mannerheim4
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lancer
Hi,
From a German perspective the straightforward antidote to a Soviet thrust through the Marshes is to swing around and take Gomel. 2nd PG is pretty effective at isolating any big pockets of Soviets within.
Thanks for your comments.
Given the difficulties of advancing past Minsk for the Germans in this game, that is easier said than done. The 4th Army, which would be helpful in this move to advance on Gomel (a sound strategy on paper) is tied up in defending the southern flank of Army Group Central. At least half of the Army is needed - and even that is difficult, because the AI will infiltrate a Soviet unit or two. To isolate these infiltrators and keep supply open, the Germans have a difficult time, because many of the units protecting this flank are out of command and don't get the AP's to effectively manuever AND attack such isolated Soviets (that don't seem to have the same supply issues)
Given the rate of advances in this game, I'm thinking Gomel is not going to fall until at the very earliest August.
quote:
ORIGINAL: lancer
Moving the theatre border a bit further south isn't going to make much difference as the Germans pretty much need to stick to the one half decent route through the marshes otherwise they get hit with Soviet units gaining their full adverse terrain benefits (+40% defense). This is in line with German Operational doctrine - they avoided swamp terrain like the plague.
Probably true, since neither Army Groups can take out the Soviets alone in the marshes. One Army Group will merely push the Soviets in the opposite direction, but never entirely out. Until the Germans are able to cut off the Pripiat road (which can support quite a bit of supply! I'm guessing that the alligators there keep the Soviets well-fed)
quote:
ORIGINAL: lancer
The Pripyat marshes provide a lot of potential counter play situations for both sides and it's not something that I'd be in a rush to change. It also, as mentioned, keeps the Germans guessing, as they did in '41.
Historically Von Rundstedt (AGS) had fought through the marsh area during the 1916/17 campaign on the Eastern Front, and was well aware that operations could be carried out in these marshes by substantial infantry or cavalry formations. He was very concerned about his exposed northern flank and 6th Army was assigned to cover any thrust originating from here. He was quite surprised when no meaningful counter-attack occurred.
Here's a quote from my research notes.
(Uman Pocket or Uman 'Kessel'), 23rd July - 12 Aug
Potopov's 5th Army, separated from the bulk of Kirponos' forces, avoided decisive engagement and sniped at the Sixth Army from the relative safety of the marshes. German intelligence failures contributed to the Sixth Army's discomfort by inflating the enemy, never larger than twelve divisions, to nearly 20.
"sniping" and "avoiding decisive engagements" is not the strategy that the Soviet AI uses in the actual game, as we well know. These are not the words of a general worried about a MAJOR offensive with the potential to take Brest Litovsk, with division-level units blocking supply! Every map I have seen of this time frame does not show 6 plus German infantry divisions holding down the southern flank of AGC due to a major threat from the marshes...
There are decisions in this game that would appear, to me, to handle the "sniping" of units cut off. I forget the exact wording, but you are given a choice in each Army Group zone to continue mopping up for a week, a fortnight, or a month. Given the scale of the attacks coming from the marshes, I don't think one would need to "detach" half an Army to keep these "snipings" to a minimum. Given the need for German infantry to break through to Gomel, these Soviet Marsh attacks tie down too many units to defending this flank, much more than historically.
Historically, the Germans had a hard time even with the Western Army pocket and cut off Soviets. However, it is at a scale below the game's, so it is not recognized, and on the map, it appears that there are no Soviet units. As it should be. The decision handles this abstract nicely. Units are kept from entering the game and are doing mopping up work. Couldn't this be done for the marshes, as well? It would seem that the Soviet threat and keeping it in check should be more a decision, rather than a major defensive work that ties down half an Army and a unit or two from 6th Army.
On maps I've seen, you have a cavalry division and one or two divisions tying down that flank. The game mechanics will not allow this because of ZOC and the fact that you cannot break down units in this game to regiments to cover the flanks. So perhaps you could force a decision (from each side) to detail several divisions to do "sniping" or "anti-sniping" details.
Regards
< Message edited by mannerheim4 -- 12/30/2015 12:20:44 PM >
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Pripyat Marshes and supply - 
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), I had to commit the whole of 4th army, half of 6th army and some units of 2nd PG to deal with the "creatures from the swamp" (i.e., more than 15 soviet divisions and a HQ) on the mashes. Only in late august was I able to pocket them and destroy them in full, and Gomel was indeed the key. 
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