Oddities of GJS Mod (??)

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Close Combat Series >> Close Combat: Last Stand Arnhem >> Mods and Scenarios >> Oddities of GJS Mod (??)

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Oddities of GJS Mod (??) - 1/4/2014 5:27:06 AM

RD_Knights_X

Posts: 172
Joined: 3/1/2007
From: California
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After playing a H2H GC to the 12th day, Gen Jack and I have discovered some oddities of the mod. Hopefully Cathartes can explain why we are seeing these conditions. I'm going to start this list with a couple of examples and let Gen Jack chime in with others he has noted.

Example #1
Gen Jack (playing as the Allies) was firing at an MG squad from the SS Pz Aulfkl. Abt 12 that was set up in a 3 story building. He had 2 squads that were firing at my MG squad and the best he could get was a Black circle on the MG squad for his firing units. We were wondering if there is something special about the infantry pared with this recon BG.

Example #2
The Panther tanks appear to be virtually indestructible. I have only lost one to tank fire. In head to head duels with Firefly tanks, the Panther has succeeded in knocking out the Firefly.

Post #: 1

RE: Oddities of GJS Mod (??) - 1/5/2014 2:23:02 PM

Cathartes

Posts: 2155
Joined: 1/5/2001
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Re Example #1: Lots I don't know about this example--how far away were the allied squads? were they under fire? did they have Brens? were there any windows in the 3-story building? etc. The MG squad you refer to has no special defensive properties--they're just another infantry unit. As you know, British infantry are under-gunned compared to their German counterparts. Also, the buildings in GJS provide greater cover against small arms fire because they are almost always made of stone and have few windows.

Re Example #2: Yes, they are tough to kill. In a frontal facing duel, my bet is on the Panther. From a data-perspective the 17pdr will penetrate at least half of the front-armor facing values of the Panther, and all of the turret frontal facing values (at most ranges you encounter in GJS--less than 500m). Problem is that you have a greater chance of hitting the hull, and then you have to make a solid hit on one of the facings that are vulnerable. With the Panther's gun, any facing it strikes on the Firefly is vulnerable to penetration.

(in reply to RD_Knights_X)

Post #: 2

RE: Oddities of GJS Mod (??) - 1/30/2014 1:03:06 AM

Gen_Jack

Posts: 860
Joined: 12/15/2007
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Good day Cathartes,

Sorry for the delay in responding, wanted to gather some additional data first.

Re Ex 1: In the example nights posted the squads were about 50m apart, both squads were in buildings. My squad started as a full Bren Section, but got chewed up by the MG. A second squad was a rifle squad. Both had black circle on the MG42, and did not even suppress it at all. Playing as the Germans I have also noted that my MG42s are rarely suppressed. Even tanks seem to have little effect on them unless a lucky shot kills a team member.

I have also noted instances where when targeting with bren sections or riffle squads I get black target circles on German infantry squads that are in hedges, at relatively short distances (between 40m and 100m). I have even occasionally gotten black circles when they are in the open, but this is at longer ranges.

Re Ex 2: Agree re Panther front, but I have been taking side shots with Fireflys, Achilles and 17 pdr AT Guns, to no effect even under 100m. That said, I have recently managed to kill a Panther with an AVRE, though I targeted the ground beside the Panther vs the tank itself) and one Panther with a 17 pdr and one Tiger with a Firefly. Still, I would expect Fireflys and Achilles to have a better kill rate than I have experienced.

Couple of other things: M10s and Achilles often turn their turrets back and forth when aiming, especially when soft targets are around. I think this might be a conflict between the main gun and the rear firing 50cal. Changing the 50cal to an AA gun or 360 gun might resolves this.

Overall targeting is horrible. I have had shots from guns and tanks land 100m short, 50m wide and 100m past targets. The one that really get me is when they go past the target, over a 2, 3 or 4 storey building and land 5m to 10m on the other side of the building.

British flamethrower teams rarely use the FT. They switch to their rifles or pistols.

Gun crews (6 pdr and 17 pdr) often use their rifles instead of the gun to fire at soft targets (squads, hedges).

Playing as Germans, I lost a PzIV to a head on shot from a Tetrarchs. To best of my knowledge this is impossible. I rear shot sure, a side shot maybe, but not a front shot. As Brits I get green circles on PzIVs with Daimlers, though always the other side of buildings so have not tried taking one out yet.

Crocodiles are only available for purchase on morning of first day. After that the quantity available goes down to zero. Not sure if this was intentional.

Cheers

(in reply to Cathartes)

Post #: 3

RE: Oddities of GJS Mod (??) - 1/31/2014 6:00:51 AM

Cathartes

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Joined: 1/5/2001
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Hey there Gen_Jack,
Lots of notes. I'll start by saying that the basic data on small arms weapons, soldier armor, etc. was unchanged from LSA. All the elements you mention were also unchanged from LSA. I think in the end, with GJS/LSA, if players prefer a toned down MG42, it can be done, but they should give you fits. I don't know about the black circles in your particular situation, but suspect that similar situation might be repeated in LSA. There is overall, more cover in the GJS maps, and it's overall more difficult to root out defenders. British have slightly less experience, and this could be playing a role.

17 pdr is rather deadly in GJS, so the Panther superiority might come largely to better crew experience/morale. You can always lower Panther units' morale/experience and this might make the difference.

Agree about the M10s and M10 IIcs, the game doesn't deal with rear-firing turret MGs very well. Can fix to only fire forward or 360 mount.

Regarding targeting: I actually increased the accuracy data (compared to LSA) for all large-ordinance guns firing HE. Overall same as LSA engine.

Will have to look at FT teams. It might be they don't have enough ammo and are always trying to conserve it.

Re gun crews--yes, wish they didn't do that, or wish you could choose which weapon(s) they fire.

Re Tetrarch: some have 2 pdr with Little John adapters, these made the 2 pdr theoretically able to penetrate the armor of a Pz IV. Also, regular 2 pdr seems capable of just punching through PzIV front turret armor at certain places at point blank range (based on the data I used).

Crocs with 141 RAC were sparse on D-Day. After D-Day the few that arrived were pulled back. I tried to mimic this, but they can be adjusted so they are perpetually available.

Best,
Cathartes

(in reply to Gen_Jack)

Post #: 4

RE: Oddities of GJS Mod (??) - 2/7/2014 6:08:10 AM

timoshuk

Posts: 15
Joined: 2/2/2011
Status: offline

Hi Guys,

Hope you don't mind me chipping in. The Crocodiles reappear in abundance around the 15th June, can't be exact about the date. Not sure if that was deliberate supply issue but is frustrating - especially as they would be useful in the battle for Bayeaux. The Achillies are utterly S*** and I hate myself every time I pick one... The 17 pounder just doesn't seem to pack the same punch as the artillery piece or the Firefly and they fold up like an empty crisp packed on first hit from anything. The tracks fall off after driving 10m, the turret traverses extremely slowly, the rate of fire is terrible and they never hit with the first shot, even when concealed. Oh, and did I mention, the crews are cowards. I'm glad I got that off my chest! It can be very stressful playing against a tenacious opponent with such poor vehicles. Timo

(in reply to Cathartes)

Post #: 5

RE: Oddities of GJS Mod (??) - 2/12/2014 2:03:15 AM

Gen_Jack

Posts: 860
Joined: 12/15/2007
Status: offline

Hi Cathartes,

Thank you for the response.

Don�t recall the black circles in LSA, but agree that could be because the terrain in GJS provides more cover. MG42 offence wises seems to be fairly well modelled to me, was more on the defence side that they are rarely suppressed. Maybe also related to increased cover.

Not sure that lowering Panther unit morale would be right. Maybe raise FireFly, Achilles and 17 Pdrs slightly.

Agree that targeting is much better than LSA, still very frustrating, for both sides. Had an AVRE lobbing shells (about 4 or 5 in a row) just (5m to 15m) over a 2 storey building the other day vs hitting the front of the building. Worked out in the end for me though as I took out a HT and inf squad that were behind the building.

Speaking of AVRE, the blast from the gun, not the round, can kill friendly infantry within a 50m to 60m radius of the gun. Understand if right in front, but 50m to side or behind seems off to me, especially when on the other side of a hedge or building. Sometimes the blast from the gun is worse than the blast from the round hitting.

Sounds reasonable re the Crocs. Now that I know I will always take one on the first battle and risk it.

Timo � Thanks re your feedback. Just on last half of the 14th, so I am looking forward to seeing them back in my FP soon.

Cheers,
Jack

(in reply to timoshuk)

Post #: 6

RE: Oddities of GJS Mod (??) - 6/20/2014 12:08:34 PM

col kapa

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Joined: 2/10/2011
Status: offline

Cathartes

After seven months and over 1000 hours we have finished the Grand Campaign-opponent Timoshuk Ger set on Vet British on Green

Observations
From my perspective I have been studying ww2 for over 30 years and playing CC from its inception.
The balance achieved of realism and playability is excellent and I can only thankyou for your time and dedication.
I played as the Germans
The changes to the 88 makes it a much more effective weapon than in LSA and is now well worth picking.
The moral balance works well and even though both of us moaned about certain capabilities of some men and equipment you soon learn how best to use them as infact a real commander would have too.
I feel the Tiger is too easily destroyed on the front, my head echo's with the cheers from my opponent as another Tiger falls victim to a 6 pounder.
Apart from this the detail is good.
My opponent felt the Germans had to many points as on nearly all occasions I could field 15 units
Regards all the comments about tank destroyers (British)they do knock out or damage the Panthers at range. I must agree that at close range they seem confused,slow to fire and hardly make any hits.
The game crashed several times when Ranville was the last map in a turn-this always happened when the time went to 0- se we started pressing truce with 30 sec to go.
The church in Caen seems to have issues with regards LOS-you can hit level 2 buildings from sitting behind the church on the road-apart from this the maps seem great.
To sum up Cathartes should make all the CC games in my opinion-many many thanks
Great mod that has given hours of fun.

(in reply to RD_Knights_X)

Post #: 7

RE: Oddities of GJS Mod (??) - 11/11/2014 6:23:13 AM

STIENER

Posts: 857
Joined: 1/7/2001
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline

Cathartes.....any news of an update to your mod?

along with all my comments on CCS on your exellent mod,my 2 cents..

im at june 17th ...11 days into the mod as allies H2H. line vs line.
im having a hard time holding on at this point as allies in my GC. the german heavy's are in play in a big way now.

1] the allies have way less experience / morale than the germans and i truly believe that is part of the overall problem with the inf vs inf battle. all the german troops are veterans or almost elite and the majority of the allied troops are " seen battle " or "green " troops
the allied inf never gets to survive long enough to gain experince and morale. the MG 42 with its high rate of fire suppresse's the allied inf so bad that the allies never recouver to be able to fire back. in LSA if your suppressed your basically done. steve told us that.
so IMO the MG 42 needs to be toned down a bit and perhaps the allied bren and rifle pen needs to be upped?

2] crocs show up in the 56/50 on the 15th i believe....4 of them.....thats the only BG ive seen them come as reinforcements.

3] the germans do have way too many points in the mod but this is an LSA anomoly that i dont think can be worked around. steve mentioned something about this also i believe. the allies have to be somewhat carefull in the point consumtion especially if they start to lose allot of men and equip in a couple of back to back battles.
so far i have been able to cope as allies but my german opponent has oodles of points and can buy any and as many units as it needs any time.

4] i would play germans on vet and allies on green next time as Col Kapa played, this MAY help balance the game better.

5] panthers and tigers are indestructible. i, like gen jack have not been able to destroy many cats. the hedges [ imobilized and never came back ] killed more panthers than i have in tank to tank fights. even the tigers are 17 pdr proof. i dont no how Kapa is killing them but i cant seem to. the cats go thru my armour like butter.
the 17 pdr guns, firefly's and achilles just dont seem to be able hit anything at any range and if they do it doesnt usually penetrate.
i think giving the allied tankers and the allied inf... better morale is a good start and perhaps increase the 17 pdr accuracie again too?

6] lets not forget that the allies vickers and 3 inch mortor are only availible in the support slots so your going to pick a gun or a tank instead of them in most cases. the german MG 42 and 80 mm mortor are availible in the regular slots as well as the support slots. the allies should be the same as german...vickers and mortor availible in reg and support slots.
this greatly affects the allied inf overall fire power IMO.

7] the german has more 15 slot tank BG's than the allied.[ 3 to 1?? ] this gives the german the ability to have much more equipment in there more numerous tank BG's [ IE: tank BG"s have vehicle and support slots that give them more tanks per BG if they wish ] this gives the german tremendous offensive power when matched with there unlimited points. perhaps a house rule on the number of cats per german BG???

8] the ranville crash...which we had allot of...is because of the tetrach howitzer tank. any time i used one and fired it we had a crash. after i stopped using it we have had NO crashes at ranville.
bayeux would crash if we used an airstrike there. stopped using airstrikes at bayeux and no more crashes on that map.

thanks again for ur great mod cathartes...looking forward to an update.

< Message edited by STIENER -- 11/11/2014 7:28:51 AM >

(in reply to col kapa)

Post #: 8

RE: Oddities of GJS Mod (??) - 2/23/2015 2:31:14 PM

timoshuk

Posts: 15
Joined: 2/2/2011
Status: offline

I have a question for you guys if you are still out there looking in, is there anyway to extend the game clock during the campaign? It is a bit of an anti climax to have to finish off on the 30th if there are still BGs left to fight it out.

(in reply to STIENER)

Post #: 9

RE: Oddities of GJS Mod (??) - 6/11/2015 6:44:09 PM

timoshuk

Posts: 15
Joined: 2/2/2011
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Hi Fighting Folks,

If there is anyone interested, Col Kapa and I have designed an operation based around Operation Goodwood which is a lot of fun to play head2head (Based on real events TM). It plunges the players straight into the thick of the action and is a real challenge for both sides. We usually play with the Germans on Veteran and the Allies on Green.

If anyone would like to try a copy, please let me know where I could upload a copy of the scenario file.

(in reply to timoshuk)

Post #: 10

RE: Oddities of GJS Mod (??) - 8/23/2015 11:01:45 PM

STIENER

Posts: 857
Joined: 1/7/2001
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline

sure timoshuk...I would be interested to see the file and play it. ;-)

(in reply to timoshuk)

Post #: 11

RE: Oddities of GJS Mod (??) - 1/25/2016 9:30:32 AM

timoshuk

Posts: 15
Joined: 2/2/2011
Status: offline

Hi Steiner.

Sorry mate. Just reset my comp back to Windows 7 after a painful experiment with win 10! Can now play my old CC's again.

Would like to be able to send you a copy of Goodwood, does it only accept zips? Please could you point me in the right direction?

Is it worth us playing v6 again or should we just wait for v7?

T

< Message edited by timoshuk -- 1/25/2016 11:01:46 AM >

(in reply to STIENER)

Post #: 12

RE: Oddities of GJS Mod (??) - 1/25/2016 7:45:38 PM

STIENER

Posts: 857
Joined: 1/7/2001
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline

hi Timoshuk
id play Ver. 7.1 IMO its better than 6.0
you can get 7.1 at CCS. I was going to give you the link, which I can do later, but there seems to be an issue at the moment logging into CCS.

7.1 has a separate exe, so you can run 6.0 and 7.1 if you like

David is working on a 7.2....making a few changes to 7.1, nothing too major I believe, and 7.2 will be ready in a month or so.

so , ya play test 7.1 and let us know what you think, so we can make improvments ;-)

you can sent me a zip of goodwood at mmacklam@telus.net please or put it in a Dropbox?

thanks

(in reply to timoshuk)

Post #: 13

RE: Oddities of GJS Mod (??) - 1/26/2016 1:55:35 AM

STIENER

Posts: 857
Joined: 1/7/2001
From: Vancouver, Canada
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http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=82501#82501

heres the link to v 7.1
CCS still appears to be having connection issues tho.
when you get to the thread read all the info there please and enjoy the mod. let us know if you like it and fell free to make suggestions for improvement. ;-)

(in reply to STIENER)

Post #: 14

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