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Very improbable FoW sunk CV - 1/22/2016 2:59:30 AM   
stretch

 

Posts: 636
Joined: 12/17/2001
Status: offline 		I am sure this listing for sunk CV Kaga is Fog of War, because, well, it has to be. I have no aircraft in range, not even PBY's. There is no mention of this hex or one close by in the combat report, combat events, or operations report, and I saw nothing in the replay. This hex is simply out of play except for SS of which I have none close. Any idea what triggers something so odd to get in the sunk ships list?






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RE: Very improbable FoW sunk CV - 1/22/2016 3:06:52 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		It could be that a Japanese carrier (the report says Kaga, but that too could be FOW) was hit by a 1k bomb earlier and somewhere else. Then that carrier limped off towards Truk or Rabaul or some other port. The computer is reporting that she sank enroute. Of course, the sinking could be FOW too.

But is it possible that an IJ carrier was hit by a bomb somewhere in the theater in the not-too-distant past? If so that's what's going on here.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 1/22/2016 4:08:46 AM >

(in reply to stretch)
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RE: Very improbable FoW sunk CV - 1/22/2016 3:12:28 AM   
stretch

 

Posts: 636
Joined: 12/17/2001
Status: offline 		Yes stupid me, had the first CV battle of my campaign 6 turns ago (in real life, 2 weeks, that's why I forgot) between Brisbane and Noumea, and quite by accident. Was lucky to get away without losing a CV and didn't think I scored any hits on an enemy CV. It must be something from that engagement as the TF heads back to the north. 6 days is awfully fast movement from the battle to that location for a CV with enough damage to eventually sink, but maybe it was the dreaded "Temporary flotation repairs failing" hitting the AI.

< Message edited by stretch -- 1/22/2016 4:15:32 AM >

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Post #: 3
RE: Very improbable FoW sunk CV - 1/22/2016 3:50:19 AM   
Lokasenna


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Status: offline 		More probably, it didn't actually sink. Did you notice any planes destroyed on the ground?

(in reply to stretch)
Post #: 4
RE: Very improbable FoW sunk CV - 1/22/2016 10:55:55 AM   
btd64


Posts: 9973
Joined: 1/23/2010
From: Mass. USA. now in Lancaster, OHIO
Status: offline 		A search aircraft saw it smoking and listing and reported it going down. Or not. I don't know how many times I've received reports about enemy ships that end in "ship is still in service". Love, love, love FOW....GP

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RE: Very improbable FoW sunk CV - 1/22/2016 11:30:05 AM   
Denniss

 

Posts: 7902
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From: Germany, Hannover (region)
Status: offline 		Wasn't there a US carrier the japanese believed/reported sunk multiple times only to find it back in action some months later?

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RE: Very improbable FoW sunk CV - 1/22/2016 11:53:56 AM   
btd64


Posts: 9973
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From: Mass. USA. now in Lancaster, OHIO
Status: offline 		Early on, USS Yorktown, CV5. Reported sunk in the Coral sea, Kicked some a$$ at Midway. And was lost at Midway. RIP Yorktown....GP

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RE: Very improbable FoW sunk CV - 1/22/2016 6:25:34 PM   
crsutton


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Status: offline 		Actually, when you get a type of report like that (far away and days after the battle) it is my experience that the ship actually did sink. You never know with Japanese ships. Sometimes they catch on fire and just keep burning until they sink. Or just have a critical system failure. Why not ask your opponent?

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RE: Very improbable FoW sunk CV - 1/22/2016 6:29:32 PM   
sfatula

 

Posts: 100
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Status: offline 		The AI probably won't respond.

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RE: Very improbable FoW sunk CV - 1/22/2016 6:36:14 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

More probably, it didn't actually sink. Did you notice any planes destroyed on the ground?


That many days after the battle you can't rely on aircraft losses for confirmation. Very likely the damage levels became high enough a day or two before sinking for the embarked air units to fly off to the nearest land airfield.

Alfred

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 10
RE: Very improbable FoW sunk CV - 1/22/2016 6:38:23 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		When I hear a "sinking ship" sound, I know an enemy vessel has just gone under. Sometimes sinking sounds happen days (even weeks) after the ships was damaged. So sometimes there's guesswork involved. For instance, if DD Asashio takes three torps and you immediately hear those sinking sounds, you can be certain she's gone under. But what if CV Hiyo eats a torp and four bombs way out in CenPac. Three days later you hear sinking sounds. Then you have to make some deducitons: were other ships damaged recently? Were any IJ subs depth-charged? Any tankers hit by a torp two weeks ago? Etc. So "reading the 'sinking ship' sounds" can be an art and a science, but suprisingly often you can predict the casualty.

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RE: Very improbable FoW sunk CV - 1/22/2016 11:13:35 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sfatula

The AI probably won't respond.


Then just look.


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RE: Very improbable FoW sunk CV - 1/23/2016 1:32:52 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

More probably, it didn't actually sink. Did you notice any planes destroyed on the ground?


That many days after the battle you can't rely on aircraft losses for confirmation. Very likely the damage levels became high enough a day or two before sinking for the embarked air units to fly off to the nearest land airfield.

Alfred


I haven't seen this happen, unless the planes are already in the air. If the ship failed a DC roll prior to planes being launched for missions (CAP, search, etc.), they'd all still be onboard. Planes destroyed on the ground is a pretty reliable indicator of CV sinkings, even days after the battle. For me, anyway.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 13
RE: Very improbable FoW sunk CV - 1/23/2016 1:51:00 PM   
btd64


Posts: 9973
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From: Mass. USA. now in Lancaster, OHIO
Status: offline 		Keep in mind that Japanese Damage Control, needed its own damage control. Heavy Damage and/or heavy fire usually means Sunk ship at some point....GP

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RE: Very improbable FoW sunk CV - 1/23/2016 2:08:43 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

More probably, it didn't actually sink. Did you notice any planes destroyed on the ground?


That many days after the battle you can't rely on aircraft losses for confirmation. Very likely the damage levels became high enough a day or two before sinking for the embarked air units to fly off to the nearest land airfield.

Alfred


I haven't seen this happen, unless the planes are already in the air. If the ship failed a DC roll prior to planes being launched for missions (CAP, search, etc.), they'd all still be onboard. Planes destroyed on the ground is a pretty reliable indicator of CV sinkings, even days after the battle. For me, anyway.

Doesn't that depend on whether the damage it suffered was over 50% to prevent the aircraft from subsequently flying off? I don't know for sure but I think the AI scripts would fly off the air groups if damage was a bit below 50% and climbing. Any human player would likely do so.

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RE: Very improbable FoW sunk CV - 1/23/2016 2:53:53 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

More probably, it didn't actually sink. Did you notice any planes destroyed on the ground?


That many days after the battle you can't rely on aircraft losses for confirmation. Very likely the damage levels became high enough a day or two before sinking for the embarked air units to fly off to the nearest land airfield.

Alfred


I haven't seen this happen, unless the planes are already in the air. If the ship failed a DC roll prior to planes being launched for missions (CAP, search, etc.), they'd all still be onboard. Planes destroyed on the ground is a pretty reliable indicator of CV sinkings, even days after the battle. For me, anyway.


Even days after the combat they will fly off if the carrier is in imminent danger of sinking and there is a nearby airfield of course.

That is fairly rare but it is a possibility. It doesn't involve a DC roll pre se but a threshold being reached after one of the several damage control checks which occur during a turn. The planes could have flown off once the damage threshold was reached and then sunk in a subsequent damage control check.

Normally the carrier sinks without anywhere close by for the planes to divert and then the loss of planes is an indicator that the carrier sank even if not yet recorded on the sunk ships list. Here the carrier was in the Solomons close to several airfields.

Alfred

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 16
RE: Very improbable FoW sunk CV - 1/23/2016 3:13:45 PM   
Lokasenna


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From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

More probably, it didn't actually sink. Did you notice any planes destroyed on the ground?


That many days after the battle you can't rely on aircraft losses for confirmation. Very likely the damage levels became high enough a day or two before sinking for the embarked air units to fly off to the nearest land airfield.

Alfred


I haven't seen this happen, unless the planes are already in the air. If the ship failed a DC roll prior to planes being launched for missions (CAP, search, etc.), they'd all still be onboard. Planes destroyed on the ground is a pretty reliable indicator of CV sinkings, even days after the battle. For me, anyway.


Even days after the combat they will fly off if the carrier is in imminent danger of sinking and there is a nearby airfield of course.

That is fairly rare but it is a possibility. It doesn't involve a DC roll pre se but a threshold being reached after one of the several damage control checks which occur during a turn. The planes could have flown off once the damage threshold was reached and then sunk in a subsequent damage control check.

Normally the carrier sinks without anywhere close by for the planes to divert and then the loss of planes is an indicator that the carrier sank even if not yet recorded on the sunk ships list. Here the carrier was in the Solomons close to several airfields.

Alfred


Gotcha.

(in reply to Alfred)
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RE: Very improbable FoW sunk CV - 1/24/2016 4:17:40 PM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Actually, when you get a type of report like that (far away and days after the battle) it is my experience that the ship actually did sink. You never know with Japanese ships. Sometimes they catch on fire and just keep burning until they sink. Or just have a critical system failure. Why not ask your opponent?


Not sure of that. You do not know exactly how many planes the CV still has... maybe some of the planes were damaged/destroyed on the deck or in the hangar and show up as ground losses. But that doesnt mean the CV sank in my experience. Eg. I had a combat report that said, one of my subs torpedoed an US CV. 2 days later or so it would show up as sunk. Incl. some carrier air lost on "ground" iirc. And no no other enemy CV hit which could have been the cause for those plane losses. Now tbh. I even doubted that the CV was hit at all, cause the CV TF seemed pretty fast still. And this was near Truk so no place also where planes could be diverted..

Ofc. the CV was not sunk, reported a month or so later.

Edit: Only 1 torp hit so highly doubtful anyway it would sink a major US CV. But if this hit actually occured the TF would be slowed down or an escort TF be created depending how bad the damage. I noted none of this, so the only "prove" that the sub really hit were the carrier air loss reports.

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 1/24/2016 5:21:09 PM >

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RE: Very improbable FoW sunk CV - 1/24/2016 4:53:24 PM   
Alpha77

 

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Joined: 9/24/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: General Patton

Keep in mind that Japanese Damage Control, needed its own damage control. Heavy Damage and/or heavy fire usually means Sunk ship at some point....GP


Also not 100% sure of that, at least for major combat units. Eg. I had 1 BB or 1 CV heavily damaged, both made it back. You can find a pic of the damaged CV in the AAR "Japan 1st" I send it back to Port Blair, were some sys damage was repaired and then further to Singapore. With heavy escort and ASW planes at the ports on the way.However it is certainly true for AK/Aux etc. ships.. they are very fragile. I had the big Yusen class ships hit by only 1 bomb near ports - never made it back :( Iirc from the Allied game years ago the bigger allied cargos (etc) are sturdier.


Edit: Also on topic, I was setting damaged ships mostly to "cruise" (cause it was said it is safer), however in this Japan game it seems to have no influence (positive, as ships would sink anyway). The 2 major cases above I let them on "mission" speed which seems fine. But can only be coincidence / luck.

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 1/24/2016 5:57:37 PM >

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RE: Very improbable FoW sunk CV - 1/30/2016 12:16:21 PM   
Willaverill

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 12/22/2015
Status: offline 		How about this? Playing as Allies, every now and again I turn FoW off and check the report for the AI Loses then turn it back on. As a sanity check. Last time I did this there was a Carrier listed as sunk by a 10K bomb. I have had no air combat yet with my ships. Not sure if a PA got a bomb hit while on patrol or not, as I did not see a message. Strange. (BTW there were ships sunk by mines on this list) I did have sub contact and 2 torp hits on a CV a few days before this.

Also I get "Phantom" messages that state the sinking of "insert ship here" was incorrect. "ship name" spotted or engaged. Thing is I NEVER got a report of that ship sinking??

Lol my favorite messages are 5 Ships reported close to Channel Islands heading east.

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RE: Very improbable FoW sunk CV - 1/30/2016 1:25:31 PM   
BBfanboy


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From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		Ships that are damaged often sink days later from progressive flooding or fires.
Intelligence gets hints of these ship losses from radio intercepts and makes an estimate whether they mean the ship sank or not. Thanks to FOW the ship name and even the fact of sinking or not can be misinterpreted. Such intelligence estimates are put on the sunk ships list without any mention in Combat or Sigint reports. I consider them very unreliable and ignore them until I get something at the bottom of the Ops report saying "The sinking of (ship *****) is confirmed.

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