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A question or 2 for the geniuses (genii) here - 2/15/2016 2:47:58 PM

undercovergeek
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1. Is there a difference between attacking with a division of 450 AV and 10 units of 45 AV or is it the sum total of the AV involved. Ive just discovered 16 naval guard units in Tokyo with a combined AV of about 800 and have a juicy target for them - but will the attack be the same as 2 divisions?

2. If my opponent has bombers at 3000ft and an escort at 10000ft and my CAP is set to 12000ft - will my CAP only engage the escorts? I ask because i recently lost the Shoho to swordfish of all planes off the coast of Ceylon - my CAP was set to 12000 and they shredded the incoming escorts, literally to 0 but the bombers just flew straight on and sunk the ship - the combat report shows the bombers at 3000 but the escort at 10000 - do i need two CAPs?

i think thats it, any help gratefully accepted

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RE: A question or 2 for the geniuses (genii) here - 2/15/2016 3:06:07 PM

Lowpe
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1. It depends. Depends upon what you are attacking, and where, against what. In general, most like big units here (easy to have two good leaders than 10). However, AV is highly dependent upon TOE. Naval Guards units lack the ART of really good Japanese Infantry Divisions. Prep can be very important too. AV is not the end all be all.

Smaller units generally don't have the staying power as a larger unit.

2. You need CAP +- of 2-3K of the attackers pre-radar (and even post radar). Always have something on low CAP (under 5K).

(in reply to undercovergeek)

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RE: A question or 2 for the geniuses (genii) here - 2/15/2016 3:08:11 PM

undercovergeek
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thanks for reply - is it more effective to split bombers and escorts this way, forcing the opponent to effectively double his CAP, and hopefully bombing unmolested if he hasnt?

(in reply to Lowpe)

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RE: A question or 2 for the geniuses (genii) here - 2/15/2016 5:36:29 PM

Lokasenna
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quote:

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

thanks for reply - is it more effective to split bombers and escorts this way, forcing the opponent to effectively double his CAP, and hopefully bombing unmolested if he hasnt?

I'm going to give the best answer in the history of all games: it depends

.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It depends on:
-detection time and distance
-stats on enemy CAP (climb rate, speed, pilot skill, commander skill, etc.)
-"soft" stats on enemy CAP: how fatigued are they? Have they burned "ops" (operations points) intercepting other raids that phase?
-luck (weather, actual luck of the die roll, etc.)

(in reply to undercovergeek)

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RE: A question or 2 for the geniuses (genii) here - 2/15/2016 8:56:42 PM

BBfanboy
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Further on Q1 - if you have three regiments with complete that can be combined to form a division you will usually find, after combining, that the division they formed still needs devices to fill out completely. Divisions have HQ support elements and divisional artillery and perhaps flak over and above what is allocated to the individual regiments.

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RE: A question or 2 for the geniuses (genii) here - 2/15/2016 9:34:48 PM

PaxMondo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

1. Is there a difference between attacking with a division of 450 AV and 10 units of 45 AV or is it the sum total of the AV involved. Ive just discovered 16 naval guard units in Tokyo with a combined AV of about 800 and have a juicy target for them - but will the attack be the same as 2 divisions?

You want to search for JWE's response to this. He was quite definitive.

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RE: A question or 2 for the geniuses (genii) here - 2/15/2016 11:31:07 PM

zuluhour
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Don't EVER change that avatar, PaxMondo. ever.

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RE: A question or 2 for the geniuses (genii) here - 2/15/2016 11:43:44 PM

crsutton
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The attack will not be the same as with two intact divisions and your losses and disruptions will probably be higher. But that does not mean you should pass up the attack opportunity. However, your attack will not be as powerful. Remember devices matter and usually any infantry division has more devices that most composites of smaller units. We are talking guns, mortars, MGs or MG squads and to some extent support since divisions (Allied anyways) are fully self supporting by late war. Your average division has heavy artillery assets that a smaller unit would not have. Leadership is another factor. Naval guard units tend to have leaders with less ability. So just because the AV is the same-the attack will not be.

I have seen low flying bombers slip under CAP. But they and their escorts are just as likely to get slaughtered. And, if you are playing a later patch or DaBabes, flying low can be very deadly if there is good AA around. Still, It may be a way to pull off what would otherwise be a hopeless situation.

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RE: A question or 2 for the geniuses (genii) here - 2/16/2016 12:18:05 AM

wdolson
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Bigger units tend to be more robust in combat. The 800 AV unit will probably be able to survive more rounds of combat than anything smaller. All AV will contribute to combat.

Bill

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RE: A question or 2 for the geniuses (genii) here - 2/16/2016 4:51:04 AM

JeffroK
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Ignore AV, what firepower are you bringing to the fight?

10 Armoured units of 45 AV each should whip 10 Infantry units with 45 AV each.

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RE: A question or 2 for the geniuses (genii) here - 2/16/2016 5:06:55 AM

Lokasenna
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Ignore AV, what firepower are you bringing to the fight?

10 Armoured units of 45 AV each should whip 10 Infantry units with 45 AV each.

...Indian/British/Australian/Commonwealth 1943 Infantry units with 45 AV each? Hrm...

(in reply to JeffroK)

Post #: 11

RE: A question or 2 for the geniuses (genii) here - 2/16/2016 2:18:05 PM

crsutton
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Ignore AV, what firepower are you bringing to the fight?

10 Armoured units of 45 AV each should whip 10 Infantry units with 45 AV each.

...Indian/British/Australian/Commonwealth 1943 Infantry units with 45 AV each? Hrm...

Once again it depends. Commonwealth 43 infantry squad upgrades bump their inherent AT value from around 15 to 70. Japanese tank units which dominate the game until then become pretty helpless vs all Allied infantry save the Chinese.

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(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 12

RE: A question or 2 for the geniuses (genii) here - 2/16/2016 4:05:59 PM

Lokasenna
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Ignore AV, what firepower are you bringing to the fight?

10 Armoured units of 45 AV each should whip 10 Infantry units with 45 AV each.

...Indian/British/Australian/Commonwealth 1943 Infantry units with 45 AV each? Hrm...

Once again it depends. Commonwealth 43 infantry squad upgrades bump their inherent AT value from around 15 to 70. Japanese tank units which dominate the game until then become pretty helpless vs all Allied infantry save the Chinese.

It goes to either 70 or 75, forget which. The USMC goes to 55 either in 1942 or 1943, forget which. It's the US Army squads that don't get very good, but they have other AT devices mixed in.

The Chinese remain at anti-hard 5 (maybe 10?) all game. Ick.

(in reply to crsutton)

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RE: A question or 2 for the geniuses (genii) here - 2/17/2016 2:33:48 AM

rustysi
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quote:

2. If my opponent has bombers at 3000ft and an escort at 10000ft and my CAP is set to 12000ft - will my CAP only engage the escorts? I ask because i recently lost the Shoho to swordfish of all planes off the coast of Ceylon - my CAP was set to 12000 and they shredded the incoming escorts, literally to 0 but the bombers just flew straight on and sunk the ship - the combat report shows the bombers at 3000 but the escort at 10000 - do i need two CAPs?

I know this is just a game and all real life actions don't necessarily translate here, but when I can I prefer to layer my CAP. Especially over my carriers when I can. High CAP, med CAP, low CAP, as IRL. More often its just two. Mostly high with some low just in case he's trying to sneak under.

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RE: A question or 2 for the geniuses (genii) here - 2/17/2016 2:44:29 AM

PaxMondo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

Don't EVER change that avatar, PaxMondo. ever.

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RE: A question or 2 for the geniuses (genii) here - 2/17/2016 5:30:38 AM

JeffroK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Ignore AV, what firepower are you bringing to the fight?

10 Armoured units of 45 AV each should whip 10 Infantry units with 45 AV each.

...Indian/British/Australian/Commonwealth 1943 Infantry units with 45 AV each? Hrm...

Once again it depends. Commonwealth 43 infantry squad upgrades bump their inherent AT value from around 15 to 70. Japanese tank units which dominate the game until then become pretty helpless vs all Allied infantry save the Chinese.

Which goes to prove the AV isn't the be all and end all.

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RE: A question or 2 for the geniuses (genii) here - 2/17/2016 9:47:15 PM

Numdydar
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Correct. AE is all about the devices that are contained in a LCU. The AV is just a user friendly guide to provide a relative strength. Try taking a full Japanese division AV around 400 and attack a US brigade of AV around 200 in '44 and see what happens

(in reply to JeffroK)

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RE: A question or 2 for the geniuses (genii) here - 2/18/2016 4:58:16 PM

Dili
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AV is just indicative, device including squad performance matters like others have said, also matters the unit quality exp, morale, and commander quality.

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RE: A question or 2 for the geniuses (genii) here - 2/19/2016 2:26:13 AM

crsutton
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Some American infantry units get a full battalion of Pershing tanks in 1945. You don't see their AV go up but you can imagine the effect of the heavy tanks.

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RE: A question or 2 for the geniuses (genii) here - 2/19/2016 2:52:50 AM

rustysi
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Some American infantry units get a full battalion of Pershing tanks in 1945. You don't see their AV go up but you can imagine the effect of the heavy tanks.

And their lift requirement.

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RE: A question or 2 for the geniuses (genii) here - 2/19/2016 4:10:33 AM

BBfanboy
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Some American infantry units get a full battalion of Pershing tanks in 1945. You don't see their AV go up but you can imagine the effect of the heavy tanks.

And their lift requirement.

Does the game model the bridges that they cannot cross?

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RE: A question or 2 for the geniuses (genii) here - 2/19/2016 8:40:00 AM

Alfred
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Some American infantry units get a full battalion of Pershing tanks in 1945. You don't see their AV go up but you can imagine the effect of the heavy tanks.

And their lift requirement.

Does the game model the bridges that they cannot cross?

No.

Alfred

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 22

RE: A question or 2 for the geniuses (genii) here - 2/19/2016 1:33:36 PM

BBfanboy
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Some American infantry units get a full battalion of Pershing tanks in 1945. You don't see their AV go up but you can imagine the effect of the heavy tanks.

And their lift requirement.

Does the game model the bridges that they cannot cross?

No.

Alfred

I knew that Alfred - I was just kibitzing. Couldn't find a smiley I thought was appropriate.

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RE: A question or 2 for the geniuses (genii) here - 2/21/2016 8:56:00 PM

undercovergeek
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another if i may gentlemen, i shall shortly be taking ceylon as a prize for the emperor - theres quite a large invasion force - is it best to have the carriers in 1 TF LRCAPing the invasion fleet in another TF, or just one huge TF with the carriers within?

(in reply to BBfanboy)

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RE: A question or 2 for the geniuses (genii) here - 2/21/2016 9:58:47 PM

zuluhour
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time frame for one, early war, No, penalties apply. Need specifics, Oh your Japan, .....CAP from Diego.....

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RE: A question or 2 for the geniuses (genii) here - 2/21/2016 10:03:39 PM

obvert
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quote:

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

another if i may gentlemen, i shall shortly be taking ceylon as a prize for the emperor - theres quite a large invasion force - is it best to have the carriers in 1 TF LRCAPing the invasion fleet in another TF, or just one huge TF with the carriers within?

No CVs in an invasion TF!!! Ever!!!

Firstly they only operate at 50% effectiveness in a base hex. Bad news. Secondly, NO!! Your CV running at 32 knots launching planes 10k yards off the invasion beaches dodging landing craft?

You can get by with CVEs in there if you're really strapped for escorts, but I would not recommend it. Those TFs get close to the beach, CV/CVE should be laying off out of CD gun range, not supporting troops with 5inch cover fire. You can put CVEs in the invasion hex in their own CV escort TF. They operate fully even in a base hex.

It's always better to organize TFs as they were in the war, with only a few exceptions dependent on extreme conditions. An amphib TF should have some big guns if possible, a good number of escorts for support and ASW, and shouldn't get too large and unwieldy or it risks collisions, especially in a surface engagement. Although large TFs are inevitable late for the Allies, it's not always ideal.

For an invasion if it's safe to place the CVs one hex off the beaches (if this doesn't risk surface ships running in to engage them) and then you're fine with bleeding CAP instead of LR CAP. Just set CAP to 30-50% as you normally do, at the range you need to escort your strike planes (for the Japanese usually 8, for the Allies usually 7 hexes).

Remember, the CVs still have to defend themselves as well. If the enemy CVs show up unexpectedly you want the settings to be as friendly for a CV engagement as possible.

< Message edited by obvert -- 2/21/2016 11:07:34 PM >

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RE: A question or 2 for the geniuses (genii) here - 2/22/2016 1:34:59 AM

Alfred
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quote:

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

another if i may gentlemen, i shall shortly be taking ceylon as a prize for the emperor - theres quite a large invasion force - is it best to have the carriers in 1 TF LRCAPing the invasion fleet in another TF, or just one huge TF with the carriers within?

And how do you propose to accomplish this impossibility?

Look up what ship goes into which TF and that answers fully your wishful thinking. Japan doesn't have that many CVEs to provide any meaningful value.

Alfred

(in reply to undercovergeek)

Post #: 27

RE: A question or 2 for the geniuses (genii) here - 2/22/2016 4:04:42 PM

obvert
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

another if i may gentlemen, i shall shortly be taking ceylon as a prize for the emperor - theres quite a large invasion force - is it best to have the carriers in 1 TF LRCAPing the invasion fleet in another TF, or just one huge TF with the carriers within?

And how do you propose to accomplish this impossibility?

Look up what ship goes into which TF and that answers fully your wishful thinking. Japan doesn't have that many CVEs to provide any meaningful value.

Alfred