Best ,,field manuals" for us gamers?

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Best ,,field manuals" for us gamers? - 1/24/2016 3:22:43 PM

Jakers123

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Hi everyone, I have this obsession with realistic games, so when playing military games, I want to recreate everything as good as possible, but there's a lot of topics to cover, but not many detailed field manuals, some are way, way too simplified, only explaining the general meanings of some words like Retrograde, Exploitation, while some other are hundreds of pages of manuals on how a radio on a kitchen truck in the rear assembly area works. (sarcasm of course, although I wouldn't be surprised that that exists as well)

Basically what I am looking for is something that would explain these things:

- Actual role of different types of battalions/companies, not just their organization (I have tons of manuals on organization, but nothing that actually explains ,,why" are they organized so), mostly I am interested in what tasks is the for example APC battalion intended to do during an attack, what is the ifv battalion's job, what is the tank's platoon job,etc. , from that I would understand the difference between an BTR, BMP, Lav 25, Stryker and Bradley, which I currently can't understand, except that maybe Bradley and BMP are the only ones that fight directly alongside tanks, but I am not sure.

Also, every time I read about offensives, it says that a tank is useful when attacking a hastily prepared defense, but not useful for attacking completely prepared defense, but it never explains why, anywhere.

- Exploitation, I haven't found a single manual that really explains exploitation in detail, in what way are the units marching when doing an exploitation, are they for example going in a line formation across the entire area of operation, clearing every village or in a column formation on the main roads, with only the security detachment going in a line formation,etc. , the only thing I can find about exploitation is again the simplest possible explanation in a sentence or two where it says that a exploitation follows a penetration and pretty much nothing else.

- Location of soldiers, ifvs, apcs and tanks in a formation, for example does the tank go ahead of the infantry or not. I would say yes, but then again it says that tanks aren't used for attacking prepared defenses, so I have no idea what goes where.

There's some other things that I can't remember now, but these are the main ones that gamers need, also if you post something, please say exactly what part of the manual are you talking about, since most have hundreds of pages. If it is a free manual, like most are, just post a link or a name, globalsecurity and FAS have loads of manuals, so you don't have to upload here or anything.

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RE: Best ,,field manuals" for us gamers? - 1/24/2016 6:55:26 PM

Kuokkanen

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SPWAW Depot has training courses that explain some of the things you mention. For SPWAW game, but I make a guess much of it would be compatible with other tactical scale games, like Combat Mission and Battle Academy. If game you play takes a place in Medieval Age and construction of castles is any part of it (Stronghold, Age of Empires 2), read about castles on Wikipedia. If I had read that article when I played AoE2, I would definitely made gatehouses ( = gate flanked by 2 towers). You can also ask things here. I did that, and I remember answer about TOW equipped vehicles: standoff range of 1500 meters; when TOW (vehicle) platoon is retreating, 1 stays on overwatch while others pull out, then reverse roles.

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RE: Best ,,field manuals" for us gamers? - 1/24/2016 7:33:17 PM

Jakers123

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Didn't play SPWAW, but I do play SPMBT, mostly playing around in the editor with third world countries, so that will probably be useful, thanks.
Currently my favorite game is Men of war Assault squad 1 (still have an XP as ancient as that sounds, so..) , but with a modern mod that has pretty much every modern unit that you can imagine in multiple variants, for example M1a2 sep, tusk,etc., even the T90A, Marder IFV and the next patch will have the Armata, but there is one thing I absolutely hate about all men of war games, the range of all weapons is incredibly small, like 200 meters the most, its done so that you would have a better close up fight, but since I am a realism freak it is really bugging me, but ok, the armor model is awesome, loads of units, even without the moded game,etc. Other than that I also played Combat mission Shock force, World in conflict and from the operational/strategic ones...Supreme ruler, all of them (which is why I want to find out the exploitation thing so badly) , Toaw 3 , Darkest hour,etc.

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RE: Best ,,field manuals" for us gamers? - 1/24/2016 11:46:37 PM

Jakers123

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Seriously..hundred views on a forum where most users are hardcore wargamers and only one person that gave an actual reply?

, if no one knows any field manuals, then at least try to explain the questions that I have, because I am searching for them for months, but no luck.

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RE: Best ,,field manuals" for us gamers? - 1/25/2016 12:37:52 AM

Blond_Knight

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Im partial to Handbook on German Military forces.
Or This one

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RE: Best ,,field manuals" for us gamers? - 1/25/2016 7:59:52 PM

mllange

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A wealth of good stuff here:
https://fas.org/irp/doddir/army/

There are a lot more if this is of help.

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RE: Best ,,field manuals" for us gamers? - 1/25/2016 10:17:53 PM

Jakers123

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I know, I mentioned FAS (and globalsecurity) in the first post, there is hundreds of manuals over there, but the question is which ones are the best, since I can't read hundreds of pages from hundreds of different manuals on every possible topic, I mean I could, but that would take ages.

For example the one Blond Knight gave is really nice (second one, I can't access the first one for some reason) , although it is for ww2 and I am mostly interested in the modern times because of the apc/ifv difference, atgm's,etc, but nonetheless its useful.

I also recently downloaded the ,,Mechanized infantry platoon and squad/bradley" and ,,Fm 3-21.8 Infantry rifle platoon and squad" , sadly I haven't got enough time to read everything, but it seems like there's some useful stuff there too, I think I saw some pictures of squad formations which would answer my third question, but answers for first and second question are still nowhere to be found.

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RE: Best ,,field manuals" for us gamers? - 1/28/2016 2:16:16 PM

Poopyhead

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I am retired U.S. Army. I wrote several training manuals for the USACIDC command. In a training manual, every combat task that a given unit does to succeed at its wartime mission is spelled out, step by step, in the manual. A training developer gets the Subject Matter Experts from each field together and picks their brains to get everything right. These are the ultimate "How to" guides that a unit commander must follow for his unit to succeed as a warfighter. When the unit is evaluated during an ARTEP (Army Training and Evaluation Program), it either is a "Go" at these tasks or it is not battle ready, fit to fight.

These are the same type of manuals for the infantry and armored fighting vehicle units.

http://armypubs.army.mil/doctrine/7_Series_Collection_1.html

http://armypubs.army.mil/doctrine/17_Series_Collection_1.html

Actually, the site allows you to read any training manual for all units in the army.

Of course, it's a lot of big books. However, the table of contents in each manual breaks it down, so if you want to know what a mech infantry platoon does to recon an area, then there's a topic for that in the mech infantry Training Manual. The books also have an index that describes terms like Retrograde Exploitation. These are not e-books with a search engine, so you do have to hunt and peck.

I, of course, have not read all of these manuals. As a trainer/developer, I am certain that if you were a commander of one of these units, then these are the manuals you would follow to get the job done.

Das vadanya and good luck!

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RE: Best ,,field manuals" for us gamers? - 1/28/2016 6:33:24 PM

Kuokkanen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Poopyhead

I am retired U.S. Army. I wrote several training manuals for the USACIDC command.

Excellent! Could you write manuals for wargames? Like copy-paste from the thick manuals (you know better than I do) the parts that are most relevant & useful in tactical scale wargames like Steel Panthers series, John Tiller's Squad Battles, Battle Academy, and Combat Mission.

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RE: Best ,,field manuals" for us gamers? - 1/29/2016 12:22:01 PM

Poopyhead

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I can't get Steel Panthers to work any more and I'm not familiar with the other titles. The process for training developer/writer is to know your topic by having the best leaders tell you what each unit needs to do in combat to be successful. So a hypothetical infantry company might have this oversimplified task:

"Take the Hill"

1. Move to the Objective Rally Point.

2. Do a leader's recon.

3. Make a plan.

4. Assign sub-missions to the security, overwatch and assault teams.

5. Communicate the plan to all members.

6. Move to the Phase Line.

7. Implement the plan.

8. Consolidate the hill position.

Each subtask refers to a Team Drill or soldier/leader task that is also spelled out in their Training Manuals.

I don't know if the game manuals would be written in that detail. I did a walk through for assaulting an enemy position in SP, but that was a long time ago and I believe the files are all gone from the Academy.

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RE: Best ,,field manuals" for us gamers? - 1/29/2016 3:22:09 PM

Kuokkanen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Poopyhead

5. Communicate the plan to all members.

I think that is relevant only in those games where multiple players play on the same side: Counter-Strike, Battlefield, World of Tanks, Call of Duty etc.

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RE: Best ,,field manuals" for us gamers? - 1/29/2016 3:32:14 PM

Poopyhead

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In single player mode it refers to being focused. If the security and overwatch teams can't actually cover the assault team, then the player failed to translate, i.e. communicate, the plan into action and the assault fails.

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RE: Best ,,field manuals" for us gamers? - 1/29/2016 9:07:12 PM

Jakers123

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Poopyhead , could you maybe answer my questions from the first post? I'll write the main things actually,
1.What is the role of IFV and APC units and what is the difference between the two in their mission? I know that an IFV is basically anything that has a cannon over 20mm and that they are supposed to fight alongside tanks, while the apc is not supposed to enter the actual battle, but only maybe give fire support from the back, but I don't know much more than that.

and here are the 2 other questions, I'll just copy them, technically they aren't questions, but you'll understand what I am trying to find out

- Exploitation, I haven't found a single manual that really explains exploitation in detail, in what way are the units marching when doing an exploitation, are they for example going in a line formation across the entire area of operation, clearing every village or in a column formation on the main roads, with only the security detachment going in a line formation,etc. , the only thing I can find about exploitation is again the simplest possible explanation in a sentence or two where it says that a exploitation follows a penetration and pretty much nothing else.

- Location of soldiers, ifvs, apcs and tanks in a formation, for example does the tank go ahead of the infantry or not. I would say yes, but then again it says that tanks aren't used for attacking prepared defenses, so I have no idea what goes where.

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RE: Best ,,field manuals" for us gamers? - 1/29/2016 10:34:01 PM

Twotribes

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Apc and IFV are similar vehicles the IFV is simple another way to call it. IFV tend to have larger or more numerous weapon systems mounted then APC and in modern vehicles tend to carry less troops. A BMP and a BTR are different Russian types of apc or IFV. BMP has a cannon and anti tank capability the BTR has machine guns.

IFV or APC are used to carry troops to a battle field but generally NOT to carry them straight into the attack. They support the dismounted troops as they attack. IFV or APC are better for transport then trucks because they have some armor and carry more weapons aboard the vehicle for fighting.

An LAV-25 has a 25 millimeter gun but can only carry 6 troops and is mostly used by the US Marines though the design was taken from a European design.

As for exploitation phase that occurs after you have broken through the front lines of an enemy position. Follow on forces move through the breach and exploit the break to either surround the defenders or drive to specific targets in the rear.

Tanks depend on dismounted Infantry to cover their flanks and prevent enemy forces from attacking unseen from sides and rear.

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RE: Best ,,field manuals" for us gamers? - 1/30/2016 4:01:01 AM

Kuokkanen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Poopyhead

"Take the Hill"

1. Move to the Objective Rally Point.

2. Do a leader's recon.

3. Make a plan.

4. Assign sub-missions to the security, overwatch and assault teams.

5. Communicate the plan to all members.

6. Move to the Phase Line.

7. Implement the plan.

8. Consolidate the hill position.

Each subtask refers to a Team Drill or soldier/leader task that is also spelled out in their Training Manuals.

Case in point from history: Battle of 73 Easting. What # points did the cavalry troops perform, and who did the rest, and how?

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RE: Best ,,field manuals" for us gamers? - 2/1/2016 1:14:20 PM

Poopyhead

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As you may know Jaker, in a combined arms force, infantry, armor and artillery fight together at the speed of the slowest of these. In WW II, the infantry and artillery were lucky to be in trucks and later lightly armored half-tracks. Since then, lightly armored wheeled or tracked vehicles were used. The problem with these vehicles is that the infantry are not able to stay mounted and fight, because the vehicle would just be taken out by the lightest anti-armor weapons. As soon as the infantry dismount, the battle slows to walking pace or the armor simply leave the infantry behind. The Soviets seemed to solve this problem with the BMP infantry squad carriers. The vehicle had more armor and firing ports so the infantry could use their weapons while mounted. Also, a 73 mm smooth bore cannon was in the turret and the infantry squad's anti-tank missile was also mounted along side the gun. Since this was such a revolutionary design innovation, the vehicles were christened Infantry Fighting Vehicles (IFV). The U.S. soon followed with the Bradley and other nations chose their own solution. For example, the Isrealis have a compartment in their Merkava tanks to carry infantry for short distances.

Today, modern armies make use of IFV's and Armored Fighting Vehicles (AFV's) in force packages determined by Tactics, Techniques and Procedures (TTP's). In addition, engineers, artillery and the other branches use armored tracked vehicles so that units in combat teams can easily move scores of miles in a day. Enemy rear area HQ's, SAM sites, ammo dumps and so on are no longer safe from being overwhelmed. A combined arms force is a real bull in the china shop.

That's the advertisement. The real world experience is that IFV's are cramped. A mounted infantry squad is smaller than a "leg" infantry counterpart, which means less combat power in a firefight. Also, if the infantry dismount, then their anti-tank missile system is still on the IFV. Infantry can "go to ground" and practically disappear, but the IFV cannot. An IFV is not as well armored as a tank, so it's either a Great Freakin' Idea (GFI) or a sorry compromise. As such, AFV's and IFV's fight together well when the two train well. AFV unit commanders need to respect that they need infantry to find enemy infantry, but they have to protect IFV's which are not tanks.

1. An IFV is the modern vehicle of choice for mechanized infantry. IFV's allow infantry to move at AFV speed in the heat of battle and fight mounted so that the pace of combat does not slow to walking speed. APC's lack the ability to do this. Since IFV's are a compromise, APC's still show up in combat support units, like medics, command vehicles, etc.

-Exploitation is like that first kiss on a blind date. You can't be told when to do it, you just know when the time is right. :)
In the mass confusion of battle, a commander must always be alert to opportunity. Really good commanders set up their enemy for that one fatal mistake that tips the apple cart over. In North Africa, the British moved into an area and came under artillery barrage. To escape what seemed like a German ambush, the unit commander immediately moved his force towards a built up area that was a good defensive position. Unfortunately, his men drove right into the well planned minefield. At this point the Germans attacked, exploiting their enemy's predicament.
Exploitation is like when a dam bursts. Your forces are the water rushing forth where least resistance is met. You want to be the hot knife through butter and nobody waits. Your soldiers must be well trained to move quickly into the best battle formation for the terrain (TTP). Speed determines if you are in line or column, if infantry or armor leads. You want to keep moving so that the enemy can't regroup. Soft targets like light vehicles on a road or tent cities get quickly pounded into dog food. Hard targets like dug in infantry, get bypassed. Follow on forces can reduce these at their leisure. Time is your ally and you want to keep moving.

-Location of forces on the march.
In the past, an artillery barrage or airstrike of several hours length would soften up a target. Next infantry would overwhelm defenders and engineers would clear a path for armor to exploit. In modern war, all of this happens at once. Lethality of weapons systems causes any defense to crumble. Smart munitions destroy enemy strongpoints. AFV's with dozer blades can push through defensive trenches at speed. Engineer vehicles catapult a line of C4 a hundred meters long over a minefiled and it detonates, blasting a path through in minutes. In the open, AFV's lead. In urban areas, infantry may lead. The world is increasingly becoming one long strip city, and threats can be asymmetrical, i.e., come from anywhere. The unit commander where the "rubber meets the road" picks the formation that he/she thinks matches the threat. Speed is a force multiplier and you have to keep the pressure on.

< Message edited by Poopyhead -- 2/1/2016 2:17:25 PM >

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RE: Best ,,field manuals" for us gamers? - 2/1/2016 1:36:43 PM

Poopyhead

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Matti, at 73 Easting, the battle can be classified as a Meeting Engagement. The U.S. unit was moving at speed when the forward element crested a dune and discovered a Republican Guard formation in Soviet style defensive bivouac. Within seconds, the Abrams opened up. Continuing at 40+ mph, the U.S. combat team engaged all targets and annihilated the Republican Guard force without taking any casualties. Even though the unit was technically Armored Cavalry Recon, the lethality of their weapon systems and the elan of the unit allowed the commander to execute a brilliant surprise attack. The ACR just went John Wick on the RG. ;)

"Crush, kill, destroy"

1. Communicate plan to search and destroy a Republican Guard force somewhere in the area.

2. Cross the phase line.

3. Engage all targets.

4. The RG position was not a priority so no consolidation was necessary.

5. Continue mission.

At one point, a RG with an RPG jumped out in front of an Abrams. The AFV commander had no time to think and ordered, "Fire". The gunner mistakenly triggered the 120 mm main gun as the infantryman evaporated.

http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/gulf-war-20th-the-battle-of-73-easting-and-the-road-to-the-synthetic-battlefield/

< Message edited by Poopyhead -- 2/1/2016 4:42:16 PM >

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Astrologers believe that your future is determined on the day that you are born.
Warriors know that your future is determined on the day that your enemy dies.

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RE: Best ,,field manuals" for us gamers? - 2/1/2016 7:14:26 PM

Kuokkanen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Poopyhead

the U.S. combat team engaged all targets and annihilated the Republican Guard force without taking any casualties.

I have seen video documentary about it on YouTube. According it, one of the BMPs holed one of the Bradleys and killed an officer. Another detail I remember from it is one tank commander playing Ride of the Valkyries through external speakers.

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RE: Best ,,field manuals" for us gamers? - 2/2/2016 1:16:21 PM

Poopyhead

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After 25 years, I guess they have declassified more intel. I suppose that reinforces my above comments on the wonderful IFV.

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Astrologers believe that your future is determined on the day that you are born.
Warriors know that your future is determined on the day that your enemy dies.

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