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RE: WitE 2 - 1/18/2016 7:59:49 AM   
RedLancer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Revthought

Expanded map North to include Murmansk, northern Norway to simulate operation Silver Fox and to try and stop Murmansk lend-lease.


As we are using the WitW map Murmansk and Norway are included.......however......using the map to include these areas slows things up and it is very difficult for the AI to play in an historic fashion as part of a Campaign scenario.

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WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

(in reply to Revthought)
Post #: 301
RE: WitE 2 - 1/18/2016 8:04:14 AM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		So maybe there should be two scenarios: one without northern theatre for playing against AI, and one with it,for playing PBEM/server games. There are already scenarios in WitE that mention they are not to be played vs AI or that AI should only play one side, if any.

(in reply to RedLancer)
Post #: 302
RE: WitE 2 - 1/18/2016 1:29:03 PM   
invernomuto


Posts: 986
Joined: 10/8/2004
From: Turin, Italy
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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

So maybe there should be two scenarios: one without northern theatre for playing against AI, and one with it,for playing PBEM/server games. There are already scenarios in WitE that mention they are not to be played vs AI or that AI should only play one side, if any.


+1, to me it seems a clever solution.

Bye.

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Post #: 303
RE: WitE 2 - 1/24/2016 6:16:38 PM   
Revthought


Posts: 523
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From: San Diego (Lives in Indianapolis)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Revthought

Expanded map North to include Murmansk, northern Norway to simulate operation Silver Fox and to try and stop Murmansk lend-lease.


As we are using the WitW map Murmansk and Norway are included.......however......using the map to include these areas slows things up and it is very difficult for the AI to play in an historic fashion as part of a Campaign scenario.


You probably need two AIs that are checked in sequence then, which gets complicated once they start trading units back and forth. The poor mans version would be to "fix" units regionally. Either that, or re-write the AI instead of making changes to WiTE's AI.

I know... AI is an incredible resource sink in your end. I will be happy, I am sure, with whatever solution you come up with.

< Message edited by Revthought -- 1/24/2016 7:20:23 PM >

(in reply to RedLancer)
Post #: 304
RE: WitE 2 - 2/11/2016 4:24:39 AM   
SeriousCatNZ

 

Posts: 49
Joined: 8/18/2013
From: Auckland, New Zealand
Status: offline 		If the only thing they changed were the supply system, it would be an instant purchase for me. I really want to grapple with the core issue of blitzkrieg, i.e. supply, such as you see in the Operational Combat Series (OCS) board wargames.

PS: Hmmm... that's a pretty poor show. I was just barred from posting a link to OCS on BoardGameGeek because it was 7 days within the 10th post, or something ridiculous.

(in reply to SuluSea)
Post #: 305
RE: WitE 2 - 2/11/2016 7:17:28 AM   
SigUp

 

Posts: 1062
Joined: 11/29/2012
Status: offline 		You should check out WitW and its supply system. WitE2 will continue from that.

(in reply to SeriousCatNZ)
Post #: 306
RE: WitE 2 - 2/11/2016 12:23:29 PM   
swkuh

 

Posts: 1034
Joined: 10/5/2009
Status: offline 		Hope that 2.0 stays within historical framework of the era. Trust it will.

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Post #: 307
RE: WitE 2 - 2/11/2016 4:52:41 PM   
RedLancer


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From: UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rrbill

Hope that 2.0 stays within historical framework of the era. Trust it will.


What are you afraid might happen ? I'm intrigued.

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WitE & WitW Dev

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Post #: 308
RE: WitE 2 - 2/11/2016 6:43:21 PM   
swkuh

 

Posts: 1034
Joined: 10/5/2009
Status: offline 		Ah... appreciate being asked.

West Front/South Front variations, technology developments, political changes, if outside reasonable history. Examples of reasonable possibilities: LW could delay things over the Reich a bit; Torch & Overlord more or less successful; Tigers/Panthers/Leopards might come sooner or later; national morale +/-; lend lease +/-; production & resource variations. And the same for Allies. Any variations allowed would have costs/benefits to other factors.

Things unreasonable: Franklin, Winston, Adolph, or Joseph (or respective nations) change their attitudes, gas or nuclear warfare, Eastern Europe political revolutions, Far East variations, etc.

Any improvement to the player interface will be appreciated as well as reporting strength, supply, logistics, population status.

(in reply to RedLancer)
Post #: 309
RE: WitE 2 - 2/11/2016 7:02:02 PM   
No idea

 

Posts: 495
Joined: 6/24/2011
Status: offline 		Better tools for micromanagement should be among top priorities, imho. Simply shuffling support units is a pain. It would be far, far quicker an easier if there were two windows (like in the microsoft OS) and you could drag and drop

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Post #: 310
RE: WitE 2 - 2/11/2016 7:19:29 PM   
RedLancer


Posts: 4314
Joined: 11/16/2005
From: UK
Status: offline 		Thanks. You have no need to worry I believe.

Here's a brief glimpse of an idea we mightconsider. We are currently reworking production to centre on chassis production from which variants will then build. This has distinct advantages in the setting of historical production. Within a fixed chassis production should we allow players the ability to change variant numbers?



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WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

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Post #: 311
RE: WitE 2 - 2/11/2016 7:49:33 PM   
Commanderski


Posts: 927
Joined: 12/12/2010
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

Here's a brief glimpse of an idea we might consider. We are currently reworking production to centre on chassis production from which variants will then build. This has distinct advantages in the setting of historical production. Within a fixed chassis production should we allow players the ability to change variant numbers?


Sounds like a workable idea. Should still take a realistic time frame from the time the change is made to when they are available to hit the field, which I'm sure you will do...

(in reply to RedLancer)
Post #: 312
RE: WitE 2 - 2/11/2016 8:15:10 PM   
RedLancer


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From: UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: No idea

Better tools for micromanagement should be among top priorities, imho. Simply shuffling support units is a pain. It would be far, far quicker an easier if there were two windows (like in the microsoft OS) and you could drag and drop


Great idea but I'm pretty sure drag and drop is a coding impossibility unfortunately.


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WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

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Post #: 313
RE: WitE 2 - 2/11/2016 8:31:52 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Less micromanagement would be a blessing but I fear it will only get worse. What really is needed is a totally new combat model that works. Then build a game round that. But that would be revolutionary thought for these guys.

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Post #: 314
RE: WitE 2 - 2/11/2016 8:55:52 PM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Less micromanagement would be a blessing but I fear it will only get worse. What really is needed is a totally new combat model that works. Then build a game round that. But that would be revolutionary thought for these guys.


Hmm I think that's an old 5 yr old request as we both know.

Just get the combat ratio's right and stop the retreat lose baloney.

The problem is the game was designed around the thought of tring to get players to attack attack attack as Hitler and Stalin did.

Which is why the retreat lose combat model - which has never gotten close to historical loses and has never worked as it forces players to turtle. Because there is no reward for Germany to attack WitE or WitW.

If they just came up with a good VP system players would defend and attack as per historical, which has been what players have been asking for for 5 yrs.

morveal has been tring with To the bitter end and more historical combat ratio in .08

hopefully minus any uber armament bugs .08 will be as close as things have gotten to date.

I can't comment on 2.0



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Post #: 315
RE: WitE 2 - 2/11/2016 9:49:54 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Did you see Timmyab's AAR? Soviet has 9 ID's retreat a Pz Korp that had air support. Just wrong. Morvael explained somewhere that the combat model is biased toward more elements firing and quality means not much. So combat always favors the side with more elements in an unrealistic manner. The problem has always been that it's to easy for the Soviet to push the Panzers out of their hex. Retreat losses aside (thats another story), the Soviet ability to dislodge German units in 1941/42 is overstated.

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Post #: 316
RE: WitE 2 - 2/11/2016 10:10:06 PM   
Mehring

 

Posts: 2179
Joined: 1/25/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton




The problem is the game was designed around the thought of tring to get players to attack attack attack as Hitler and Stalin did.

Which is why the retreat lose combat model - which has never gotten close to historical loses and has never worked as it forces players to turtle. Because there is no reward for Germany to attack WitE or WitW.

So the design to make players attack makes them turtle? Theoretically possible but in spite of its faults, completely untrue in the case of WitE. Turtling is a choice, and a bad one.



< Message edited by Mehring -- 2/11/2016 11:11:09 PM >

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Post #: 317
RE: WitE 2 - 2/12/2016 2:43:20 AM   
timmyab

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Soviet has 9 ID's retreat a Pz Korp that had air support. Just wrong.

Yes it is Didn't stop me doing it though
It's even more crazy to me because it's in open ground. Why no positive modifiers for armor in clear terrain

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 318
RE: WitE 2 - 2/12/2016 3:09:40 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline
quote:

Why no positive modifiers for armor in clear terrain


I can't think of any other game where this attack would be anything other than suicidal.

An act of the truly desperate. Yet in WITE it's quite a sensible attack.

If you think about setting up the attack in a tactical game, like Panzer Campaigns or Panzer Battles it also equals slaughter for the Soviets.

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Post #: 319
RE: WitE 2 - 2/12/2016 3:45:31 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton




The problem is the game was designed around the thought of tring to get players to attack attack attack as Hitler and Stalin did.

Which is why the retreat lose combat model - which has never gotten close to historical loses and has never worked as it forces players to turtle. Because there is no reward for Germany to attack WitE or WitW.

So the design to make players attack makes them turtle?
Theoretically possible but in spite of its faults, completely untrue in the case of WitE. Turtling is a choice, and a bad one.






If I attack and win and the ratio is 1 to 1

If I do nothing and defend and lose the ratio is 1 to 1

If I do nothing and win and the ratio is 1 to 3

you have to be Theoretically, ignoranant







< Message edited by Pelton -- 2/12/2016 12:15:50 PM >

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Post #: 320
RE: WitE 2 - 2/12/2016 3:49:26 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		So the fun begins now.

morveal has the answers but will 2by3 be keep being stuborn?

Yes silly I love to keep misspelling stuffffff to find out who the teachers are

Forumbane

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Post #: 321
RE: WitE 2 - 2/12/2016 6:57:35 AM   
RedLancer


Posts: 4314
Joined: 11/16/2005
From: UK
Status: offline 		Have you ever stopped to consider that what you are asking may not actually be possible? There is more than code at play - there is also time and resources. In 5 years whilst you have identified the symptoms you have been unable to suggest how a 'cure' might be delivered.

If you want to get someone to do something that you cannot do, telling them that they are stupid, stubborn, lazy and biased is not a good basis for your request and crosses an unacceptable line.



_____________________________

John
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

(in reply to Peltonx)
Post #: 322
RE: WitE 2 - 2/12/2016 7:12:52 AM   
Mehring

 

Posts: 2179
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton




The problem is the game was designed around the thought of tring to get players to attack attack attack as Hitler and Stalin did.

Which is why the retreat lose combat model - which has never gotten close to historical loses and has never worked as it forces players to turtle. Because there is no reward for Germany to attack WitE or WitW.

So the design to make players attack makes them turtle?
Theoretically possible but in spite of its faults, completely untrue in the case of WitE. Turtling is a choice, and a bad one.




DoH your as stupid as the designers.

If I attack and win and the ratio is 1 to 1

If I do nothing and defend and lose the ratio is 1 to 1

If I do nothing and win and the ratio is 1 to 3

you have to be Theoretically, ignoranant

Bro your just wrong as GG is, red is and all the other pro people area for the last 5 yrs.

BUT IN MT WORDS THE revolutionary thought for these guys.

Get off your lazy asses and fix the problem or keep being REDFAN BOYS

Love being called ignorant by pelton. He seems to have forgotten that though ratios have their place, war is ultimately an art, that only the artless will drown in self pity at the one sided examination of a problem that appears to favour the 'other' side.

As for 'REDFAN BOYS' I enjoy both sides but generally play Axis, at which I have never lost a game yet.

"Boo-hoo, Gary made it too difficult for me"


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Post #: 323
RE: WitE 2 - 2/12/2016 10:17:06 AM   
swkuh

 

Posts: 1034
Joined: 10/5/2009
Status: offline 		KUDOS @ Michael T & Morvael for the latest fuel exploit and the expected fix.

Wonder how many more there are that are not reported.


(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 324
RE: WitE 2 - 2/12/2016 10:27:06 AM   
SigUp

 

Posts: 1062
Joined: 11/29/2012
Status: offline 		I'm a bit curious just how the relationship between morale, experience and combat looks like. From my (philosphical) point of view I'd suggest a division between morale and experience along the lines of:

morale: impacts the 'stubborness' of a unit attacking and defending ground, determining how many shots/combat rounds are needed before the unit breaks off and retreats. Also determines the number of MP needed to cross into enemy held territory. No influence on the combat performance of a unit.

experience: determines the combat performance of a unit, the rate at which the unit takes losses per shot/combat round and the losses inflicted per shot/combat round.

Along these lines we'd have,

German units: high morale and high experience
Finnish units: medium morale (with bonus when fighting on home soil) and high experience
Soviet units: high morale and low experience
Other axis allies: low morale and low experience (morale bonus when fighting on home soil)

So in effect if we have a German unit fighting a Soviet unit in the early stage of the war, the Soviets deal significantly less damage than the Germans and suffer far more because of the gap in experience. However, with their high morale they can drag out a fight leading to higher combat delays and higher losses when defending. When attacking the Soviets can push back a German unit if they bring enough units simply by outlasting the Germans - with the cost being units at the brink of exhaustion.

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 325
RE: WitE 2 - 2/12/2016 10:36:27 AM   
Mehring

 

Posts: 2179
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

We are currently reworking production to centre on chassis production from which variants will then build. This has distinct advantages in the setting of historical production. Within a fixed chassis production should we allow players the ability to change variant numbers?



If it goes hand in hand with the ability to choose ground unit equipment from a list of historically available/ToO&E compatible elements as per current air units, that would be a great step forward.

While on the subject of ToOE. Are late upgrading units ever going to jump over obsolete ToOEs straight to the latest in stead of plodding through the obsolete upgrade to get to the latest? Can't see any historical basis for this outside of Stalinist/Menshevik "two-stage theory" which isn't even relevant.

< Message edited by Mehring -- 2/12/2016 11:37:51 AM >

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Post #: 326
RE: WitE 2 - 2/12/2016 10:43:07 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

Have you ever stopped to consider that what you are asking may not actually be possible? There is more than code at play - there is also time and resources. In 5 years whilst you have identified the symptoms you have been unable to suggest how a 'cure' might be delivered.

If you want to get someone to do something that you cannot do, telling them that they are stupid, stubborn, lazy and biased is not a good basis for your request and crosses an unacceptable line.




Many many many people have over the years.

.08 fixes the ratio issue.

5 yrs after the fact, it was never that hard to fix in the first place.


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Post #: 327
RE: WitE 2 - 2/12/2016 10:44:42 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SigUp

I'm a bit curious just how the relationship between morale, experience and combat looks like. From my (philosphical) point of view I'd suggest a division between morale and experience along the lines of:

morale: impacts the 'stubborness' of a unit attacking and defending ground, determining how many shots/combat rounds are needed before the unit breaks off and retreats. Also determines the number of MP needed to cross into enemy held territory. No influence on the combat performance of a unit.

experience: determines the combat performance of a unit, the rate at which the unit takes losses per shot/combat round and the losses inflicted per shot/combat round.

Along these lines we'd have,

German units: high morale and high experience
Finnish units: medium morale (with bonus when fighting on home soil) and high experience
Soviet units: high morale and low experience
Other axis allies: low morale and low experience (morale bonus when fighting on home soil)

So in effect if we have a German unit fighting a Soviet unit in the early stage of the war, the Soviets deal significantly less damage than the Germans and suffer far more because of the gap in experience. However, with their high morale they can drag out a fight leading to higher combat delays and higher losses when defending. When attacking the Soviets can push back a German unit if they bring enough units simply by outlasting the Germans - with the cost being units at the brink of exhaustion.


.08 starts to finally address exp so it finally matters not just all morale

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Post #: 328
RE: WitE 2 - 2/12/2016 10:47:53 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton




The problem is the game was designed around the thought of tring to get players to attack attack attack as Hitler and Stalin did.

Which is why the retreat lose combat model - which has never gotten close to historical loses and has never worked as it forces players to turtle. Because there is no reward for Germany to attack WitE or WitW.

So the design to make players attack makes them turtle? Theoretically possible but in spite of its faults, completely untrue in the case of WitE. Turtling is a choice, and a bad one.




No its simple math and we have seen the disaster of german players attacking from 42 on when pockets are not possible.

You can last 4-6 months longer doing nothing but RR set-up this has been proven yrs ago

Old news

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Post #: 329
RE: WitE 2 - 2/12/2016 10:49:59 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rrbill

KUDOS @ Michael T & Morvael for the latest fuel exploit and the expected fix.

Wonder how many more there are that are not reported.




HMM what?

MT has reported fuel exploit after fuel exploit over the yrs and morveal has removed all off them and other people have reported.

Be pro active not just negative, report issues, give feed back ect.

How many have you reported?


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(in reply to swkuh)
Post #: 330
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