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Crotale missiles unable to attack Mach 2+ inbounds (v1.10 RC2 B775.11/DB3000 b441)

 
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Crotale missiles unable to attack Mach 2+ inbounds (v1.... - 2/14/2016 9:10:22 PM   
Sabresandy

 

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Joined: 2/14/2016
Status: offline 		It appears that all versions of the Chinese HQ-7 Crotale are downright unable to attack Mach 2+ inbounds -- that is, unwilling to launch because the target speed is too high, not just unable to hit. Attached is a test scenario where an Indian frigate is positioned to launch a salvo of BrahMos against a defending Chinese Type 052. Attempts at getting the Chinese DDG to fire on the inbounds in self-defense haven't been successful, with the reason that the missiles' 1450-knot speed exceeds the Crotales' 1200-knot maximum engagement speed. (I first noticed this issue the hard way when playing as the Chinese side in "The Tiger and the The Dragon" scenario.)

A disclaimer: I'm genuinely unsure if this is a DB bug, or if it is intentional. If the latter, it'd suggest that the many French and Chinese ships armed with Crotale are virtually helpless against very fast cruise missiles.


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RE: Crotale missiles unable to attack Mach 2+ inbounds ... - 2/15/2016 4:22:28 AM   
ComDev

 

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Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline 		Thanks for your feedback Sandy

What does your sources say about the Crotale's max target speed?

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RE: Crotale missiles unable to attack Mach 2+ inbounds ... - 2/15/2016 5:13:22 AM   
Sabresandy

 

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Joined: 2/14/2016
Status: offline 		Sorry, not an expert on French/Chinese weapon systems, and open-source literature isn't telling me much. But, browsing the other database entries, I think it'd only be logical to at least bring up the engagement speed to 1600 knots, in line with similar missiles like Aspide and Sea Wolf, unless someone finds definitive evidence that late Crotale variants flat-out can't engage Mach 2+ targets. (This seems unlikely since the advertised speed for Crotale NG VT1 is Mach 3.5.) Perhaps also add "capable vs seaskimmer" to late-model ones?

Mind, it'd be reasonable to suspect that there's a world of difference between the 1972 Crotale and the 2012 HQ-7B. But there just isn't much English-language documentation for me to go off of.

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RE: Crotale missiles unable to attack Mach 2+ inbounds ... - 2/15/2016 5:28:51 AM   
ComDev

 

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Status: offline 		Okay could you do some digging-around and see what you find? Non-english sources are fine, we got Google Translate

Fast targets are really hard to nail because the fuzing has to be pretty specialized. Ditto for sea skimming capability.

Agree that perhaps HQ-7B should be better but would like sources to back it up.

< Message edited by emsoy -- 2/15/2016 6:30:36 AM >

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RE: Crotale missiles unable to attack Mach 2+ inbounds ... - 2/15/2016 7:13:20 AM   
Sabresandy

 

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Joined: 2/14/2016
Status: offline 		I'm having a very difficult time indicating the article in question -- even when I do my best not to make it a link, the forum software refuses to let me post, or even indicate indirectly.

The best write-up I could find so far has been Air Power Australia's analysis. Search for their article on the Crotale and HQ-7; there's more information there on the original Crotale than on the Chinese variants--as it indicates, the Chinese have released very little information of substance. But it does appear that even the original Crotale was very effective against NOE supersonic fliers, and that was before the NG upgrade in 1990 that gave the missile a speed of Mach 3.5 and a 35G maneuver capability.



< Message edited by Sabresandy -- 2/15/2016 8:18:21 AM >

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RE: Crotale missiles unable to attack Mach 2+ inbounds ... - 2/15/2016 8:06:51 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		Is this the reference you referring to:
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-HQ-7-Crotale.html

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RE: Crotale missiles unable to attack Mach 2+ inbounds ... - 2/15/2016 9:13:10 PM   
ComDev

 

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Status: offline 		Thanks Not awfully much to make a good decision on, though. Is it possible to dig up more info?

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RE: Crotale missiles unable to attack Mach 2+ inbounds ... - 2/16/2016 4:02:50 AM   
Sabresandy

 

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Status: offline 		re: michaelm: yup, that's it.

re: emsoy: I know, right? I'll try to find other sources if I can, but it'll take me awhile and I'm not optimistic. In the meantime, would you say there's at least enough to merit bumping Crotale up to the Sea Wolf and Aspide's max engagement speed of 1600 knots, and increasing the Crotale NG VT1's missile speed to Mach 3.5? Based purely on comparison, the VT1 is faster than the Sea Wolf Blk I and Blk II, both of which have a max engagement speed of 1600 knots. I know missile speed and engagement speed are two separate things, but it certainly appears that late-generation Crotale should be able to do what Sea Wolf is able to do.

< Message edited by Sabresandy -- 2/16/2016 5:04:36 AM >

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RE: Crotale missiles unable to attack Mach 2+ inbounds ... - 2/16/2016 4:56:57 AM   
ComDev

 

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Status: offline 		Hmm yeah but think those targets are outside the Crotale's role... In any case have bumped the NG Crotale's max target speed to 1600kt (same as Sea Wolf Blk 1) but really not too sure that is correct. Seems it is a battlefield SAM and not an anti-ASM SAM. Also applied NG stats to HQ-7B.

Fair?

< Message edited by emsoy -- 2/16/2016 6:09:48 AM >

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RE: Crotale missiles unable to attack Mach 2+ inbounds ... - 2/16/2016 5:06:01 AM   
ComDev

 

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Status: offline 		As for speed, we still use average speed out to half the weapon's maximum range. There is a new model planned that will use proper boost, sustain, coast phases that will propell the weapon to Mach 3.5 and keep it there for exactly one game pulse (1 sec).

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RE: Crotale missiles unable to attack Mach 2+ inbounds ... - 2/16/2016 5:33:16 AM   
Sabresandy

 

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Joined: 2/14/2016
Status: offline 		Yeah, seems fair. And that'd certainly explain about the speed.

I do agree on the impression that the thing doesn't appear to be designed as an anti-ASM SAM. Research is hitting a brick wall, though. All I can do is guesstimate missiles' relative performance based on what information I have and pray my guesses aren't too far off--not a good approach, but when information is that lacking...

(Incidentally, I wouldn't mind the SAM doing badly against inbounds that are too far outside its parameters--that's to be expected. Or not firing because it couldn't get through an OODA loop before the missile hits, that's also to be expected with older systems. The reason I'd asked for the engagement speed to be raised was so that the ship would at least shoot at the things coming in, never mind that it'd be unlikely to hit. Even a 10% chance of stopping the missile is better than none, after all. Also, it'd make the Tiger and the Dragon scenario less of a turkey shoot, and make South China Sea scenarios a bit more interesting.)

Looking forward to the new missile speed model!

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RE: Crotale missiles unable to attack Mach 2+ inbounds ... - 2/16/2016 3:05:40 PM   
FoxZz

 

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Status: offline 		http://cesane.artillerie.asso.fr/Texte/DocumentsMemorial/5.67.CROTALE_%28FR%29.pdf

This link say that the R440 Crotale has a range of 8 km and 3km in altitude against a target flying at Mach 1.5.

Couldn't find specific infos on the Crotale VT1, but it seems that all its performances have been enhanced.

But the Navy Crotale has been designed to counter AShMs for sure.



< Message edited by FoxZz -- 2/16/2016 4:08:05 PM >

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RE: Crotale missiles unable to attack Mach 2+ inbounds ... - 2/16/2016 3:22:12 PM   
ComDev

 

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Status: offline 		Mach 1.5 is 1100kt at sea level and the db is 1200kt, so should be ok for early gen weapons at least

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