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Iowa class BB in CMANO - 12/30/2015 12:57:46 PM   
ziolo


Posts: 63
Joined: 3/27/2014
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline 		This is an excerpt from an AAR on the Log Bridge scenario:

"With the Wisconsin huge 406mm guns out of action, I pressed on to finish enemy ships(…I suppose including
Wisconsin as it is on NATO Losses list…) with the Sverdlov cruisers and powerful 130 mm guns from Slava
and Sovremenny."

What? Finishing Iowa class BB with 152 and 130mm guns?!?

Sorry but IMHO if light 152mm Sverdlov's shells and 130mm shells from Slava and co. (130mm = "powerfull" ?!?!?),
if they can inflict damage to the point that small shells can penetrate the triple STS steel deck, triple/quadruple
longitudinal BHDs at sides with heavy armour behind 2 layers of tanks filled with fluid and triple bottom of
Iowa class BB, all designed to withstand 16" AP armour-piercing projectiles, fitted to a battleship designed and built
according to all-or-nothing and immunity zone concept when fighting with similar 16" guns enemy then I have my
doubts whether CMANO is realistically portraying ships with armour.

Does CMANO give only a count of every hit against total points of hull resistance/displacement? This is good
approach when considering damage on modern warships as they are designed and built like merchant vessels,
only cruisers, CVNs having light (composite) armour around vital parts of ship.

Wisconsin could be “mission killed” after several hits by missiles and really heavy guns (not 152/130mm), having
her sensors destroyed (still could be fighting with main guns using secondary control systems) but would never be a complete loss at the bottom of the sea.

Iowa’s, as re-activated in the 80-ties, were intended to be, in theory, the Kirov-killers or Kirov-deterrents.
Thanks to All-Or-Nothing design the Iowas could even take some punch (if escorts could not cope with all incoming
enemy’s missiles) but at the end Iowas would outrun Kirovs, depleted of missiles, and finish them with 16” guns.

How is the All-Or-Nothing design and BB’s armour modelled in CMANO? That is my question.





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< Message edited by ziolo -- 12/30/2015 4:21:42 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Iowa class BB in CMANO - 12/30/2015 3:29:35 PM   
Broncepulido

 

Posts: 385
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Status: offline 		Only in relation to critical hits in lightly protected ship zones (as rudder, bridge, engine, magazines...).
Post #: 2
RE: Iowa class BB in CMANO - 12/30/2015 4:22:04 PM   
ziolo


Posts: 63
Joined: 3/27/2014
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Broncepulido

Only in relation to critical hits in lightly protected ship zones (as rudder, bridge, engine, magazines...).


Talking about lightly protected zones, I know, the Iowa class BBs are different kind of warships.
Unlike modern warships, which operate on the concept of eliminating an incoming threat (anti-ship
missiles or enemy aircraft) before the given threat strikes a ship and thus carry lighter armour,
the Iowa-class was designed and built in an age when ships were expected to withstand an onslaught
of naval shells from enemy ships, emplaced coastal defences from fortified enemy positions near
the coast, and the increasing threat of gunfire and armour piercing/ incendiary bombs dropped by
enemy fighter and bomber aircraft.
Rudder, bridge, command, engine and boilers room, engine shafts, turrets with ammunition and powder magazines,
main battery plotting and control room, primary control room,all of them were enclosed in a heavy armoured
citadel. You could hit Iowa in external to citadel areas and do very little damage to her fight capability.
Several layers of STS and HTS steel and Class A & B armour plates (several hundreds of mm thick) make the
citadel very difficult to penetrate by modern missiles which are design to hit unarmoured thin skin warships
(remember USS Cole hit by explosives from a small boat? this explosion would do no damage to an Iowa BB)

The blue shaded area on the side view below shows the Iowa's protective scheme of the citadel areas. The fuel and
water tanks give an additional protection between the layers of armour at side. The outside hull skin is relatively thin
only to initiate the igniters of incoming shells.





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by ziolo -- 12/30/2015 5:27:22 PM >

(in reply to Broncepulido)
Post #: 3
RE: Iowa class BB in CMANO - 12/30/2015 11:30:54 PM   
Dysta


Posts: 1909
Joined: 8/8/2015
Status: offline 		Or simple answer: a majority of deck is made of wood, reinforced with steel that only serve as a support. If a penetrating shot/bomb went through it, the Iowa will becomes a floating furnace.

But I am still admire its formidable thickness of protective sides, which is thick enough to survive from few 500KG warhead of torps and/or missiles.

(in reply to ziolo)
Post #: 4
RE: Iowa class BB in CMANO - 12/30/2015 11:46:30 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dysta

Or simple answer: a majority of deck is made of wood, reinforced with steel that only serve as a support. If a penetrating shot/bomb went through it, the Iowa will becomes a floating furnace.

But I am still admire its formidable thickness of protective sides, which is thick enough to survive from few 500KG warhead of torps and/or missiles.


I think you missed all the deck and citadel deck armour in diagram. Majority of ship deck was protected by various levels of armour and not just "serve as support". Those armour values with arrow are "deck armour" on various levels. Almost all deck was protected at least by 38 mm of STS.

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(in reply to Dysta)
Post #: 5
RE: Iowa class BB in CMANO - 12/31/2015 12:57:11 AM   
Dysta


Posts: 1909
Joined: 8/8/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dysta

Or simple answer: a majority of deck is made of wood, reinforced with steel that only serve as a support. If a penetrating shot/bomb went through it, the Iowa will becomes a floating furnace.

But I am still admire its formidable thickness of protective sides, which is thick enough to survive from few 500KG warhead of torps and/or missiles.


I think you missed all the deck and citadel deck armour in diagram. Majority of ship deck was protected by various levels of armour and not just "serve as support". Those armour values with arrow are "deck armour" on various levels. Almost all deck was protected at least by 38 mm of STS.

Oh god, that is surely not an ordinary WWII myth about wooden deck on warships.

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 6
RE: Iowa class BB in CMANO - 12/31/2015 2:06:32 AM   
hellfish6


Posts: 843
Joined: 6/15/2008
Status: offline 		I seem to recall that the devs have said that really detailed ship gunnery and armor simulation will come with a WWII game. I'm happy to be corrected on this, however.

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Post #: 7
RE: Iowa class BB in CMANO - 12/31/2015 8:10:45 AM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hellfish6

I seem to recall that the devs have said that really detailed ship gunnery and armor simulation will come with a WWII game. I'm happy to be corrected on this, however.


It is true, they have said that gunnery and armour is not detailed yet and it can sometimes give funny results. E.g. Soviet ship sinking Iowa with 130mm etc.

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


(in reply to hellfish6)
Post #: 8
RE: Iowa class BB in CMANO - 12/31/2015 11:20:36 AM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hellfish6

I seem to recall that the devs have said that really detailed ship gunnery and armor simulation will come with a WWII game. I'm happy to be corrected on this, however.


Yeah that's pretty much it.

Mike

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Post #: 9
RE: Iowa class BB in CMANO - 12/31/2015 3:31:12 PM   
ryszardsh

 

Posts: 93
Joined: 1/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk


quote:

ORIGINAL: hellfish6

I seem to recall that the devs have said that really detailed ship gunnery and armor simulation will come with a WWII game. I'm happy to be corrected on this, however.


Yeah that's pretty much it.

Mike


So would tweaking the unit proficiency (Iowa BB = ace, etc) balance these issue somewhat? Or does that only impact offensive proficiency, i.e. chance of hit when shooting?

(in reply to mikmykWS)
Post #: 10
RE: Iowa class BB in CMANO - 12/31/2015 3:32:45 PM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline 		No wouldn't help. We need to actually implement armor etc.

Mike

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Post #: 11
RE: Iowa class BB in CMANO - 12/31/2015 7:33:33 PM   
ziolo


Posts: 63
Joined: 3/27/2014
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

No wouldn't help. We need to actually implement armor etc.

Mike


Mike, thanks for clarification. Is it any chance in near future that we have the armor vs projectiles & missiles implemented for CMANO? I mean for BB's but also cruisers, like Des Moines class or even Sverdlovs.
It would really enhance the CMANO realism for the hypothetical scenarios from the cold war era especially from the 50-ties, Korean War and 60-ties, Vietnam War, etc. However I see that it would not be any big priority for your team at the moment considering the Modern warfare as in the CMANO name, but who knows? We can always dream...

I am delighted with the progress of CMANO, overall play-ability, and your team continuous work on improvement in realism. And waiting for more stuff in years to come. I hope this project will not stop like others previous platforms.
If one day we get the armor implemented I will be very happy.

(in reply to mikmykWS)
Post #: 12
RE: Iowa class BB in CMANO - 12/31/2015 9:06:07 PM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline 		It's not likely to happen soon. Sorry! We all wish we could nail some of this stuff quicker but we've got to stick to a plan that keeps us in business and somewhat sane. It's definitely on the list.

Mike

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Post #: 13
RE: Iowa class BB in CMANO - 1/1/2016 9:15:57 PM   
Dimitris

 

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline 		Something I've been curious about every time someone praises the "armored citadel" concept (not exclusively on the Iowa class): What happens to the super-armored block(s) when the rest of the ship is blown/burned away? Can it/they even remain afloat?

< Message edited by Sunburn -- 1/1/2016 10:36:28 PM >

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Post #: 14
RE: Iowa class BB in CMANO - 1/1/2016 9:36:43 PM   
Randomizer


Posts: 1473
Joined: 6/28/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

Something I've been curious about every time someone sings the praises of the "armored citadel" concept (not exclusively on the Iowa class): What happens to the super-armored block(s) when the rest of the ship is blown/burned away? Can it/they even remain afloat?

Typically, there was supposed to be sufficient reserve buoyancy and enough reserve stability to keep the ship afloat with the unarmoured ends flooded. British naval architects had gone through a "citadel" phase during the ironclad period and decided that it was an impractical scheme overall and an expensive one since it required a larger hull which cost more and necessitated greater propulsive power, which also increased cost. The Admiral Class of ironclad battleships were built using armoured citadels and but HMS Camperdown was very nearly lost when she had her stem wrecked in the collision with HMS Victoria in 1893. Only beaching her on the nearby Levant coast and a flat calm likely saved the ship. The Victoria disaster pretty much soured the Royal Navy on this armour arrangement. You can find some discussion on this in Parkes, British Battleships and no doubt lots of related noise on the Internet.

-C

< Message edited by Randomizer -- 1/1/2016 10:39:21 PM >

(in reply to Dimitris)
Post #: 15
RE: Iowa class BB in CMANO - 1/1/2016 11:18:25 PM   
Primarchx


Posts: 3102
Joined: 1/20/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

Something I've been curious about every time someone praises the "armored citadel" concept (not exclusively on the Iowa class): What happens to the super-armored block(s) when the rest of the ship is blown/burned away? Can it/they even remain afloat?


FWIW, I helped test a Dreadnought->WWII naval combat system by some very talented ameteurs a few years back and while armor was very nice, you did not want your shiny BB getting hammered by fast-firing low caliber rounds for long as they wiped out your upper works and started nasty fires. Not to mention the danger of torpedoes. Armor worked well, but only covered certain areas of the ship. I saw the Yamato pummeled into scrap a few times by big guns, too. Those 18" are nice but their rate of fire wasn't all that great and their magazine allowance was not all that generous.

(in reply to Dimitris)
Post #: 16
RE: Iowa class BB in CMANO - 1/5/2016 6:32:47 AM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk
quote:

ORIGINAL: hellfish6
I seem to recall that the devs have said that really detailed ship gunnery and armor simulation will come with a WWII game. I'm happy to be corrected on this, however.

Yeah that's pretty much it.

Are there actually any plans for a WWII game in the foreseeable future? If so, would it be integrated into this game (as a paid "module", etc.), or be a stand-alone game?




< Message edited by 76mm -- 1/5/2016 7:33:15 AM >

(in reply to mikmykWS)
Post #: 17
RE: Iowa class BB in CMANO - 1/5/2016 11:40:30 AM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline 		Likely pay unless we're stupid and decide to not get a return for the effort.

Mike

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RE: Iowa class BB in CMANO - 1/5/2016 12:20:16 PM   
renders


Posts: 1208
Joined: 8/13/2013
From: italy bologna
Status: offline 		ehehehehe LOL

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RE: Iowa class BB in CMANO - 1/5/2016 12:28:35 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk
Likely pay unless we're stupid and decide to not get a return for the effort.

uh, OK, but you're answering a question I didn't ask; I assumed any WWII content would not be free. I guess my question wasn't clear, let me try again:
1) Are there specific plans for a WWII game, or is it more in the category of "maybe someday..."?; and
2) if there are such plans, will the WWII content be able to be used within this game or will it be a stand-alone game?

(in reply to mikmykWS)
Post #: 20
RE: Iowa class BB in CMANO - 1/5/2016 1:53:20 PM   
ziolo


Posts: 63
Joined: 3/27/2014
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

It's not likely to happen soon. Sorry! We all wish we could nail some of this stuff quicker but we've got to stick to a plan that keeps us in business and somewhat sane. It's definitely on the list.

Mike


Mike, there is no doubt that CMANO team has to concentrate on modern warfare. This line of development is without any doubt good for the CMANO especially for the professional version and, obviously, takes priority.
I do not think there would be potential corporate clients interested in having historical units like BBs and CAs with an armour properly modelled.
I am a normal "recreational" user interested in "the whole" post WW2 period and I can only say that I would buy an extra pack containing properly modelled armoured units.
My hope is that you will do it in near future once other modern warfare priorities are +/- completed (and I am also interested in them too)

I could suggest a temporary fix for next CMANO update to avoid that 130mm/152mm guns sink an Iowa. It could be a conditional: if hit by gun<200mm then BBdamage=0


(in reply to mikmykWS)
Post #: 21
RE: Iowa class BB in CMANO - 1/5/2016 2:02:38 PM   
Primarchx


Posts: 3102
Joined: 1/20/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ziolo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

It's not likely to happen soon. Sorry! We all wish we could nail some of this stuff quicker but we've got to stick to a plan that keeps us in business and somewhat sane. It's definitely on the list.

Mike


Mike, there is no doubt that CMANO team has to concentrate on modern warfare. This line of development is without any doubt good for the CMANO especially for the professional version and, obviously, takes priority.
I do not think there would be potential corporate clients interested in having historical units like BBs and CAs with an armour properly modelled.
I am a normal "recreational" user interested in "the whole" post WW2 period and I can only say that I would buy an extra pack containing properly modelled armoured units.
My hope is that you will do it in near future once other modern warfare priorities are +/- completed (and I am also interested in them too)

I could suggest a temporary fix for next CMANO update to avoid that 130mm/152mm guns sink an Iowa. It could be a conditional: if hit by gun<200mm then BBdamage=0




That's simply not accurate. Hit an Iowa with dozens of 130/152mm projectiles will result in significantly more than 0 damage. Fires will start, secondary weapons will be damaged, radars and other sensors destroyed, lightly-armored sections of the upper works and deck will be torn up. In tabletop battles I've had BBs make the mistake of getting too close to 6" light cruisers and they come away with significant gunfire damage.

(in reply to ziolo)
Post #: 22
RE: Iowa class BB in CMANO - 1/5/2016 2:28:05 PM   
ziolo


Posts: 63
Joined: 3/27/2014
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx


quote:

ORIGINAL: ziolo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

It's not likely to happen soon. Sorry! We all wish we could nail some of this stuff quicker but we've got to stick to a plan that keeps us in business and somewhat sane. It's definitely on the list.

Mike


Mike, there is no doubt that CMANO team has to concentrate on modern warfare. This line of development is without any doubt good for the CMANO especially for the professional version and, obviously, takes priority.
I do not think there would be potential corporate clients interested in having historical units like BBs and CAs with an armour properly modelled.
I am a normal "recreational" user interested in "the whole" post WW2 period and I can only say that I would buy an extra pack containing properly modelled armoured units.
My hope is that you will do it in near future once other modern warfare priorities are +/- completed (and I am also interested in them too)

I could suggest a temporary fix for next CMANO update to avoid that 130mm/152mm guns sink an Iowa. It could be a conditional: if hit by gun<200mm then BBdamage=0




That's simply not accurate. Hit an Iowa with dozens of 130/152mm projectiles will result in significantly more than 0 damage. Fires will start, secondary weapons will be damaged, radars and other sensors destroyed, lightly-armored sections of the upper works and deck will be torn up. In tabletop battles I've had BBs make the mistake of getting too close to 6" light cruisers and they come away with significant gunfire damage.



Well, better than sinking a BB with 130/152mm guns...
So, maybe this: if hit by gun<200mm then BBdamage= UnarmouredShipDamage/ArmourFactor
Where ArmourFactor=100 as an example.
Also: if hit by gun<200mm, BB damage shall not go lower than, let say, 50% of an original total resistance points. This is to avoid an embarrassing sinking of a BB by small guns.

I made a test some time ago and an Iowa was sunk after consecutive hitting by 5 to 10 Shipwrecks and this looks OK. But not to be sunk by 130/152mm guns just because currently the engine makes a count of total damage points.
That is just my opinion.


< Message edited by ziolo -- 1/6/2016 12:14:18 PM >

(in reply to Primarchx)
Post #: 23
RE: Iowa class BB in CMANO - 1/5/2016 2:42:56 PM   
Primarchx


Posts: 3102
Joined: 1/20/2013
Status: offline 		Years ago I recall disabling the 6" turrets of a Sverdlov with minigun fire from a Loach. The damage models have come a long way since then.

(in reply to ziolo)
Post #: 24
RE: Iowa class BB in CMANO - 1/5/2016 3:14:23 PM   
ziolo


Posts: 63
Joined: 3/27/2014
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline 		Certainly, the models improved a lot. However the models (in CMANO) are for modern warships. These are constructed without armour with few exceptions I have mentioned in my first post.
Iowa has triple deck, constructed like layer over layer. 152mm shell would detonate on top 32mm STS steel deck and only debris would reach the main 120mm thick lower deck of grade A steel. No penetration of the main citadel. This triple deck is design to withstand the 406mm projectiles within the immunity zone.
152mm hit to the board, would be even less effective.
Out of citadel, no armour zone - here you can hit, not a big problem for a battleship. It is difficult to score direct hit on radars and masts (they are also protected by 38mm STS steel). There are no vital components in this areas apart from sensors.
And BB has all command and vital equipment within All-Or-Nothing citadel.
I am sure 152mm shell would not disable any of the main turrets fitted with 430/240mm armour.

< Message edited by ziolo -- 1/6/2016 12:07:46 PM >

(in reply to Primarchx)
Post #: 25
RE: Iowa class BB in CMANO - 1/5/2016 6:17:41 PM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline 		This will be useful when we get there. Thanks!

Mike

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Post #: 26
RE: Iowa class BB in CMANO - 1/5/2016 11:49:17 PM   
ultradave


Posts: 1355
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

It's not likely to happen soon. Sorry! We all wish we could nail some of this stuff quicker but we've got to stick to a plan that keeps us in business and somewhat sane. It's definitely on the list.

Mike


Definitely a solid plan. That result is what we all want too!! :-)


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(in reply to mikmykWS)
Post #: 27
RE: Iowa class BB in CMANO - 1/6/2016 11:06:38 AM   
ziolo


Posts: 63
Joined: 3/27/2014
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

This will be useful when we get there. Thanks!

Mike


Mike, thanks for the team excellent work to date. We the users are confident that CMANO is going in right direction!

(in reply to mikmykWS)
Post #: 28
RE: Iowa class BB in CMANO - 1/7/2016 10:57:55 AM   
ziolo


Posts: 63
Joined: 3/27/2014
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline 		I have attached the cross section of the passive protection system of Iowa class which shows better the thicknesses of the individual parts of the citadel. (Reproduction by permission of the author).
Woda/Paliwo means water/fuel




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by ziolo -- 1/7/2016 11:58:40 AM >

(in reply to ziolo)
Post #: 29
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