. There is something really wrong with many of you. Who cares if women can serve in combat roles? Women have been serving in that capacity since the beginning of time. In modernity we saw it in the Soviet Union during the Second World War, where women served with the Soviet armed forces with distinction. There were no problems with discipline, and Soviet society did not collapse. In fact, the Soviets actually won that war, remember?

Furthermore, women have been in combat roles for years in the armies of many nations. I don't hear anyone saying anything about women seriously degrading the IDF.

Finally I don't want to live n your world where there is some assumed natural distinction between genders. I don't care if my 18 year daughter has to face selective service. In fact, I feel the same way about it as my son. I don't want to lose either of them in a rich mans war.

What I do want is a world in which my daughter is acknowledged as a human being, who isn't limited by her gender. One in which people rightly assume that she can do, and should be allowed to do, anything she puts her mind to.

A lot of you are living in a twisted version of the past, the memory of which we cannot hurry out of living memory fast enough.

< Message edited by Titanwarrior89 -- 12/25/2015 2:50:59 AM >

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"Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".

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(in reply to Revthought)

Post #: 391

RE: Women In the Infantry - 12/25/2015 2:04:43 AM

jwarrenw13

Posts: 1897
Joined: 8/12/2000
From: Louisiana, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Revthought

I am really reluctant to post here; however, I cannot stop myself. There is something really wrong with many of you. Who cares if women can serve in combat roles? Women have been serving in that capacity since the beginning of time. In modernity we saw it in the Soviet Union during the Second World War, where women served with the Soviet armed forces with distinction. There were no problems with discipline, and Soviet society did not collapse. In fact, the Soviets actually won that war, remember?

Furthermore, women have been in combat roles for years in the armies of many nations. I don't hear anyone saying anything about women seriously degrading the IDF.

Finally I don't want to live n your world where there is some assumed natural distinction between genders. I don't care if my 18 year daughter has to face selective service. In fact, I feel the same way about it as my son. I don't want to lose either of them in a rich mans war.

What I do want is a world in which my daughter is acknowledged as a human being, who isn't limited by her gender. One in which people rightly assume that she can do, and should be allowed to do, anything she puts her mind to.

A lot of you are living in a twisted version of the past, the memory of which we cannot hurry out of living memory fast enough.

Your insults to anyone with a differing view are inappropriate for this forum. Likewise, your belief that there is no "natural distinction between the genders" is mistaken. Surely you realize that.

(in reply to Revthought)

Post #: 392

RE: Women In the Infantry - 12/25/2015 2:12:31 AM

charlie0311

Posts: 941
Joined: 12/20/2013
Status: offline

Another fool, "revthought".

You pc guys who keep repeating, like robots, that "women have always been there", in combat that is.

Check the KIA stats, ooops, uh duh!!!

(in reply to jwarrenw13)

Post #: 393

RE: Women In the Infantry - 12/25/2015 4:55:08 AM

Kuokkanen

Posts: 3545
Joined: 4/2/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Revthought

Furthermore, women have been in combat roles for years in the armies of many nations. I don't hear anyone saying anything about women seriously degrading the IDF.

How many women in IDF are in combat infantry? I remember reading from somewhere only 3%. I presume that 3% can carry their own backpack and throw hand grenade far enough. If I remember it right and article in question is accurate and true, then 97% of IDF women are outside of the combat infantry doing something else. Like in logistics (from cooking to medics to truck drivers) and crewing combat vehicles. Not infantry.

Stated problem with USA Army is that there are now women in combat infantry who cannot throw hand grenade far enough and carry their own backpack. They leave it to the men to carry their gear and throw the grenades. Women in the combat aircraft and vehicle crews aren't the problem. Women in the combat infantry are the problem. Maybe not all of them, but too many are. In short, combat infantry needs bitches, but someone decided put sluts in there too

[edit]
Manuscript for linked web manga was written by former marine from Okinawa, and she was likely told the same things what appear in the manga. See her comments at bottom of the web page.

< Message edited by Matti Kuokkanen -- 12/25/2015 5:57:16 AM >

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(in reply to Revthought)

Post #: 394

RE: Women In the Infantry - 12/25/2015 5:31:26 AM

Jagdtiger14

Posts: 1686
Joined: 1/22/2008
From: Miami Beach
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About revthought...its hard to imagine someone really thinks this way. I think he feels the Bern for 2016

The current FLOTUS once said: "we need to change our history". At first glance this seems a ridiculous statement...now read revthoughts last sentence.

I am amazed by some (many) political activists that call themselves "anarchists", but favor a strong central government providing benefits and dispensing "social justice". A few months ago during a business transaction, I was complimented by a hipster looking college kid who stated "I'm so glad your not trying to control me bro..."...when I delved deeper into his thought process concerning control it turned out he was happy to use the state to control others. I pointed out the obvious to him. I think I changed his life that day.

< Message edited by Jagdtiger14 -- 12/25/2015 6:32:44 AM >

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Post #: 395

RE: Women In the Infantry - 12/25/2015 3:03:03 PM

MrRoadrunner

Posts: 1323
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Revthought
<snip> not accurate

Finally I don't want to live n your world where there is some assumed natural distinction between genders. I don't care if my 18 year daughter has to face selective service. In fact, I feel the same way about it as my son. I don't want to lose either of them in a rich mans war.

What I do want is a world in which my daughter is acknowledged as a human being, who isn't limited by her gender. One in which people rightly assume that she can do, and should be allowed to do, anything she puts her mind to.

A lot of you are living in a twisted version of the past, the memory of which we cannot hurry out of living memory fast enough.

One at a time, taking into consideration women in the military.
Sorry to burst your bubble but their is a distinction between the "genders". Other wise we would not have the word gender?
Do we have selective service? I think it is a volunteer military, right?
"Rich man's war"? You have not stepped out of the sixties? This canard has been bandied about for years. Proven false each time it is brought up, but remains the mantra of the criminally stupid.
And, I do not want my son dying because some idiot thinks his daughter has the right to "fight" (when she obviously cannot do so on the same level as the man).

If your daughter foolishly believes that she is capable enough to be an infantry fighter she should pass the same test as men do. Then she can perform the tasks of infantry fighter without endangering her fellow soldiers?
If she really put her mind to it, and not just followed her father's muddled thinking, she might find out that she is simply not capable of performing the same tasks?

On your last thought. I believe you are not going to get your wish. As long as historians can report historical fact we should all be safe from those who wish to eliminate and re-write history. And, as long as I live I will stand up and shout out the truth, to pass it along to following generations that will help shine the light on that truth.

Sheesh. I guess it is true that hippies did assimilate and hide within the depths of society?

RR

_____________________________

�The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.�
― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

(in reply to Revthought)

Post #: 396

RE: Women In the Infantry - 12/25/2015 5:25:00 PM

Titanwarrior89

Posts: 3283
Joined: 8/28/2003
From: arkansas
Status: offline

Give that man a Cigar.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner

quote:

ORIGINAL: Revthought
<snip> not accurate

Finally I don't want to live n your world where there is some assumed natural distinction between genders. I don't care if my 18 year daughter has to face selective service. In fact, I feel the same way about it as my son. I don't want to lose either of them in a rich mans war.

What I do want is a world in which my daughter is acknowledged as a human being, who isn't limited by her gender. One in which people rightly assume that she can do, and should be allowed to do, anything she puts her mind to.

A lot of you are living in a twisted version of the past, the memory of which we cannot hurry out of living memory fast enough.

One at a time, taking into consideration women in the military.
Sorry to burst your bubble but their is a distinction between the "genders". Other wise we would not have the word gender?
Do we have selective service? I think it is a volunteer military, right?
"Rich man's war"? You have not stepped out of the sixties? This canard has been bandied about for years. Proven false each time it is brought up, but remains the mantra of the criminally stupid.
And, I do not want my son dying because some idiot thinks his daughter has the right to "fight" (when she obviously cannot do so on the same level as the man).

If your daughter foolishly believes that she is capable enough to be an infantry fighter she should pass the same test as men do. Then she can perform the tasks of infantry fighter without endangering her fellow soldiers?
If she really put her mind to it, and not just followed her father's muddled thinking, she might find out that she is simply not capable of performing the same tasks?

On your last thought. I believe you are not going to get your wish. As long as historians can report historical fact we should all be safe from those who wish to eliminate and re-write history. And, as long as I live I will stand up and shout out the truth, to pass it along to following generations that will help shine the light on that truth.

Sheesh. I guess it is true that hippies did assimilate and hide within the depths of society?

RR

_____________________________

"Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".

"Mama, There's Rabbits in the Garden"

(in reply to MrRoadrunner)

Post #: 397

RE: Women In the Infantry - 12/25/2015 8:27:38 PM

paradigmblue

Posts: 784
Joined: 9/16/2014
From: Fairbanks, Alaska
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Revthought

I am really reluctant to post here; however, I cannot stop myself. There is something really wrong with many of you. Who cares if women can serve in combat roles? Women have been serving in that capacity since the beginning of time. In modernity we saw it in the Soviet Union during the Second World War, where women served with the Soviet armed forces with distinction. There were no problems with discipline, and Soviet society did not collapse. In fact, the Soviets actually won that war, remember?

Furthermore, women have been in combat roles for years in the armies of many nations. I don't hear anyone saying anything about women seriously degrading the IDF.

Finally I don't want to live n your world where there is some assumed natural distinction between genders. I don't care if my 18 year daughter has to face selective service. In fact, I feel the same way about it as my son. I don't want to lose either of them in a rich mans war.

What I do want is a world in which my daughter is acknowledged as a human being, who isn't limited by her gender. One in which people rightly assume that she can do, and should be allowed to do, anything she puts her mind to.

A lot of you are living in a twisted version of the past, the memory of which we cannot hurry out of living memory fast enough.

Well said.

(in reply to Revthought)

Post #: 398

RE: Women In the Infantry - 12/25/2015 8:45:26 PM

waltero

Posts: 202
Joined: 1/24/2008
From: Alaska
Status: offline

Ya well, the Military is not what it use to be...Neither is war.

(in reply to paradigmblue)

Post #: 399

RE: Women In the Infantry - 12/25/2015 9:40:38 PM

charlie0311

Posts: 941
Joined: 12/20/2013
Status: offline

Ah, the "new" left, where fiction is knowledge.

Not that new, that word is for the new dopes, still fiction, keep repeating though, always plenty of new fools.

(in reply to waltero)

Post #: 400

RE: Women In the Infantry - 12/25/2015 10:31:54 PM

Revthought

Posts: 523
Joined: 1/14/2009
From: San Diego (Lives in Indianapolis)
Status: offline

I am an unashamed American Marxist. There is quit a long history of war being fought by the poor in the interests of the rich, I could post an analysis of the relationship between the interests of elites and their involvement in war over the last century, but I won't. Instead I will just point out this is an insight that predates Socrates and even appears in American history from Emerson to Major General Smedly Butler, and even from the mouth of Eisenhower.

So I am not merely mouthing "PC" bullcrap. In fact, you cannot get any less politically correct than being a card carrying Marxist in the United States. All of this is, of course, your attempt to marginalized my view point by dismissing it as "PC drivel." The fact remains the lives of none of my children are expendable to me--son or daughter.

It is also just a fact that you are wrong about both women, and their equal status in the eyes of history. Nor of course, are you capable of pointing out a single moment in history where the presence of women in the armed forces actually caused the collapse of anything, other than the friggen' Nazis. There are plenty of examples of the worlds elite armed forces where women actively serve in combat.

The real fact of the matter is that you are the wrong side of history. People will remember your opinion in future generations with the same deference we currently give to the arguments in favor of the racial segregation of the armed forces.

< Message edited by Revthought -- 12/25/2015 11:33:43 PM >

(in reply to gradenko2k)

Post #: 401

RE: Women In the Infantry - 12/25/2015 10:50:21 PM

charlie0311

Posts: 941
Joined: 12/20/2013
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Ok, sweety, where are all the women KIA in all these elite forces. C'mon, make something up, you can do it.

(in reply to Revthought)

Post #: 402

RE: Women In the Infantry - 12/25/2015 11:08:54 PM

Aurelian

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

Good grief..........

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Post #: 403

RE: Women In the Infantry - 12/25/2015 11:43:35 PM

gradenko2k

Posts: 935
Joined: 12/27/2010
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Pointing to the lack of women in combat as evidence of their unfeasibility of such an idea is more than just a little disingenuous if they're not being allowed to serve in such a capacity in the first place.

(in reply to Aurelian)

Post #: 404

RE: Women In the Infantry - 12/26/2015 12:54:59 AM

charlie0311

Posts: 941
Joined: 12/20/2013
Status: offline

ok garden,

Which is it, 1) they've always been there or 2) never been there since "not allowed".

Time for me to go, way too stupid and not amusing. But..

Aurelian, good grief to you, dear friend, how many maimed corpses? answer, no limit. That would be something to express grief over, good or otherwise.

(in reply to gradenko2k)

Post #: 405

RE: Women In the Infantry - 12/26/2015 1:04:35 AM

Aurelian

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

ok garden,

Which is it, 1) they've always been there or 2) never been there since "not allowed".

Time for me to go, way too stupid and not amusing. But..

Aurelian, good grief to you, dear friend, how many maimed corpses? answer, no limit. That would be something to express grief over, good or otherwise.

Charlie, you're right. Way too stupid and not amusing. You've helped get it there.

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

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Post #: 406

RE: Women In the Infantry - 12/26/2015 1:04:47 AM

MrRoadrunner

Posts: 1323
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Revthought

I am an unashamed American Marxist.<snip>

<snip> In fact, you cannot get any less politically correct than being a card carrying Marxist in the United States. All of this is, of course, your attempt to marginalized my view point by dismissing it as "PC drivel." The fact remains the lives of none of my children are expendable to me--son or daughter.

It is also just a fact that you are wrong about both women, and their equal status in the eyes of history. Nor of course, are you capable of pointing out a single moment in history where the presence of women in the armed forces actually caused the collapse of anything, other than the friggen' Nazis. There are plenty of examples of the worlds elite armed forces where women actively serve in combat.

The real fact of the matter is that you are the wrong side of history. People will remember your opinion in future generations with the same deference we currently give to the arguments in favor of the racial segregation of the armed forces.

I was going to snip most of your drivel and just address some.

Of course you are a poor oppressed Marxist. You did not have to as much admit it as you could keep spewing the garbage and it would have pointed you out.
And, sorry the US has been marching consistently down the socialist path since the first Progressive thought they could get away with injecting the poison into our society. To the point that real conservative American thought seems to be in the minority.

Since you wish to ignore history it was, and is, the progressives who desegregated the military. Up until the turn of the last century Blacks were assimilating in to all aspects of American culture and life. It was the foul, Progressive, Woodrow Wilson who desegregated the military and fomented the Jim Crow Laws upon our society. (The very laws the socialist Adolph Hitler used to oppress the Jews.)
And, not to diverge too much, Nazi ideology and Soviet ideology are merely two sides of the same socialist coin.

It is also the Progressives who laud Darwin and the theory of evolution's, "survival of the fittest". Which was often used to further degrade Blacks in American society.

Sadly, you will never be convinced that genders do exist. Nor, that there is a difference between men and women. Always have been since the beginning of history itself.
My point again, since Marxists in America do not listen the first time, is that women who pass the requirements of the infantry fighter without it being watered down due to gender (which is what you want, right?) can become infantry fighters.
Women who require lower standards to pass should be passed over.

Merry Christmas! And, to all a good night.

RR

_____________________________

�The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.�
― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

(in reply to Revthought)

Post #: 407

RE: Women In the Infantry - 12/26/2015 1:11:12 AM

gradenko2k

Posts: 935
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

ok garden,

Which is it, 1) they've always been there or 2) never been there since "not allowed".

Time for me to go, way too stupid and not amusing. But..

Aurelian, good grief to you, dear friend, how many maimed corpses? answer, no limit. That would be something to express grief over, good or otherwise.

As has been pointed out, women were able to capably serve in the Soviet Union's military, when they were allowed to, and we don't have any evidence to indicate that they caused a decline in the quality of their armed forces during the time in which women were allowed to serve.

If you then ask about where are all the women and/or the women's achievements in Western militaries, I would circle back to how a lack of the same is mostly because they're not allowed to serve in such capacities as a matter of policy.

(in reply to charlie0311)

Post #: 408

RE: Women In the Infantry - 12/26/2015 4:05:06 AM

Jagdtiger14

Posts: 1686
Joined: 1/22/2008
From: Miami Beach
Status: offline

"as has been pointed out, women were able to capably serve in the Soviet Union's military".

I don't think anyone is suggesting here that women can not serve in the US military...the question is to what extent. Further, this debate zeroed in on front line infantry and standards.

As for the Soviets...look at how women were utilized...it was not some great emancipation utopia. They were not infantry. If they were found on the front lines they were severely punished. They were AA gunners, second line defenders, snipers, partizans, tank drivers, machine gunners, as well as all of the behind the lines duties you would expect (medics, etc...).

I have a problem when standards are reduced for political reasons to pass certain people...whether that is women in the military, or students/teachers in our public school system.

< Message edited by Jagdtiger14 -- 12/26/2015 5:10:13 AM >

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Post #: 409

RE: Women In the Infantry - 12/26/2015 4:15:07 AM

Kuokkanen

Posts: 3545
Joined: 4/2/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

As has been pointed out, women were able to capably serve in the Soviet Union's military, when they were allowed to, and we don't have any evidence to indicate that they caused a decline in the quality of their armed forces during the time in which women were allowed to serve.

Soviet Union had some good military hardware at the time, some even better than Germany it fought against. However, quality of the soldiers and officers was greatly lacking. That was partly becouse of need to get as many soldiers to the field as soon as possible. Including women. Women didn't degrade Red Army at the time. Stalin's "purging" nation's officer corps, deemed disloyal or politically incorrect, did it. My father says it contributed to save the Finland in Winter War and later.

quote:

If you then ask about where are all the women and/or the women's achievements in Western militaries, I would circle back to how a lack of the same is mostly because they're not allowed to serve in such capacities as a matter of policy.

There is a reason for that. In case you have overlooked previous discussion in this thread, in USA Army (and in most other armies elsewhere) women have lower fitness standards than men do. In USA Army man is required to throw hand grenade 35 meters. Woman can pass it with 25 meters. There are other differences, like run certain distance within certain amount of time, and women are allowed more time to cover it than men are. I presume those standards (of the men) are more demanding than what Red Army had for anyone in the Second World War. For such reasons, women have been deemed unfit for combat duty in the infantry units. Recently there has been change to allow women, who do not pass physical standards of men, to serve in combat infantry units.

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Post #: 410

RE: Women In the Infantry - 12/26/2015 4:24:15 AM

gradenko2k

Posts: 935
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline

Then that's really an indictment of the plans around integrating women into the armed forces, rather than against the concept of women-in-combat as a whole.

(in reply to Jagdtiger14)

Post #: 411

RE: Women In the Infantry - 12/26/2015 4:35:32 AM

Jagdtiger14

Posts: 1686
Joined: 1/22/2008
From: Miami Beach
Status: offline

Yes, the plans to integrate women into the armed forces are F'ed. In my opinion and in theory women should be able to get in if they meet the universal male standard. However I personally have problems concerning sexuality and its distractions. I also would raise and lower the standards depending on the threat to the nation...ie...terrorism vs WWIII.

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Post #: 412

RE: Women In the Infantry - 12/26/2015 4:40:53 AM

waltero

Posts: 202
Joined: 1/24/2008
From: Alaska
Status: offline

Who Cares...Prepare to be assimilated!

100 years from now nobody will know the difference.
I think women are more than capable.

Having fifteen thousand creaming women (bare breasted)charging towered you would be a frightful sight...

< Message edited by waltero -- 12/26/2015 5:47:10 AM >

(in reply to gradenko2k)

Post #: 413

RE: Women In the Infantry - 12/26/2015 4:59:11 AM

Jagdtiger14

Posts: 1686
Joined: 1/22/2008
From: Miami Beach
Status: offline

I suggested a PMS brigade earlier but was given a warning

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Post #: 414

RE: Women In the Infantry - 12/26/2015 5:50:49 AM

rhondabrwn

Posts: 2570
Joined: 9/29/2004
From: Snowflake, Arizona
Status: offline

Time to shut this one down guys... please...

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Post #: 415

RE: Women In the Infantry - 12/26/2015 12:24:13 PM

MrRoadrunner

Posts: 1323
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

Time to shut this one down guys... please...

LOL! Just like saying "shut them up, I don't like what they are saying"? Except for when I am saying something I have the "right" to say it.

Then anyone can post on a thread and get it shut down? How about "let's keep to the topic? Even when the topic gets side tracked?"

Some will never understand. Others do it purposefully.

RR

_____________________________

�The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.�
― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

(in reply to rhondabrwn)

Post #: 416

RE: Women In the Infantry - 12/26/2015 12:41:58 PM

Yogi the Great

Posts: 1948
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

Time to shut this one down guys... please...

I agree with Rhonda

(in reply to rhondabrwn)

Post #: 417

RE: Women In the Infantry - 12/26/2015 12:43:32 PM

gradenko2k

Posts: 935
Joined: 12/27/2010
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If you want to make a post in favor of woman in the infantry, you're more than welcome to do so.

That still doesn't make either that or this topic allowed, per the "no politics" rules, and it's just as germane either way to point that out.

And considering the topic is all the way back from 2013, thread necromancy is also at play here.

(in reply to MrRoadrunner)

Post #: 418

RE: Women In the Infantry - 12/26/2015 2:21:35 PM

Yogi the Great

Posts: 1948
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

If you want to make a post in favor of woman in the infantry, you're more than welcome to do so.

That still doesn't make either that or this topic allowed, per the "no politics" rules, and it's just as germane either way to point that out.

And considering the topic is all the way back from 2013, thread necromancy is also at play here.

Never said I favored woman in the infantry, in fact I don't.

Never said the topic shouldn't be allowed, it's fine with me to have a reasonable, valid and proper discussion on the topic.

Why I agree with Rhonda is that some of the posts cross the line becoming insulting, sexual and beyond what falls into reasonable, valid and proper argument. That is what ruins the thread. It may become just one more locked thread because a few posters cross the line that takes away the ability of the others to have a thoughtful, reasonable, valid and perfectly proper discussion and difference of opinion for the rest.

(in reply to gradenko2k)

Post #: 419

RE: Women In the Infantry - 12/26/2015 3:40:18 PM

jwarrenw13

Posts: 1897
Joined: 8/12/2000
From: Louisiana, USA
Status: offline

What Rhonda said. I have commented in this thread, but it is crossing the line for this forum, and it has reached a point where lines are drawn and those taking part are not going to change their minds

(in reply to Yogi the Great)

Post #: 420