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Veteran Player needs some advice - No Hooper! - 1/8/2016 1:31:53 AM

Luskan

Posts: 1897
Joined: 7/11/2002
From: Down Under
Status: offline

Hello friends,

For those that remember me, I was one of the original UV guys that got to beta test WITP / wrote some AARs for the beta test phases of the game etc. I've been in lurk mode for a long time, but still playing WITP and WITP:AE plenty over the last . . . 8 (?) years.

What I'm getting at here is that I'm not a noob - I've got plenty of experience.

That said, I've been playing a series of WITP:AE Scenario 2s as the allies - which is still pretty new for me. The guy I'm playing with is one of my eve online buds who is probably the most fearsome Japanese player I've dealt with -> certainly has surpassed my still playing the red team. So I'm looking for some advice from veteran allied players as to strategic and tactical hints and tips that an old school WITPer should consider.

A few things to keep in mind:
- We do a lot of fast turns and have completed 4 (!) WITP / WITP:AE scenario 2s with Hooper as the japs and me as the allies.

- Honours are about even so far: 1 major victory for the allies, 1 draw and two minor wins to the Japs.

- Hooper is super organised and spends (literally) months on his Jap T1. He is a master of jap economics and pilot training.

- We know each other well, and like chess players often recognise repeated gambits within the game (e.g. he always takes Darwin)

- In our last game, I attempted a war of pilot and plane attrition and failed. His economy was so strong (incl pilot training) that he still had all the pilot and modern airframe pools in the world to keep the fight going (was October 45 before we called it).

- He's a hedgehog: takes his objectives then will happily spend 2 years of game time fortifying everything in depth. There won't be many over extentions or gaps in the armor I can take advantage of

- In a previous game I suckered him into overcommitting in the solomons and PNG and then pretty much won the game there by encircling / demolishing with overwhelming LBA. Since then he keeps a perimeter pretty well out of allied fighter range, and builds great anti bomber caps (with many many ultra modern jap airplanes for any date - there is no "wait for the end game and your uber plane advantage" strategy to be had here.

- We have strong, non-gamey house rules, mostly around LBA and doing silly stuff in China.

- He is about to send me Turn 1 of game # 5.

So . . . veteran allied players - give me your secrets! I understand this is a very broad remit but I'm looking for ideas both strategic and tactical that I haven't used before to avoid being predictable. I already have a good list from trawling these forums over the last few days, but willing to consider anything at this point:
- Northern campaign strategy / uses for the aleutians
- Bases you traditionally take vs bypass (traditionally I take them all in a colossal amphib meat grinder but it was too slow to win last game)
- Sub bases and patrol areas
- Unit transfers to india/burma front and vice versa (remember I'll be paying PP for anything and everything that does that)
- early game / mid game / late game strategies for dealing with a strong jap economy
- paratroop tactics (never really used them - they seem fragile)
- Cap layering for allied CV blobs
- Whatever - if you've got something that worked, stick in in this thread and I'll consider if i can make it work against my very methodical opponent.
- favourite asw plane / how many do you devote to asw?

thanks in advance!

< Message edited by Luskan -- 1/8/2016 3:06:37 AM >

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Post #: 1

RE: Veteran Player needs some advice - No Hooper! - 1/8/2016 3:28:46 AM

witpqs

Posts: 26087
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From: Argleton
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Might not get back with a real answer tonight, but can you drop in a copy of your house rules in case they affect suggestions?

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RE: Veteran Player needs some advice - No Hooper! - 1/8/2016 5:11:06 AM

Luskan

Posts: 1897
Joined: 7/11/2002
From: Down Under
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Totally usual stuff:
- no early game low naval bombing for 4es
- pay PP for units that get transferred (esp china)
- no mass PT boats (max of 12)
- no allied orders t1 other than to move existing tfs etc.

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Post #: 3

RE: Veteran Player needs some advice - No Hooper! - 1/8/2016 7:13:40 AM

jmalter

Posts: 1673
Joined: 10/12/2010
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hi Luskan, just 4 ideas off the top:

1) Dutch & USArmy 2EB airgroups Train for LowN from the get-go. They'll give a much better account of themselves than they would doing NavB.

2) 2 groups of USNavy Cats, staffed w/ NavT/NavS pilots & supported by a torpedo-equipped AirHQ, can bring ruin on IJ attempts to amph-assault Port Moresby.

3) An investment in PPs can promote Dutch BaseForces to unrestricted ABDA command, they can be rescued from the DEI out-stations & shipped to the North Oz coastline, if you do it right, those BFs can recombine. The undeveloped North Oz base-hexes can be changed to ABDAcom for cheap PP cost, use the re-built Dutch BFs to build these Oz bases. Then you can withdraw the KNIL airgroups there, when their DEI bases become untenable.

4) At start, ship fuel from USA EC to Cape Town, as you withdraw shipping to that port. All refugees should be set to 'do not refuel' when they arrive at CT. Don't let CT run dry of fuel!

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RE: Veteran Player needs some advice - No Hooper! - 1/8/2016 10:09:48 AM

Luskan

Posts: 1897
Joined: 7/11/2002
From: Down Under
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

hi Luskan, just 4 ideas off the top:

1) Dutch & USArmy 2EB airgroups Train for LowN from the get-go. They'll give a much better account of themselves than they would doing NavB.

I generally train 4-6 groups of these but save them for the B-25 low level variant.

quote:

2) 2 groups of USNavy Cats, staffed w/ NavT/NavS pilots & supported by a torpedo-equipped AirHQ, can bring ruin on IJ attempts to amph-assault Port Moresby.

Hrm . . . yep good idea. Never used catalinas for anything but search so this might be a thing. I assume you leave them set to nav search not to nav attack?

quote:

3) An investment in PPs can promote Dutch BaseForces to unrestricted ABDA command, they can be rescued from the DEI out-stations & shipped to the North Oz coastline, if you do it right, those BFs can recombine. The undeveloped North Oz base-hexes can be changed to ABDAcom for cheap PP cost, use the re-built Dutch BFs to build these Oz bases. Then you can withdraw the KNIL airgroups there, when their DEI bases become untenable.

Hooper usually doesn't hit Pearl (should have mentioned that) - he splits KB and hunts ruthlessly in the SRA so it is brave sir robin for me I think.

quote:

4) At start, ship fuel from USA EC to Cape Town, as you withdraw shipping to that port. All refugees should be set to 'do not refuel' when they arrive at CT. Don't let CT run dry of fuel!

Yep - I usually pull them out to CT and reorganise there.

Thanks for the tips! One of them is a definite new thing I've never tried that he won't expect.

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RE: Veteran Player needs some advice - No Hooper! - 1/8/2016 10:43:55 AM

GetAssista

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n) Alternating pressure for geographically distant locations to make IJN and KB in particular spend fuel. Like Aleuteans-Kuriles vs DEI. And Kuriles is so-o sensitive an area.., so many great AARs with decisive blows struck there.

n+1) There are so many rocks in the Pacific that Japan just does not have the resources to man and fortify them all, so the hedgehog is bound to have holes. It is very annoying for JFBs when Allies get a horde of Seabees onto some unoccupied dot hexes and quickly have an airbase out of the blue. With paradrop to secure the base and prevent disablements. KB can't be everywhere in 1943+, and if he splits then more troubles for him

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RE: Veteran Player needs some advice - No Hooper! - 1/8/2016 9:14:09 PM

kbfchicago

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From: NC, USA
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Death by a thousand flee bites early on...

Use your personal intel...with four games behind you suspect you have a fair sense as to where and in what prioritiy he will draw his out most reach/defensive line. Examples; Use the extra time to lay in heavier defense for what you think is a later priority...give up the early priority targets. If he has a patern of switching between theaters, be prepared for some early strikes where you suspect he will not be to take advantage.

position Dutch, & PI B17s to pepper prime Oil/refinary targets immeadiately after they are taken. Day if you can get away with it, night if you don't think you can. This also can cause him to hold back limited front line fighters in a defense mode when he needs them at the point of the spear.

For subs...even though effectiveness is low, hit the anticipated resource shipping to HIs early. Likely drive him to longer lanes, more fuel usage to avoid, driving up total fuel cost despite few sinkings. Since IJN ASW is pathetic to start as well you can get pretty aggressive (close to ports) for the first few months. I'll even sortie into the ports (at least the ones without mines at start)! Caused a previous opponent to dedicate ASW to "in port" cover and/or spread his mines around - in 1942, at home islands...ca ching! operating cost just went up, mine use in forward areas is down, and ASW assets didn't get out of port to cover convoys.

+1 on the Dutch suggestions, always leverage this! Many units are small enough to evac with flying boats and drop into reserve or very annoying side ventures for the IJ.

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RE: Veteran Player needs some advice - No Hooper! - 1/9/2016 3:20:36 AM

Luskan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kbfchicago

position Dutch, & PI B17s to pepper prime Oil/refinary targets immeadiately after they are taken. Day if you can get away with it, night if you don't think you can. This also can cause him to hold back limited front line fighters in a defense mode when he needs them at the point of the spear.

He is pretty methodical with the air cover . . . but this should be totally doable - bashing in a few oil or refinery points will make a big differnce to his speed of advance.

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RE: Veteran Player needs some advice - No Hooper! - 1/9/2016 5:59:54 AM

Alfred

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Come April 1942 definitely convert your 3 candidate SS to SST and use them behind enemy lines to capture enemy bases. Does not really matter how inconsequential those bases are, the effort is a major Allied force multiplier forcing either more enemy dispersal or gives you eyes deep into the enemy rear. useful not just for intel but to vector in Allied subs onto targets.

BTW, is Hooper the real name of the classical WITP opponent with an avatar name? Or was that Raverdave?

Alfred

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RE: Veteran Player needs some advice - No Hooper! - 1/9/2016 2:56:12 PM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
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From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Luskan

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

hi Luskan, just 4 ideas off the top:

2) 2 groups of USNavy Cats, staffed w/ NavT/NavS pilots & supported by a torpedo-equipped AirHQ, can bring ruin on IJ attempts to amph-assault Port Moresby.

Hrm . . . yep good idea. Never used catalinas for anything but search so this might be a thing. I assume you leave them set to nav search not to nav attack?

Thanks for the tips! One of them is a definite new thing I've never tried that he won't expect.

Put the CATS on naval attack with 20% search, or better still, have other aircraft do the searching to find the enemy first.
Caveat - you do not want to expose these groups to loss or show your new tactic until you have a worthwhile target, so keep them at an inland base like Charters Towers or Coen until you have a good target in the area.

EDIT: Some versions of the PBY cannot land if there is no water, but I think the PBY5A can use inland bases.

< Message edited by BBfanboy -- 1/9/2016 6:05:33 PM >

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RE: Veteran Player needs some advice - No Hooper! - 1/10/2016 7:07:27 AM

Luskan

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From: Down Under
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

BTW, is Hooper the real name of the classical WITP opponent with an avatar name?� Or was that Raverdave?

Alfred�

Hooper is on these forums as Hooper82.

Raverdave was my original opponent from the betas.

I like the SST suggestion - never really used them and I used to just use marine raiders as an air delivered reinforcement to a base I thought was at risk. Much better use for them i think.

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RE: Veteran Player needs some advice - No Hooper! - 1/12/2016 10:41:05 AM

ndworl

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From: Brisbane, Australia
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I just wonder is it time to find a new opponent or play different sides. The underlying economic, military and geographic features push both sides into strategies that are predictable. Can't be helped. The historic actors only had one go at it, but the game gives us endless opportunities.

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RE: Veteran Player needs some advice - No Hooper! - 1/13/2016 3:15:16 AM

Luskan

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My opponent and I have been known to do 30 turns a day some days - probably average 7-10 most days.

Never found another opponent with that speed!

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RE: Veteran Player needs some advice - No Hooper! - 1/13/2016 4:24:05 AM

Jonathan Pollard

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I remember reading about the "Fortress Palembang" gambit. Is that still considered to be a worthwhile option?

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RE: Veteran Player needs some advice - No Hooper! - 1/13/2016 3:48:04 PM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jonathan Pollard

I remember reading about the "Fortress Palembang" gambit. Is that still considered to be a worthwhile option?

Not so much in those scenarios where supply generation has been removed as an output of oil refineries.

Alfred

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RE: Veteran Player needs some advice - No Hooper! - 1/14/2016 7:16:28 AM

Luskan

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From: Down Under
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And not that possible against an opponent who will use his 7th December strike against Manila, then bring KB or elements of to support a Mersing landing

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Post #: 16

RE: Veteran Player needs some advice - No Hooper! - 1/14/2016 12:10:57 PM

traskott

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1) This guy is really meticulous.... At turn 1. But when the game is ON, you make turns like crazy.

NO.

1 turn/day for you. Of course, with no warning. He has planning all his offensive prior beginning of the game, and later is only puting the plan on map.

You, on the other side, begin the game blind. No clue about attack axis, but you know it will be hard and relentless.

Spend some turns (5-10) at fast pace to see what type of game he is making. Then stop your pace. Begin to plan your defense with the intel and keep him controled.

2) FORGET that "(traditionally I take them all in a colossal amphib meat grinder but it was too slow to win last game) ". It's a big no-no at Witp. Be the surgeon, not the butcher. Invest heavy at recon/intel. Train some Bomber groups at recon. Fly them til you are fed up, and then launch them again to do recon. It's impossible make a shell at all the Pacific. There is more than one crack. Find it, put 3 USMC divisions there. AF9, Liberators. End of the game at this zone to the japanese.

3) If he is skillful with planes and pilots, you too. Training on map, extensive. Not engage but with a large number of fighter, concentrate them to avoid be destroyed piecemeal. Concentrate your CVs, your fleets... Britis bombers only at night. USA bombers at bay til u got 4Es, or good 2Es. 2nd rate fighters are that, 2nd rate, only for emergencies.

4) I disagree about Cats at T.B. I have used them

and it's funny when it works but he only need one good cap ( and he looks like very good at that ) to torch enoughs PBY to lost your main asset at naval search.

5) Dutch bombers should train at lowN, and spend them at the fight of Java/Sumatra. But don't employ them til the invassion is comming.

6) He is good with industry. Use your SS to sink those TKs and with no fuel.... Put A LOT of engineers at Oil Fields. They must burn. Launch an invasion doomed to fail only to bomb some aircraft factories... ( crazy!! ). Palembang must be filled with engineers ASAP. Fight for it. He needs to take it intact, and must take care. You no.

7) Move your fleet. Decoys, once, twice.... Make him move the fleet. You have unlimited fuel, he doesn't.

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RE: Veteran Player needs some advice - No Hooper! - 1/14/2016 8:02:56 PM

pontiouspilot

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If he doesn't attack Pearl does he break up KB? If you know that he historically does it and have some real intell/spotting confirming it then I recommend two ideas: 1. Figure out where he will go with the eastern segment and once you have your 4th Cv plan a trap. Presumably you could bring 4 x CVs to bear against 2-3 of his. If losses are equal it is a big win for allies. This would be the only time I would recommend the USN CVs going near the Japanese carriers until late '42 at earliest. 2. The second idea also is predicated on knowing where KB is. If you have an IJN who wants to whistle around the far flung corners of the Pacific or Indian Ocean plan a raid on the Home Islands. I think Loko did it with CVS. I have done it with old slow BBs in Feb '42. If you do it right you can sink lots of shipping (loko did), potentially destroy a city (at least with BBs) and frankly make your opponent change his entire direction.

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RE: Veteran Player needs some advice - No Hooper! - 1/15/2016 8:09:12 AM

Luskan

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Hooper runs a fleet in being.

Once used as necessary he keeps it invisible so I never know where it is or where I'm safe etc.

Macro strategies aren't going to help me here - I'm looking for the tactical level stuff.

Where do people traditionally spend their PP points for a SCN 2 allied player?

The early B-17s are pretty rubbish, most of the dutch stuff lacks replacement airframes and pilots later. Do people over withdraw to release the 41st Division from Tacoma?

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RE: Veteran Player needs some advice - No Hooper! - 1/15/2016 11:50:13 AM

traskott

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Luskan

Hooper runs a fleet in being.

Once used as necessary he keeps it invisible so I never know where it is or where I'm safe etc.
To keep KB invisible he must be defensive. An invasion of India will be sure suported by KB
Macro strategies aren't going to help me here - I'm looking for the tactical level stuff.

- Tactical level: Keep your LCUs together.
- Always escort your troop convoys.
- Don't send pilots to fight without, at least, Def60.

....

There is soooo many tactical level advices...

Where do people traditionally spend their PP points for a SCN 2 allied player?
SCN 2 gives more toys to Japan, specially planes. If he is a master of production, it's more troublesome for u.
PP should be used to:

- Replace all SS skippers which are rubbish.
- Release US troops ( obvious ).
- Replace all Chinese HQ Commander with low stats.
- Don't bother with Dutch of PI troops.
- Replacement of the Divisions Commanders.

The early B-17s are pretty rubbish, most of the dutch stuff lacks replacement airframes and pilots later. Do people over withdraw to release the 41st Division from Tacoma?
Yes. Try to release the 41st ( or any US Division ), ASAP.
Early B-17s are wonderful planes, which have more range than B-17E, so fit as the perfect naval search/recon airplane at 1942 (when allied player is sort of recon devices ). It's not a bomber, but a recon plan.
Dutch AirForce got only 2 or 3 sqns post 4/42, feel free to thow them away to the battle (but train them first).

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RE: Veteran Player needs some advice - No Hooper! - 1/15/2016 1:14:19 PM

BBfanboy

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I also thought the comment about the early B-17s was not giving them a chance. They cannot stand up to fighters because of lack of defensive armament crew defensive skill and they bomb poorly because of minimal training and experience. You can't arm and armour the plane but if you get them out and train the crew they can do great work on NavS, Recon and bombing places that have no CAP (because the Japanese player thinks they are out of range of bombers). Anything that forces them to spread out fighters and withdraw ships is great stuff.

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RE: Veteran Player needs some advice - No Hooper! - 1/15/2016 3:14:53 PM

witpqs

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The early B-17s are not rubbish, the pilots are rubbish. But in this game all Allied bombers need help from fighters when the the Japanese fighter pilots get better and Japanese fighters advance to newer generations. In the case of 4EB they need friendly fighter sweeps of targets. 2EB need both sweeps and escorts. Of course 4EB will never complain about escorts.

Tactical advice: Be stingy with your bombers. Train the hell out of them. Use them continuously on milk runs where enemy fighters cannot oppose them, but keep them above flak and keep fatigue down (rest % as needed). Milk runs are important because it seems like there is no way for bomber pilots to gain experience (still highly critical in spite of specific skills) except on actual missions. Fighters can CAP over Kansas can gain experience, bombers not so much.

I'm sure you already have better training advice than I can give, but do it and stockpile the pilots. Consider that Attack Bombers need pilots trained in Low (Ground and.or Naval) to be really effective. Their losses will be very high no matter how good the pilots, so be far more stingy with them even than with other bombers. Use them higher on milk runs to get experience. Restrict use of them to when it matters, because the losses will keep you from having them available when it matters if you fritter them away when it doesn't. When you can cover them and have enemy enemy units in open terrain, especially no forts or moving: "...let slip the dogs of war!"

Train Recon in your various air forces or your recon will stink. Recon is HUGE in this game. Long range recon will get shot down over Japan and major bases way more than you anticipate. Put recon higher, 25,000 ft. Break up most or all recon groups into /A/B/C to cover more bases. When in complicated large ground battle areas leave some recon without assigned targets so they have a chance at picking up enemy ground positions you have not seen previously.

< Message edited by witpqs -- 1/15/2016 4:16:38 PM >

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RE: Veteran Player needs some advice - No Hooper! - 1/17/2016 10:33:32 AM

Luskan

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From: Down Under
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Anyone have an exact reference table for what effect fort size has on AV at a base?

manual seems to be missing that appendix (or I'm being unusually thick).

e.g. 100 AV at a base behind a lvl 2 fort = 3-1 AV (300AV) to take the base (plus/minus the dice roll).

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Post #: 23

RE: Veteran Player needs some advice - No Hooper! - 1/17/2016 1:29:38 PM

BBfanboy

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Nope. Each fort level provides something like 0.25 defensive value, so your 100 AV with three forts completed (no value for partials) would be worth something like 175 AV if they were defending against an enemy LCU attack. Terrain bonus is on top of the forts built bonus. HQ bonuses ( on die rolls) are on top of that).

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Post #: 24

RE: Veteran Player needs some advice - No Hooper! - 1/17/2016 4:24:49 PM

witpqs

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Alfred has published it (this is my rendition):

Fort	Multiplier
0	1.00
1	1.10
2	1.25
3	1.50
4	1.75
5	2.00
6	2.25
7	2.50
8	2.75
9	3.00

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Post #: 25

RE: Veteran Player needs some advice - No Hooper! - 1/18/2016 6:57:29 AM

Luskan

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Brilliant - that should totally have been in the manual somewhere.

So to truly be comfortably safe against a 2 large IJA division invasion (let's call it 900 AV even though they will land with disruption and maybe losses to CD units) means you're looking for about 600 AV . . . so 450 AV (so a marine division) and a level 3 fort.

I usually never end up stacking that heavily, but I don't want to be the guy that "defends" Noumea or Suva or something with 200AV and 20 support units that all die horribly.

What do people do for sub deployments - assuming a lot of dead subs at Manila . . . north to the Kuriles, or from Midway (or worse: Pearl)? Anything clever / cool here? I tend to use patrols rather than static subs at choke points. Does anyone transfer all the subs to Colombo and fwd base from Chittagong or somewhere into the south China Sea?

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Post #: 26

RE: Veteran Player needs some advice - No Hooper! - 1/18/2016 11:27:19 AM

Alfred

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The manual was not meant to provide hard algorithm data.

Alfred

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Post #: 27

RE: Veteran Player needs some advice - No Hooper! - 1/18/2016 11:47:34 AM

BBfanboy

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You are not factoring terrain into your estimation of fortification needs.

Be aware that in the first six-12 months Japan can bring enough force to bear to take any base before you can get enough reinforcements there. The best you can do is decide which points will be your major defence points and send as many troops, engineers, naval and air support, and AA as you can spare.

Also, do not focus solely on AV and forts. Battles are affected by many things, especially supply, firepower and leaders. You will never have enough troops, tanks, artillery and HQs to make a bastion of every place you want to defend. You will also be constrained by stacking limits that will penalize your supply if you exceed them greatly. One of the longest parts of the game learning curve is to develop a "feel" for what you need to put where to put up a credible fight and not risk too many assets that you cannot replace easily.

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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RE: Veteran Player needs some advice - No Hooper! - 1/19/2016 9:37:14 AM

Luskan

Posts: 1897
Joined: 7/11/2002
From: Down Under
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I've had some aggressive japanese opponents in the past - they tend to fold quicker than the hedgehogs because "victory disease" is as real and dangerous in game as without.

That said - stacking limits are your friend as the allies in the pacific. The right 6000 man atoll with the right forts is hellishly costly for the japanese player to take - often they won't have the supply to crowd you out if you utilise your original engineer teams well.

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RE: Veteran Player needs some advice - No Hooper! - 1/24/2016 3:47:32 PM

leehunt27@bloomberg.net

Posts: 533
Joined: 9/6/2004
Status: offline

Great discussion. A few points:

1. I would also say be careful with your CV's and BB's. I'm in a game where the Allied player was very aggressive with his BB's and lost quite a few. That's less bombardment power for the Marines landings late game, and the casualty rates are higher.

2. Fortress Palembang is a great idea, a real thorn in the IJ's side early on.

3. Cat's are best for Naval Search IMHO, you need to spot the KB coming.

4. Train up some USAAF bombers for Naval attack, too often the US players rely on the CV naval aviation to attack IJ ships. It helps to let the land based air force get some of that burden and also present a deterrent and threat.

5. Subs to DEI. Sink tankers. Sink tankers. Sink tankers.

One could write a book on this topic just for this game, let alone the real war. Curious to hear more thoughts...

< Message edited by leehunt27@bloomberg.net -- 1/24/2016 4:49:09 PM >

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