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New to Command - Reassigning multi-role aircraft?

 
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New to Command - Reassigning multi-role aircraft? - 2/8/2016 5:00:52 PM   
Beckles

 

Posts: 128
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: Kansas City, MO, USA
Status: offline 		I'm new to Command, been playing a couple weeks now and it is fantastic. However, I do have some annoyances with it, but maybe I'm missing something. The big one is I can't seem to re-assign multi-role aircraft to new missions once they finish their first. For example, I launch an EA-18 with HARMs and it uses it's HARMs on a target and I'd like to assign it to a support mission to then provide jamming but I can't seem to override the RTB(Winchester) by assigning it a different mission. I can manually plot a course with speed, but this is not a very elegant solution. Similarly, my FA-18's on a land attack mission expend their ordinance the RTB(Winchester), I'd like to be able to assign them to an AAW Patrol mission since they still have AMRAAM and Sidewinders that make them suited for this, even if relatively lightly armed. I can get them to manually go after some aircraft, but I'd rather just assign them to the AAW Patrol mission.

On a less annoying note, I'm surprised how easy it is to shoot down even relatively small and fast missiles, but that works both ways, so I'm okay with it. However, one thing I think is a bit much is how easy it seems to be for Russian aircraft to shoot down Tomahawk missiles with their guns, this does not seem very realistic, especially when you factor in the pilot workload of engaging a small moving aerial target at low altitude.
Post #: 1
RE: New to Command - Reassigning multi-role aircraft? - 2/8/2016 5:23:41 PM   
Skjold

 

Posts: 240
Joined: 9/29/2015
Status: offline 		Regarding the Winchester problem, change their side doctrine to RTB if Winchester > No.

(in reply to Beckles)
Post #: 2
RE: New to Command - Reassigning multi-role aircraft? - 2/8/2016 5:24:05 PM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline 		The Winchester ROE is likely what's causing the RTB unless you're low on fuel. I'd read the manual a bit to get familiar with ROE's and Game options.

Once they're spotted Tomahawks aren't that hard to shoot down. Mostly because they don't actively maneuver to evade enemy fighters.

Mike

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RE: New to Command - Reassigning multi-role aircraft? - 2/8/2016 6:12:37 PM   
cns180784

 

Posts: 447
Joined: 7/31/2015
Status: offline 		Hi Beckles what scenarios have you played so far? and yea when creating their mission just change RTB winchester to no with clicking on mission doctrine and you'll see this option in the ROE tab (the other two being EMCON and WRA).

< Message edited by cns180784 -- 2/8/2016 7:14:54 PM >

(in reply to mikmykWS)
Post #: 4
RE: New to Command - Reassigning multi-role aircraft? - 2/8/2016 6:41:43 PM   
BrianinMinnie

 

Posts: 136
Joined: 5/7/2015
Status: offline 		Sometimes let’s say you assign a Growler to attack with Harms, via a created attack mission, a specific mobile SAM or 2. Once it destroys those SAMs, it will RTB, thinking its mission is complete? If you create a land attack as a Patrol and then manually assign those SAMs, it will, after destroying the SAMs, return to its Patrol Area and not RTB, right? I’m still learning the benefits of specific missions vs patrols, so I may not have it straight yet.

Brian

(in reply to cns180784)
Post #: 5
RE: New to Command - Reassigning multi-role aircraft? - 2/8/2016 7:15:42 PM   
cns180784

 

Posts: 447
Joined: 7/31/2015
Status: offline 		Well yea but from what i've gathered you cant create a strike mission with HARMs as they can only engage specific radar emissions and not the SAM site itself- for that you'd have to just create a SEAD patrol. But what you're saying is true. In a strike mission once all targets are destroyed it will RTB mission over. But what i havent experimented with yet is if not all targets are destroyed and the a/c are winchester but have RTB winchester set to no in ROE...then what do they do? i'd imagine if they have engage surface contacts with guns set to no in their ROE then it would be RTB mission over?

I could be wrong about the strike with HARMs its just i tried a strike mission with HARMs against a SAG that have radars emitting and it didnt work, i had to create a SEAD patrol.

< Message edited by cns180784 -- 2/8/2016 8:17:52 PM >

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RE: New to Command - Reassigning multi-role aircraft? - 2/8/2016 7:25:02 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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Joined: 3/22/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BrianinMinnie

Sometimes let’s say you assign a Growler to attack with Harms, via a created attack mission, a specific mobile SAM or 2. Once it destroys those SAMs, it will RTB, thinking its mission is complete? If you create a land attack as a Patrol and then manually assign those SAMs, it will, after destroying the SAMs, return to its Patrol Area and not RTB, right? I’m still learning the benefits of specific missions vs patrols, so I may not have it straight yet.

Brian


Yeah there is no chaining separate missions but you can add the secondary targets to your initial strike list. If its in the same region than it will likely work fine. Obviously look at Winchester and weapons control settings to make sure you're not expending all munitions on the first strike.

If not you could just unassign and reassign.

Secondary targets will be more streamlined once we get to the advanced strike planner.

Mike

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RE: New to Command - Reassigning multi-role aircraft? - 2/8/2016 7:26:40 PM   
Beckles

 

Posts: 128
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: Kansas City, MO, USA
Status: offline 		Thanks for the responses, I appreciate it!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Skjold

Regarding the Winchester problem, change their side doctrine to RTB if Winchester > No.
Just tried this, btw, I meant to post originally I tested this all again this morning with the latest 1.10 and Operation Brass Drum (which I believe is updated for 1.10), so I have an FA-18 that launches it's Air-to-Ground ordinance, so with the RTB(Winchester) change in doctrine it does not immediately return to base when they are used, but as soon as I try and assign those aircraft to the AAW Patrol mission they RTB(Winchester). My uneducated guess is because they did not originally have an AAW loadout.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk
Once they're spotted Tomahawks aren't that hard to shoot down. Mostly because they don't actively maneuver to evade enemy fighters.
I certainly understand they are relatively slow and flying straight ... but just tested, an Iranian Mig-29A:

10:14:39 AM - Gun (30mm Gsh-30-1 Burst [30 rnds]) is attacking RGM-109E Tomahawk Blk IV TACTOM #3513 with a base-Ph of 70%. Base-Ph adjusted for distance: 70%. Sea-skimmer modifier: -15%. Target speed modifier: -1%. Target size modifier: -3%. Final Ph: 51%. Result: 22 - HIT

That just seems unrealistic. The AA-10's were getting about the same PH as that shot.

The JH-7 (Mig-21 copies) did a bit worse ...

10:25:20 AM - Gun (30mm Type 30-1 x 2 Burst [30 rnds]) is attacking RGM-109E Tomahawk Blk IV TACTOM #3548 with a base-Ph of 70%. Base-Ph adjusted for distance: 59.6%. Sea-skimmer modifier: -15%. Target speed modifier: -1%. Target size modifier: -3%. Final Ph: 41%. Result: 34 - HIT

Just have to try and clear the skies a bit before sending in the missiles ...

< Message edited by Beckles -- 2/8/2016 8:31:10 PM >

(in reply to mikmykWS)
Post #: 8
RE: New to Command - Reassigning multi-role aircraft? - 2/8/2016 7:58:43 PM   
DESRON420

 

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Status: offline 		https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-1_flying_bomb#Interceptors

The British used prop fighters to great effect against the V-1, even when they had trouble catching the V-1 in level flight. Modern jet fighters are faster and carry heavier guns with radar gunsights -- it is not hard to imagine them demolishing subsonic cruise missiles traveling in a straight line!

(in reply to Beckles)
Post #: 9
RE: New to Command - Reassigning multi-role aircraft? - 2/9/2016 2:27:30 AM   
Beckles

 

Posts: 128
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: Kansas City, MO, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DESRON420

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-1_flying_bomb#Interceptors

The British used prop fighters to great effect against the V-1, even when they had trouble catching the V-1 in level flight. Modern jet fighters are faster and carry heavier guns with radar gunsights -- it is not hard to imagine them demolishing subsonic cruise missiles traveling in a straight line!
The V-1 flew at 3,300 feet, that is a huge difference compared to 200 feet for a Tomahawk ... and the fact a jet fighter is fast was part of my point in the first place, engaging a moving target, even one moving in a straight-line, so close to the ground it seems would create significant pilot workload issues that would affect their accuracy.

(in reply to DESRON420)
Post #: 10
RE: New to Command - Reassigning multi-role aircraft? - 2/9/2016 2:30:56 AM   
Beckles

 

Posts: 128
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: Kansas City, MO, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Yeah there is no chaining separate missions but you can add the secondary targets to your initial strike list. If its in the same region than it will likely work fine. Obviously look at Winchester and weapons control settings to make sure you're not expending all munitions on the first strike.

If not you could just unassign and reassign.

Secondary targets will be more streamlined once we get to the advanced strike planner.

Mike
I can't seem to get unassign and reassign to work though ... like I said, the example is an F-18, I actually use a single point support mission for many of my strikes to get the planes where I want, then manually attack. Then when they are done attacking with their ground weapons I can't seem to get them to take an order to go on an AAW Patrol mission, they RTB(Winchester) when I do that. It did work for the EF-18 though on a strike mission, they took the order to go on a support mission and stayed there until Bingo fuel.

(in reply to mikmykWS)
Post #: 11
RE: New to Command - Reassigning multi-role aircraft? - 2/9/2016 9:40:57 AM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline 		Can you confirm that you adjusted the Winchester ROE.

Mike

< Message edited by mikmyk -- 2/9/2016 10:42:24 AM >

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RE: New to Command - Reassigning multi-role aircraft? - 2/9/2016 9:49:46 AM   
Dysta


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Joined: 8/8/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Beckles

The JH-7 (Mig-21 copies) did a bit worse ...


Apologize to my reaction, but JH-7 and J-7 are completely two different animals. Yet it is not surprising that even the fishbed can top-gunning a tomahawk without a use of missile.

You must control the sky as well as clearing the path for tomahawk and/or other land strikes, unless you got TACTOM (stealthy built Tomahawk Blk IV or better) at your disposal.

< Message edited by Dysta -- 2/9/2016 10:52:29 AM >

(in reply to Beckles)
Post #: 13
RE: New to Command - Reassigning multi-role aircraft? - 2/9/2016 9:38:03 PM   
ExNusquam

 

Posts: 513
Joined: 3/4/2014
From: Washington, D.C.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Beckles
The V-1 flew at 3,300 feet, that is a huge difference compared to 200 feet for a Tomahawk ... and the fact a jet fighter is fast was part of my point in the first place, engaging a moving target, even one moving in a straight-line, so close to the ground it seems would create significant pilot workload issues that would affect their accuracy.

Several texts I've seen referring to aircraft tactics in the Cold War fully expected interceptors to be effective against aircraft maneuvering at 200'. Yes, workload would be high, but it's combat flying; the workload is going to be high regardless.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dysta
(stealthy built Tomahawk Blk IV or better)

Where did you get the idea that the Blk IV+ was stealthier?

(in reply to Beckles)
Post #: 14
RE: New to Command - Reassigning multi-role aircraft? - 2/10/2016 7:05:44 AM   
Dysta


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Joined: 8/8/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExNusquam

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dysta
(stealthy built Tomahawk Blk IV or better)

Where did you get the idea that the Blk IV+ was stealthier?


From DB3000:

Tomahawk Blk III or older:
Radar (A-D and E-M bands): -6.6 dBsm, 0.22 sq.m. at front and rear, -3.8dBsm, 0.42 sq.m. at side.

Tomahawk Blk IV (not just TACTOM, actually):
Radar (A-D Band): -9.6 dBsm, 0.11 sq.m. at front and rear, -6.8dBsm, 0.21 sq.m. at side.
Radar (E-M Band): -12.6 dBsm, 0.055 sq.m. at front and rear, -9.8dBsm, 0.105 sq.m. at side.

Fourth Block of Tomahawks suggested stealth coating and low observation configuration, so it gives more advantage to shock-attack than older Blocks.

(in reply to ExNusquam)
Post #: 15
RE: New to Command - Reassigning multi-role aircraft? - 2/10/2016 9:31:31 PM   
ExNusquam

 

Posts: 513
Joined: 3/4/2014
From: Washington, D.C.
Status: offline 		Dysta, you are 100% correct. I was completely unaware that was a feature of the advanced models. I've never seen reference to it by any defense writer.

(in reply to Dysta)
Post #: 16
RE: New to Command - Reassigning multi-role aircraft? - 2/12/2016 6:01:29 PM   
Beckles

 

Posts: 128
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: Kansas City, MO, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Can you confirm that you adjusted the Winchester ROE.
Sorry for my delay in responding, work has been interfering with my ability to focus on Command. ;o)

I did confirm I changed the settings and it helps in some situations but not others. I'm using the latest 1.10 RC7 and I'm using Operation Brass Drum (which I believe is updated for 1.10).

Now when I launch an EA-18 armed with HARM I can have it use those in an attack then assign it to a support mission, that works now and it didn't before.

However, with F-18C's armed with air-to-ground plus 2 AMRAAM/2 Sidewinder they'll go on a mission and use their air-to-ground, they are not marked "RTB(Winchester)" However, the instant I assign them to an AAW Patrol mission they RTB(Winchester) even though they have the 2 AMRAAM/2 Sidewinder and they'd make acceptable aircraft for such a mission with that armament.

(in reply to mikmykWS)
Post #: 17
RE: New to Command - Reassigning multi-role aircraft? - 2/12/2016 6:11:00 PM   
Beckles

 

Posts: 128
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: Kansas City, MO, USA
Status: offline

This illustrates the behavior for example ...

My uneducated guess was because it is marked as having an air-to-ground loadout originally, so when I assign it to the AAW Patrol mission it says "I don't have a loadout for that, I'm going RTB(Winchester)".

(in reply to Beckles)
Post #: 18
RE: New to Command - Reassigning multi-role aircraft? - 2/12/2016 6:43:32 PM   
ExNusquam

 

Posts: 513
Joined: 3/4/2014
From: Washington, D.C.
Status: offline 		In this case, to avoid that, you need to set the Side Doctrine for RTB when winchester to "No" then click the button which says "Reset affected missions". In that case, all missions will inherit the global ROE, and you should be able to do what you want to.

(in reply to Beckles)
Post #: 19
RE: New to Command - Reassigning multi-role aircraft? - 3/11/2016 5:28:52 PM   
mahuja

 

Posts: 107
Joined: 3/9/2016
Status: offline 		Beckles is right - what constitutes winchester is determined by the loadout the plane launched with.

The problem with the proposed solutions is that you can't have said aircraft transition to a CAP mission and then have it automatically return when it's out of amraams.

One solution would be to enable switching the loadout in flight. Not touching the actual weapons carried, but changing what it considers itself to be (and thus when it'll call winchester), and also what it will default to when it comes back on the ground.


(in reply to ExNusquam)
Post #: 20
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