Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

How did the Germans do it?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [General] >> General Discussion >> How did the Germans do it? Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
How did the Germans do it? - 2/14/2016 4:04:07 PM   
GaryChildress

 

Posts: 6830
Joined: 7/17/2005
From: The Divided Nations of Earth
Status: offline 		Why were German casualties apparently almost always less than those of their opponents in most battles in WW2? Was it better training? Better leadership? Better equipment? A combination of the fore mentioned or some other factor(s)?

_____________________________
Post #: 1
RE: How did the Germans do it? - 2/14/2016 4:33:59 PM   
zakblood


Posts: 22687
Joined: 10/4/2012
Status: offline 		A combination of all i'd guess

(in reply to GaryChildress)
Post #: 2
RE: How did the Germans do it? - 2/14/2016 6:25:26 PM   
sullafelix

 

Posts: 1520
Joined: 1/11/2005
Status: offline 		There are several books by Dupuy that go into the mathematics of German abilities over the Allies.

It has been awhile, but I believe he worked it to 30%.

He also states the various reasons he believes was the reason behind it.

_____________________________

Windows 7 home premium 64
Intel quad core I7
16 gig
AMD R9 200 series

Di! Ecce hora! Uxor mea me necabit!

(in reply to zakblood)
Post #: 3
RE: How did the Germans do it? - 2/15/2016 12:18:04 AM   
GaryChildress

 

Posts: 6830
Joined: 7/17/2005
From: The Divided Nations of Earth
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sulla05

There are several books by Dupuy that go into the mathematics of German abilities over the Allies.

It has been awhile, but I believe he worked it to 30%.

He also states the various reasons he believes was the reason behind it.


Interesting. Do you happen to remember any of the reasons he gave?

_____________________________


(in reply to sullafelix)
Post #: 4
RE: How did the Germans do it? - 2/15/2016 12:03:26 PM   
Poopyhead

 

Posts: 612
Joined: 3/17/2004
Status: offline 		The opponents the Germans faced were each deluded into complacency by their own strategies. All were negatively affected by the carnage of WW I.

The Polish pinned their defense on action by England and France. After Hitler took over the remaining Czech state, the Poles had too long of a border to defend until the Allies arrived. The Molotov-Ribbentropp sealed Poland's fate.

The French spent most of their defense efforts on the Maginot Line. For the same price, they could have built more armored Divisions than the Germans possessed.

The English thought that long range bombers would win any war. IIRC, Hobart refused to use these aircraft to close the gap in the Atlantic with patrols to spot U-boats. This nearly allowed the U-boats to starve the U.K. while Bomber Command was dropping their loads on empty German fields at night.

Stalin had created an enormous military, but he then distrusted it's leadership. His paranoid purge decapitated the army that might have protected the Soviet Union. Stalin ran the state and thought he could run the army.

The U.S. was the arsenal of Democracy. So we produced 24k obsolete Stuart tanks and even more Shermans long after these were also behind the power curve. Adm King stubbornly refused to use convoys on the east coast, allowing the U-boats to have a "happy time". I hardly think that the Allied merchantmen that were dying were happy to hear that we were building Liberty ships faster than the U-boats were sinking them.

Essentially, and fortunately, the world's three great industrial powers, the U.K., U. S. and USSR crushed the Germans with numbers.

< Message edited by Poopyhead -- 2/15/2016 2:50:00 PM >

_____________________________

Astrologers believe that your future is determined on the day that you are born.
Warriors know that your future is determined on the day that your enemy dies.

(in reply to GaryChildress)
Post #: 5
RE: How did the Germans do it? - 2/15/2016 2:39:16 PM   
Kuokkanen

 

Posts: 3545
Joined: 4/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Poopyhead

The U.S. was the arsenal of Democracy. So we produced 24k obsolete Stuart tanks and even more Shermans long after these were also behind the power curve.

Nicholas Moran says otherwise. Did you know USA forces in Korea replaced new Pershings with old Shermans becouse Pershings [edit] broke down frequently like Panthers?

< Message edited by Matti Kuokkanen -- 2/15/2016 4:05:06 PM >

_____________________________

You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

MekWars

(in reply to Poopyhead)
Post #: 6
RE: How did the Germans do it? - 2/15/2016 3:15:43 PM   
Poopyhead

 

Posts: 612
Joined: 3/17/2004
Status: offline 		The Sherman was a fine tank...in 1942 when it showed up in North Africa. Then it stayed the same tank until the end of the war, so that we could produce a lot of them. Some were finally upgraded to the E8 with the British 76.2 mm gun and some extra armor. Yes it was able to drive for long hours without breaking. However the rubric for tanks, armor, firepower and mobility, were not met with the Sherman.

One Tiger stopped a column of Canadian Shermans from taking Caan.

_____________________________

Astrologers believe that your future is determined on the day that you are born.
Warriors know that your future is determined on the day that your enemy dies.

(in reply to Kuokkanen)
Post #: 7
RE: How did the Germans do it? - 2/15/2016 3:34:04 PM   
Kuokkanen

 

Posts: 3545
Joined: 4/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Poopyhead

Some were finally upgraded to the E8 with the British 76.2 mm gun

Where did you got that info from? Show me your source.

_____________________________

You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

MekWars

(in reply to Poopyhead)
Post #: 8
RE: How did the Germans do it? - 2/15/2016 3:46:56 PM   
Poopyhead

 

Posts: 612
Joined: 3/17/2004
Status: offline 		My reference would be the 100+ books I've read on WW II, but here is a link to an E8 Sherman:

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Tank:M4A3E8_Sherman

Less than 10% of the Shermans were upgraded to E8's.

_____________________________

Astrologers believe that your future is determined on the day that you are born.
Warriors know that your future is determined on the day that your enemy dies.

(in reply to Kuokkanen)
Post #: 9
RE: How did the Germans do it? - 2/15/2016 4:32:46 PM   
sullafelix

 

Posts: 1520
Joined: 1/11/2005
Status: offline 		It was called and "easy8: and was able to knock out even Tigers.

_____________________________

Windows 7 home premium 64
Intel quad core I7
16 gig
AMD R9 200 series

Di! Ecce hora! Uxor mea me necabit!

(in reply to Poopyhead)
Post #: 10
RE: How did the Germans do it? - 2/15/2016 4:41:04 PM   
Jagdtiger14


Posts: 1686
Joined: 1/22/2008
From: Miami Beach
Status: offline 		Personally I like the M18 Hellcat in the US arsenal. Nice gun, 55mph.

_____________________________

Conflict with the unexpected: two qualities are indispensable; first, an intellect which, even in the midst of this obscurity, is not without some traces of inner light which lead to the truth; second, the courage to follow this faint light. KvC

(in reply to sullafelix)
Post #: 11
RE: How did the Germans do it? - 2/15/2016 5:19:49 PM   
Gilmer


Posts: 1452
Joined: 7/1/2011
Status: offline 		I think I read in the book D-Day that the Germans would have their mortars sighted in on their own trenches, so that when they retreated, the attackers (British, Canadians, and Americans) if they used the same trenches, they caught holy hell from the German mortars.

I'm sure they had plenty of little tricks like that to cause as many casualties as possible.

< Message edited by H Gilmer -- 2/15/2016 6:20:59 PM >

_____________________________

"Venimus, vidimus, Deus vicit" John III Sobieski as he entered Vienna on 9/11/1683. "I came, I saw, God conquered."
He that has a mind to fight, let him fight, for now is the time. - Anacreon

(in reply to Jagdtiger14)
Post #: 12
RE: How did the Germans do it? - 2/15/2016 5:38:51 PM   
Kuokkanen

 

Posts: 3545
Joined: 4/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Poopyhead

My reference would be the 100+ books I've read on WW II, but here is a link to an E8 Sherman:

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Tank:M4A3E8_Sherman

Let's see...
quote:

It also has an upgraded 76mm gun

Nothing about 76,2mm nor nothing about british

Does anyone in here know about Sherman E6?

< Message edited by Matti Kuokkanen -- 2/15/2016 6:40:41 PM >

_____________________________

You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

MekWars

(in reply to Poopyhead)
Post #: 13
RE: How did the Germans do it? - 2/15/2016 7:37:31 PM   
Toby42


Posts: 1626
Joined: 8/10/2003
From: Central Florida
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Poopyhead

My reference would be the 100+ books I've read on WW II, but here is a link to an E8 Sherman:

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Tank:M4A3E8_Sherman

Let's see...
quote:

It also has an upgraded 76mm gun

Nothing about 76,2mm nor nothing about british

Does anyone in here know about Sherman E6?


What was the Firefly?


_____________________________

Tony

(in reply to Kuokkanen)
Post #: 14
RE: How did the Germans do it? - 2/15/2016 9:20:48 PM   
sullafelix

 

Posts: 1520
Joined: 1/11/2005
Status: offline 		Firefly was a British Sherman equipped with a 17pounder gun.

This was even a better gun than the 76mm.

_____________________________

Windows 7 home premium 64
Intel quad core I7
16 gig
AMD R9 200 series

Di! Ecce hora! Uxor mea me necabit!

(in reply to Toby42)
Post #: 15
RE: How did the Germans do it? - 2/15/2016 9:28:37 PM   
sullafelix

 

Posts: 1520
Joined: 1/11/2005
Status: offline 		The main points of Dupuy were about training and mission oriented objectives, the latter which is standard now in all armies.

The German word is Auftragstaktik. Literally you are given an objective and a time frame and the troops and you are on your own to come up with your own plan of attack. Instead of following some rigid plan.

The officers and NCOs of the German army were also trained two levels above their grade, at least that is what I remember.

Dupuy said that was why German troops that should have fallen apart, say after the intense bombing of Caen, didn't.

_____________________________

Windows 7 home premium 64
Intel quad core I7
16 gig
AMD R9 200 series

Di! Ecce hora! Uxor mea me necabit!

(in reply to sullafelix)
Post #: 16
RE: How did the Germans do it? - 2/15/2016 9:41:59 PM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline 		From late 1941 onwards the Wehrmacht was on the defensive a majority of the time except for some offensive actions both major and minor.
In that era of technology, weapons still favored the defender and the Germans were experts at preparing defensive areas with mines, machine guns, mortars and earthworks.
When the Germans were on the offensive after 1941 they were cut down like wheat in almost every instance.

Attacking that area meant a lot of casualties and the Allied armies were on the offensive almost always due to Germany having taken such a large swath of Europe from 1939 to 1941.

_____________________________


(in reply to sullafelix)
Post #: 17
RE: How did the Germans do it? - 2/15/2016 9:49:15 PM   
Capt. Harlock


Posts: 5358
Joined: 9/15/2001
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

Why were German casualties apparently almost always less than those of their opponents in most battles in WW2? Was it better training? Better leadership? Better equipment? A combination of the fore mentioned or some other factor(s)?


I think the general answer is that when the Germans were attacking, they were usually against unprepared, less well equipped, and/or less trained troops. By the time both sides had the experience and the updated kit, the Germans were often on the defensive, and defenders can generally inflict more casualties on the attackers.

This is not an iron-clad rule, of course, but then there were also cases where the Germans suffered considerably more casualties than their opponents. (e.g. Falaise Gap)

_____________________________

Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

--Victor Hugo

(in reply to GaryChildress)
Post #: 18
RE: How did the Germans do it? - 2/15/2016 10:26:52 PM   
Mobeer


Posts: 662
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sulla05

Firefly was a British Sherman equipped with a 17pounder gun.

This was even a better gun than the 76mm.


To confuse matters, the 17-pounder in the Sherman Firefly was a British 76.2mm gun. The 77mm in the Comet was also a (different) British 76.2mm gun.

(in reply to sullafelix)
Post #: 19
RE: How did the Germans do it? - 2/15/2016 11:56:00 PM   
marcpennington

 

Posts: 335
Joined: 1/31/2011
Status: offline 		Keep in mind German casualty figures are a bit suspect. One major source (*which I am forgetting the exact name of at the moment, but hope to place in here shortly), argues compellingly that military casualties were under-reported while civilian ones exaggerated.

And as far as equipment goes, Valery Zamulin in his book "Demolishing the Myth" on the Battle of Kursk talks of how the Germans would not count a tank as destroyed even if it was basically a smoking husk and being sent by train to Germany to supposedly be repaired (but obviously really turned into scrap metal. )

(in reply to Mobeer)
Post #: 20
RE: How did the Germans do it? - 2/16/2016 1:01:29 AM   
zombiewarrior07

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 12/4/2014
From: Perth, west Australia.
Status: offline 		The other side of the coin is: "Why the allies won" ?
There's a very good book of the same name by historian Richard Overy, which I recommend.

(in reply to marcpennington)
Post #: 21
RE: How did the Germans do it? - 2/16/2016 12:54:02 PM   
Poopyhead

 

Posts: 612
Joined: 3/17/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Poopyhead

My reference would be the 100+ books I've read on WW II, but here is a link to an E8 Sherman:

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Tank:M4A3E8_Sherman

Let's see...
quote:

It also has an upgraded 76mm gun

Nothing about 76,2mm nor nothing about british

Does anyone in here know about Sherman E6?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnance_QF_17-pounder

You say tomato...


_____________________________

Astrologers believe that your future is determined on the day that you are born.
Warriors know that your future is determined on the day that your enemy dies.

(in reply to Kuokkanen)
Post #: 22
RE: How did the Germans do it? - 2/16/2016 3:13:54 PM   
Ostwindflak


Posts: 668
Joined: 1/23/2014
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		I have had the pleasure of seeing and touching an "Easy Eight" Sherman. There is a fantastic one in the WWII museum in the next town over from me. They also have the last known surviving Pershing that crossed the bridge at Ramagen before the bridge collapsed.

(in reply to Poopyhead)
Post #: 23
RE: How did the Germans do it? - 2/16/2016 3:47:24 PM   
Kuokkanen

 

Posts: 3545
Joined: 4/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Poopyhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Poopyhead

My reference would be the 100+ books I've read on WW II, but here is a link to an E8 Sherman:

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Tank:M4A3E8_Sherman

Let's see...
quote:

It also has an upgraded 76mm gun

Nothing about 76,2mm nor nothing about british

Does anyone in here know about Sherman E6?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnance_QF_17-pounder

You say tomato...


No I don't. You say it was equipped by Americans in Easy-8, and I say that is BS. Only Brits equipped Sherman with that gun, Americans could have tried it and said it's too damn big. And that Wikipedia page doesn't say otherwise. Stop making frak up.

< Message edited by Matti Kuokkanen -- 2/16/2016 4:51:28 PM >

_____________________________

You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

MekWars

(in reply to Poopyhead)
Post #: 24
RE: How did the Germans do it? - 2/16/2016 4:17:25 PM   
Poopyhead

 

Posts: 612
Joined: 3/17/2004
Status: offline 		"Some were finally upgraded to the E8 with the British 76.2 mm gun and some extra armor"

I didn't say who. Chill out.

_____________________________

Astrologers believe that your future is determined on the day that you are born.
Warriors know that your future is determined on the day that your enemy dies.

(in reply to Kuokkanen)
Post #: 25
RE: How did the Germans do it? - 2/16/2016 7:54:13 PM   
Alchenar

 

Posts: 360
Joined: 8/2/2010
Status: offline 		The 76mm M1 gun on the US up-gunned Sherman is not the same gun as the 76.2mm British 17pdr that was used for the British Firefly.

They're different guns using different ammo and with different turret modifications to accompany them.

(in reply to Poopyhead)
Post #: 26
RE: How did the Germans do it? - 2/16/2016 8:00:19 PM   
Toby42


Posts: 1626
Joined: 8/10/2003
From: Central Florida
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alchenar

The 76mm M1 gun on the US up-gunned Sherman is not the same gun as the 76.2mm British 17pdr that was used for the British Firefly.

They're different guns using different ammo and with different turret modifications to accompany them.



Which was the most effective? I'm thinking that it was the 17 Pdr!

_____________________________

Tony

(in reply to Alchenar)
Post #: 27
RE: How did the Germans do it? - 2/16/2016 9:43:16 PM   
Mobeer


Posts: 662
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Treale
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alchenar
The 76mm M1 gun on the US up-gunned Sherman is not the same gun as the 76.2mm British 17pdr that was used for the British Firefly.

They're different guns using different ammo and with different turret modifications to accompany them.

Which was the most effective? I'm thinking that it was the 17 Pdr!



First post here is interesting:
http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/81013-us-guns-german-armor-pt-1/

(in reply to Toby42)
Post #: 28
RE: How did the Germans do it? - 2/16/2016 9:44:10 PM   
sullafelix

 

Posts: 1520
Joined: 1/11/2005
Status: offline 		You would be correct.

The western allies had excellent anti-tank guns by 1944.



_____________________________

Windows 7 home premium 64
Intel quad core I7
16 gig
AMD R9 200 series

Di! Ecce hora! Uxor mea me necabit!

(in reply to Toby42)
Post #: 29
RE: How did the Germans do it? - 2/17/2016 7:55:11 AM   
Rising-Sun


Posts: 2082
Joined: 11/5/2009
From: Clifton Park, NY
Status: offline 		Just like zak said, usually all. They were well trained troops at least most of them and the enemies were poor equipped and not prepare what is coming to them. So fighting toward France and other places before heading to Russia, they mostly became veterans and elites.

Russia lost the most because they were poor and scatter all over the country side.

_____________________________


(in reply to sullafelix)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [General] >> General Discussion >> How did the Germans do it? Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

1.516