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Penetration/Friendly Fire

 
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Penetration/Friendly Fire - 4/3/2003 11:36:00 PM   
Kirk

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 5/2/2002
Status: offline 		One of the things I don't see in SP is any kind of penetration factor for MG's, and the chance to hit targets that weren't originally targeted.
There should be some sort of penetration factor for MG's that would allow a chance to hit units (enemy or friendly) along the firing line of the intended target hex. It's not realistic that bullets immediately stop when confronted with an imaginary hex side. If I'm shooting at a unit in the open with an MG and I have a guy directly behind the target hex, there should be a chance of hitting my own unit. Also, if I shoot into a hex containing multiple units, there should be a chance of hitting both units. Lastly, if I have a tank that fires at another tank 20 hexes away that is surrounded by my units, shouldn't there be a chance to accidently hit my units? I mean just because a shell misses, doesn't mean it doesn't land somewhere. It just seems that with the multitude of bullets flying around in a typical SP game, some of them would hit things that they weren't originally intended to hit. What is the percentage - something like 10% of all casualties in a war are due to friendly fire? Somehow that aspect needs to be introduced into SP a little bit. Yes it exists for artillery, but nowhere else that I know of.
Post #: 1
- 4/3/2003 11:44:06 PM   
chief


Posts: 1660
Joined: 9/28/2000
From: Haines City FL, USA
Status: offline 		(Capt)Kirk: Try putting your troops in the same hex with enemy, then fire into same hex with tank,art, mg or rifle company and you'll see the results of "friendly fire" I guarentee it.;) :cool:

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"God Bless America and All the Young men and women who give their all to protect Her"....chief

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Post #: 2
- 4/3/2003 11:57:09 PM   
Jim1954

 

Posts: 1393
Joined: 5/15/2002
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		I don't think SPWaW models a fire lane or beaten zone as far as MG's go, but the possibility of collateral damage is there, especially from large caliber HE rounds and bombs, even in adjacent hexes. It usually shows up as massive amounts of suppression, though. Chief is right about accidentally wasting your own guys in the same hex, especially when you use grenades. For that reason I will turn them off if the enemy is on it's last legs, when going for the kill.

:D

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KMC/T

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Post #: 3
- 4/4/2003 12:08:39 AM   
chief


Posts: 1660
Joined: 9/28/2000
From: Haines City FL, USA
Status: offline 		Ditto on the grenades Jim.

_____________________________

"God Bless America and All the Young men and women who give their all to protect Her"....chief

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Post #: 4
- 4/4/2003 7:41:46 PM   
Griefbringer

 

Posts: 50
Joined: 3/29/2003
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline 		Hmmm, there is a point here when it comes to realism, though playwise I don't find it really meaningful - a bullet that fails to hits its original target has a rather low chance of hitting someone else, so the effects wouldn't be that much in a typical game.

And actually the effect exists to some extent, with the small arms fire suppressing everyone in the target hex (friend or foe), and explosives having a chance to hurt everyone in the same hex (or even in the next hex for the really big blasts).

As for the casualties of friendly fire, as far as I have understood a lot of those happened because target was wrongly identified as a foe, and shot thereafter with the intention to kill. Happens really easily, especially if the visibility is a bit limited. This is already modelled for the aircraft (which can easily target your own vehicles if you are careless).

And yes, artillery coming down on your positions by accident is a truely familiar phenomena to me. That is why I have started to call down barrages on the approaches of enemy, in an effort to pin them down before they get too close to my positions.

Griefbringer

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Post #: 5
Penetration/Friendly Fire - 4/4/2003 8:03:06 PM   
Kirk

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 5/2/2002
Status: offline 		I guess I was trying to introduce the penetration concept since it works well in Squad Leader. And since SP is essentially a computer version of SL, I was surprised the concept didn't carry over. If I've got a tank sitting on a city street and there are infantry units straight in front of me at 5 and 6 hexes in range, my MG fire should have an effect on both of them. Bullets don't stop just because they reach an imaginary hex side. It could effect numerous game decisions as one may choose to withhold fire for fear he might hit his own guys. I realize it can happen with artillery and air support, but it should happen with small arms fire as well.

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Post #: 6
- 4/4/2003 8:19:19 PM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Griefbringer
[B]As for the casualties of friendly fire, as far as I have understood a lot of those happened because target was wrongly identified as a foe, and shot thereafter with the intention to kill. Happens really easily, especially if the visibility is a bit limited. This is already modelled for the aircraft (which can easily target your own vehicles if you are careless).[/B][/QUOTE]

Make that paragraph present tence (sp?).

Problem is by no means solved yet - friendly fire, or "blue on blue", is still one of the biggest hazards in combat.

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Post #: 7
- 4/4/2003 8:30:50 PM   
Griefbringer

 

Posts: 50
Joined: 3/29/2003
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline 		Very true Belisarius - firendly fire is on present a huge problem, and I don't really wonder why.

I remember my military days on 90's when we spent time skulking in the forest with guns - it was tough to identifying people, you could just recognize the shape, but nothing else. It gets even worse in the dark - once I stumbled by accident to a squad mate on a night exercise, and just spent a minute pointing each other with guns and trying to figure out whether we were on the same side or not.

Griefbringer

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Post #: 8
fire lane problem - 4/4/2003 11:35:56 PM   
Sturmpionier


Posts: 99
Joined: 4/29/2002
From: Jennings, FL, USA
Status: offline 		IIRC, the issue with 'fire lane' is that the game is turn-based. Their isn't any definite way to know 'exactly' where and when a unit is somewhere on the map at any given time. From what I have gathered, the lack of rounds going through intervening hexes or onto subsequent hexes by mistake is the fact that the whole battlefield is in flux at any given instant.

The way I understand it, movements in a turn happen 'sometime' in that turn and not in any necessarily sequential order. That raises questions about whether splash damage from large caliber weapons should affect adjacent units in a turn when they are moving, but that is a story for another time.

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Post #: 9
Penetration/Friendly Fire - 4/5/2003 2:22:15 AM   
Kirk

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 5/2/2002
Status: offline 		That makes sense. However if both infantry units in my previous example are stationary... Also, that gets back to the basic premise of the game. During my player turn are all the enemies units considered to be moving or standing still? If it's the former then a penetration rule would work. It may not work for opportunity fire, but it should work for my own fire/movement phase.

Maybe I haven't got the specifics right, but the possibility of accidently hitting your own man with small arms fire should be in the game. Even in the 21st century with all the GPS's, radar, TV, etc. there is still an appreciable "fog of war" that allows friendly fire incidents to happen. It will always be there. As long as people keep shooting at each other, there will always be the possibility of hitting the wrong target. I just think it should be captured in the game a little more. Right now I can fire away with MG's, rifles, etc. at an enemy unit knowing full well my guy that's standing in the hex right behind them can't possibly be hit. It just seems odd that's all.

(in reply to Kirk)
Post #: 10
Re: Penetration/Friendly Fire - 4/5/2003 3:41:51 AM   
Sturmpionier


Posts: 99
Joined: 4/29/2002
From: Jennings, FL, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kirk
[B]Right now I can fire away with MG's, rifles, etc. at an enemy unit knowing full well my guy that's standing in the hex right behind them can't possibly be hit. It just seems odd that's all. [/B][/QUOTE]
I agree. That is just one of the quirks of real life we have to give away to the game's mechanics. The best that we get is the chance to hit a friendly if it is in the same hex as an enemy. However, how do we know it is in it at the same time you are firing? Weird.

As against that, if SP were too much like real life, it wouldn't be fun. There isn't a whole lot about real life that is actually a lot of fun. I remember playing a air sim where you actually had to fly the entire way from your base to strike a bridge. It took 30 minutes and I immediately got shot down by AAA when I got there. A lot like real life, but not much fun to play.

_____________________________

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Post #: 11
Penetration/Friendly Fire - 4/5/2003 3:54:36 AM   
Kirk

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 5/2/2002
Status: offline 		In this case though I can't see it altering the game appreciably, other than to make the decision to shoot a little more realistic. One would then need to take into consideration what was near the target hex for fear of hitting friendlies nearby. I just think it would add a little something at zero cost in playability.

If the game were truly realistic there would be no distinction between enemy or friendly forces. When we're shooting, the crosshairs would appear over anything we could hit, enemy or friendly. Then it should give you two seconds to decide to shoot. Then the true "fog of war" would be seen. Throw in some smoke to obscure things a little more and it would get truly realistic. also, they should eliminate the unit writeups when you click on aunit. It should just show an outline of what you see and you'd have to decide if it was enemy or friendly.

(in reply to Kirk)
Post #: 12
foggy - 4/7/2003 8:14:58 PM   
Sturmpionier


Posts: 99
Joined: 4/29/2002
From: Jennings, FL, USA
Status: offline 		Depends on how 'foggy' you want the war to be. Remember, the underlying philosophy behind all wargames is this god-like mentality that one will can control all units. Hence, we get turn-based warfare since no human would be fast enough to command an entire company of troops even if some functions are automated. This is the impetus for the C&C on crowd. I think your suggestion would fit in best there.

_____________________________

"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun." - Ash

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Post #: 13
- 4/8/2003 9:42:11 AM   
Wolfleader

 

Posts: 94
Joined: 10/31/2002
Status: offline 		I've suffered more than my fair share of FF. Usually when my inf advancing with my tanks runs into an entrenched inf unit and gets forced to retreat into the same hex as the enemy unit that attacked them. I usually forget about this incident when my turn comes up until its too late.

(in reply to Kirk)
Post #: 14
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