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Most realistic tactical level game - 3/5/2016 4:01:25 PM

flibby

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Fellas,

As the name suggests, i'm looking for the best representation of real world tactics. I very much enjoy Arma 3 but feel that being the man on the ground, I don't quite get the feeling of ordering around my SBF positions and assault teams etc.

I have Combat Mission which does a reasonable job, and has great scope, but is there anything else you would suggest?

Cheers.

Post #: 1

RE: Most realistic tactical level game - 3/5/2016 4:48:18 PM

CarnageINC

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From: Rapid City SD
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Your looking for a tactical level game...Close Combat series does a wonderful job of simulating tactical combat on an individual type scale. You can see each squad member, see their health, their suppression, the cover. They gain fatigue, get scared, panic and sometimes go heroic and save the day! Plus you get all the goodies, tanks, mortars, arty, anti tank guns and units. If you don't mind the era its a great game to play, especially with other players.

If you want a bit less detailed than the individual trooper, try out Flashpoint series. This is more generalized, you just see icons representing your platoons and such. But it's pretty good at giving a larger scale of tactical combat than Close Combat can give.

Most of the other really detailed games here are strategic in scale, but some of those are quite enjoyable.

< Message edited by CarnageINC -- 3/5/2016 4:50:50 PM >

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Post #: 2

RE: Most realistic tactical level game - 3/5/2016 4:51:49 PM

wings7

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC

Your looking for a tactical level game...Close Combat series does a wonderful job of simulating tactical combat on an individual type scale. You can see each squad member, see their health, their suppression, the cover. They gain fatigue, get scared, panic and sometimes go heroic and save the day! Plus you get all the goodies, tanks, mortars, arty, anti tank guns and units. If you don't mind the era its a great game to play, especially with other players.

If you want a bit less detailed than the individual trooper, try out Flashpoint series. This is more generalized, you just see icons representing your platoons and such. But it's pretty good at giving a larger scale of tactical combat than Close Combat can give.

Most of the other really detailed games here are strategic in scale, but some of those are quite enjoyable.

Ditto!

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RE: Most realistic tactical level game - 3/5/2016 9:07:00 PM

CGGrognard

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC

Your looking for a tactical level game...Close Combat series does a wonderful job of simulating tactical combat on an individual type scale. You can see each squad member, see their health, their suppression, the cover. They gain fatigue, get scared, panic and sometimes go heroic and save the day! Plus you get all the goodies, tanks, mortars, arty, anti tank guns and units. If you don't mind the era its a great game to play, especially with other players.

If you want a bit less detailed than the individual trooper, try out Flashpoint series. This is more generalized, you just see icons representing your platoons and such. But it's pretty good at giving a larger scale of tactical combat than Close Combat can give.

Most of the other really detailed games here are strategic in scale, but some of those are quite enjoyable.

+1

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Post #: 4

RE: Most realistic tactical level game - 3/5/2016 9:47:06 PM

wodin

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Graviteam Tactics: Muis front was released today.

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RE: Most realistic tactical level game - 3/5/2016 10:31:55 PM

Rosseau

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I can't think of a series that took more of my money than CC. Cross of Iron was probably the best. The AI is still pretty much a joke. My favs right now are TotH and CSME. And yes, GT:Mius at $31.50 on Steam. NICE

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Post #: 6

RE: Most realistic tactical level game - 3/6/2016 12:50:16 AM

flibby

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Thanks for the replies guys.

I had seen some stuff about Flashpoint Campaigns - looks very interesting but isn't it more operational? If there's the ability to re-create tactical engagements then that could be very interesting. Although possibly very armour focused.

I did like Operation Star but after a while the UI took its toll on me. Maybe i'll revisit that if they have updated/improved that.

Are there any Combat Mission players here? I like the games but it's expensive to get a decent selection of the games at those prices.

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Post #: 7

RE: Most realistic tactical level game - 3/6/2016 1:11:53 AM

dox44

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yeah TotH and CSME. also like PB:kursk and normandy. and one nobody else likes but me conflict of heroes...FC is good too.

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Post #: 8

RE: Most realistic tactical level game - 3/6/2016 1:38:38 AM

Rosseau

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Yes, we can't forget CoH and LnL Heroes of Stalingrad. Lots of good stuff.

Battlefront does have some package discounts if you don't have a series. However, I have not upgraded CM Normandy as it would cost me $20 for Vehicle pack and $10 for upgrade, and forget the new scenario pack. I have 100+ good scenarios and mods and no way I'm going to risk a 3.0 install screwing it all up.

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Post #: 9

RE: Most realistic tactical level game - 3/6/2016 1:45:50 AM

Perturabo

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You could try Armored Brigade. It's a continuous time tactical wargame set in the same period as Operation: Flashopint. There's a free version for download at developer's site and he's working on an expanded commercial version.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC

Your looking for a tactical level game...Close Combat series does a wonderful job of simulating tactical combat on an individual type scale. You can see each squad member, see their health, their suppression, the cover. They gain fatigue, get scared, panic and sometimes go heroic and save the day! Plus you get all the goodies, tanks, mortars, arty, anti tank guns and units. If you don't mind the era its a great game to play, especially with other players.

CC isn't most realistic. The game gives way too much info. It has magical communication and magical fire support. Spotting mechanics are pretty bad (for example player has to manually look for muzzle flashes and track tracers instead of soldiers doing it. Hell, are tracers even used during day? And then there's a question of AI not being able to do it).
Then there's the famous AI problem...

< Message edited by Perturabo -- 3/6/2016 1:49:16 AM >

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Post #: 10

RE: Most realistic tactical level game - 3/6/2016 2:37:33 AM

Ranger33

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I would say the king of the hill is going to be Combat Mission. Also the most expensive if you want the newer titles. Could just be that I have the most experience with it, so I understand it better. I really wish they would cave in and do a dynamic campaign layer, let you pick your forces and all that. Of course, right now the quick matches against AI are awful so they would have to totally revamp how the AI thinks first.

Graviteam Tactics: Operation Star really appeals to me but I haven't quite figured out the mechanics. There is the new one out today, plus you can get a wide variety of DLC for OpStar on the cheap. Covers several non-WW2 theaters plus more WW2 stuff.

Another one not mentioned is Panzer Command Ostfront. I've not played it enough to give a review but it seems to be a slightly prettier Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin, with the dynamic campaign and force management of Close Combat. Someone else could give more details.

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Post #: 11

RE: Most realistic tactical level game - 3/6/2016 6:26:50 PM

flibby

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I've just got very excited by looking at Tigers on the Hunt. I will watch some Youtube videos for this and make a decision.

It's such a shame that no-one releases demos anymore.

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Post #: 12

RE: Most realistic tactical level game - 3/6/2016 6:56:35 PM

CarnageINC

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Flibby I forgot one other title. The Conquest of the Aegean.
http://www.matrixgames.com/products/313/details/Conquest.of.the.Aegean
I will warn you it can be quite dry to play. But it has all the realism you want. Radio delays, order delay, fatigue and all the supply situation stuff. I don't care for it much due to the boring visualization of it all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

You could try Armored Brigade. It's a continuous time tactical wargame set in the same period as Operation: Flashopint. There's a free version for download at developer's site and he's working on an expanded commercial version.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC

Your looking for a tactical level game...Close Combat series does a wonderful job of simulating tactical combat on an individual type scale. You can see each squad member, see their health, their suppression, the cover. They gain fatigue, get scared, panic and sometimes go heroic and save the day! Plus you get all the goodies, tanks, mortars, arty, anti tank guns and units. If you don't mind the era its a great game to play, especially with other players.

CC isn't most realistic. The game gives way too much info. It has magical communication and magical fire support. Spotting mechanics are pretty bad (for example player has to manually look for muzzle flashes and track tracers instead of soldiers doing it. Hell, are tracers even used during day? And then there's a question of AI not being able to do it).
Then there's the famous AI problem...

Okay, answer me this. What game doesn't give you magical communications and fire support (COTA is the only title I've seen do this)? You can't see enemy units but you can see their muzzle flashes? Seems spot on for realism to me. Yes, even today tracers are used in the armed forces, day or night (10 years as a M1A1 tanker). What AI isn't crap? Didn't I say it shined playing against humans?

One further not Flibby, I never mentioned Gravteam Operation Star do to my dislike. Its a really cool game that I want to love desperately. However the big game kill for me is that any infantry unit, equipped with anti tank charges and weapons, will not use them properly. I have never once seen any infantry/pioneer unit deal with a tank under any conditions. I've had tanks right on top of my dug in fighting positions, nothing. They always coward in the holes. The tank is the be all, end all if there are no AT/TD's to oppose you. IMO, the tank shouldn't be able to spot infantry well at all (based off real world experience, if your not using thermals they are quite impossible to spot past 100m).

< Message edited by CarnageINC -- 3/6/2016 7:00:17 PM >

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Post #: 13

RE: Most realistic tactical level game - 3/6/2016 6:58:52 PM

CarnageINC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ranger33

I would say the king of the hill is going to be Combat Mission. Also the most expensive if you want the newer titles. Could just be that I have the most experience with it, so I understand it better. I really wish they would cave in and do a dynamic campaign layer, let you pick your forces and all that. Of course, right now the quick matches against AI are awful so they would have to totally revamp how the AI thinks first.

Graviteam Tactics: Operation Star really appeals to me but I haven't quite figured out the mechanics. There is the new one out today, plus you can get a wide variety of DLC for OpStar on the cheap. Covers several non-WW2 theaters plus more WW2 stuff.

Another one not mentioned is Panzer Command Ostfront. I've not played it enough to give a review but it seems to be a slightly prettier Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin, with the dynamic campaign and force management of Close Combat. Someone else could give more details.

I have Panzer Command Ostfront, totally spaced that one out. Its a great little game IMO. It moves a bit clunky I think but its solid. I find the AI wanting and not many people play it anymore.

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RE: Most realistic tactical level game - 3/6/2016 7:05:17 PM

rickier65

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quote:

ORIGINAL: flibby

I've just got very excited by looking at Tigers on the Hunt. I will watch some Youtube videos for this and make a decision.

It's such a shame that no-one releases demos anymore.

Someone mentioned Panzer Command Ostfront. There is a demo for it, if you care to try it. The demo doesn't include the latest patch, but it's enough to give you feel for how the game plays.

I'm biased, but I think PCO is one of the better tactical games out there. It's a WEGO system where both sides enter their orders and then the game turn resolves. Right now it is only Eastern Front with Germany vs Russia but I still have hopes that this will change.

But best way to see if it's something you'd like is to try the demo. The latest patch (which isn't in the demo) does add some nice improvements though.

thanks
Rick

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Post #: 15

RE: Most realistic tactical level game - 3/6/2016 7:18:49 PM

parusski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: flibby

Fellas,

As the name suggests, i'm looking for the best representation of real world tactics. I very much enjoy Arma 3 but feel that being the man on the ground, I don't quite get the feeling of ordering around my SBF positions and assault teams etc.

I have Combat Mission which does a reasonable job, and has great scope, but is there anything else you would suggest?

Cheers.

I have been playing the game for several months. It is, IMHO, the game you are looking for. It has the 'just one more turn' aura.

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Post #: 16

RE: Most realistic tactical level game - 3/6/2016 7:39:05 PM

berto

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quote:

ORIGINAL: casebier

and one nobody else likes but me conflict of heroes

I like Conflict of Heroes, but I'm not a fan of its East Front setting. Anyway, it's effectively abandonware, and more or less abandoned by the fans of the game too.

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RE: Most realistic tactical level game - 3/6/2016 9:30:42 PM

flibby

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Thanks guys.

Carnage - I did play COTA and most of the other Panther games. Whilst good, I find the scale a little intimidating. And like you say, there's very little graphical panache.

I really like the look of the videos I've seen of Tigers on the Hunt. Not a huge fan of the idea of going back to a window based game; but that said it is far more important that the game plays well. I gave a lot of time to Frank Hunters WWI game which likewise looked very basic but under the hood it was amazing.

Is it important to have played ASL? I missed out the board-game stage. There seems to be a great community, with maps coming out all the time. That's a huge thing for me. It also appears to cover all areas of the war which again means a lot.

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Post #: 18

RE: Most realistic tactical level game - 3/7/2016 5:29:50 AM

Ranger33

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Because of this thread I decided to take another stab at Panzer Command Ostfront. Doing the tutorial (on Easy and following instructions!) and in less than one minute of game time my platoon of five PzIII's has been reduced to three destroyed, one abandoned, and one routing. The last one never even moved from it's starting point! All due to two 45mm AT guns.

Does that sound right? I wonder if the updates have skewed the balance of the tutorial, it is a pretty short range engagement.

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Post #: 19

RE: Most realistic tactical level game - 3/7/2016 6:20:54 AM

rickier65

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ranger33

Because of this thread I decided to take another stab at Panzer Command Ostfront. Doing the tutorial (on Easy and following instructions!) and in less than one minute of game time my platoon of five PzIII's has been reduced to three destroyed, one abandoned, and one routing. The last one never even moved from it's starting point! All due to two 45mm AT guns.

Does that sound right? I wonder if the updates have skewed the balance of the tutorial, it is a pretty short range engagement.

I haven't looked at the instructions for the tutorial in quite a while, but as you surmise, the instructions were written several updates ago. If you issue Advance orders to the Pz III platoon, you should have more opportunity to spot and kill the AT gun. But the AT gun (as well as other AT units) can certainly cause problems for the Pz III's if they are not silenced.

Thanks
Rick

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Post #: 20

RE: Most realistic tactical level game - 3/7/2016 6:29:09 AM

aaatoysandmore

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quote:

ORIGINAL: berto

quote:

ORIGINAL: casebier

and one nobody else likes but me conflict of heroes

I like Conflict of Heroes, but I'm not a fan of its East Front setting. Anyway, it's effectively abandonware, and more or less abandoned by the fans of the game too.

I didn't like Conflict of Heroes either. What put me off was the I move one unit you move one unit syndrome I found myself in. I lost concentration on what I was doing or going to do. I like to move all my units in a turn unless I am playing checkers or chess.

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RE: Most realistic tactical level game - 3/7/2016 6:33:45 AM

aaatoysandmore

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ranger33

Because of this thread I decided to take another stab at Panzer Command Ostfront. Doing the tutorial (on Easy and following instructions!) and in less than one minute of game time my platoon of five PzIII's has been reduced to three destroyed, one abandoned, and one routing. The last one never even moved from it's starting point! All due to two 45mm AT guns.

Does that sound right? I wonder if the updates have skewed the balance of the tutorial, it is a pretty short range engagement.

That's what makes Panzer Command: Osfront so great is you actually have to think about what you are going to do. None of this throw all your forces at the enemy and let the gods sort them out in your favor. I realy enjoy PCO better than any other tactical game now, even (omg) Steel Panthers. Steel Panthers is a good game but it doesn't have the AI that PCO does. Plus, it's 10x better than Combat Mission series ever was in the AI respect also. Combat Mission is fluff, pretty pictures and never any real challenge to it, even the older series. Great idea just bad design of the AI.

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Post #: 22

RE: Most realistic tactical level game - 3/7/2016 6:36:24 AM

Ranger33

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rick

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ranger33

Because of this thread I decided to take another stab at Panzer Command Ostfront. Doing the tutorial (on Easy and following instructions!) and in less than one minute of game time my platoon of five PzIII's has been reduced to three destroyed, one abandoned, and one routing. The last one never even moved from it's starting point! All due to two 45mm AT guns.

Does that sound right? I wonder if the updates have skewed the balance of the tutorial, it is a pretty short range engagement.

I haven't looked at the instructions for the tutorial in quite a while, but as you surmise, the instructions were written several updates ago. If you issue Advance orders to the Pz III platoon, you should have more opportunity to spot and kill the AT gun. But the AT gun (as well as other AT units) can certainly cause problems for the Pz III's if they are not silenced.

Thanks
Rick

Problems would be an understatement!

I used the Bound command like the tutorial suggests, but it wouldn't have really mattered. Each tank was hit as soon as it cleared the first tree line. First shot was a kill, second shot a kill, then a few bounced off, one of my tanks spotted the gun and got a shot off (missed), then it was killed. I'll try again tomorrow, could have just been very bad luck.

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Post #: 23

RE: Most realistic tactical level game - 3/7/2016 6:46:46 AM

aaatoysandmore

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ranger33

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rick

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ranger33

Because of this thread I decided to take another stab at Panzer Command Ostfront. Doing the tutorial (on Easy and following instructions!) and in less than one minute of game time my platoon of five PzIII's has been reduced to three destroyed, one abandoned, and one routing. The last one never even moved from it's starting point! All due to two 45mm AT guns.

Does that sound right? I wonder if the updates have skewed the balance of the tutorial, it is a pretty short range engagement.

I haven't looked at the instructions for the tutorial in quite a while, but as you surmise, the instructions were written several updates ago. If you issue Advance orders to the Pz III platoon, you should have more opportunity to spot and kill the AT gun. But the AT gun (as well as other AT units) can certainly cause problems for the Pz III's if they are not silenced.

Thanks
Rick

Problems would be an understatement!

I used the Bound command like the tutorial suggests, but it wouldn't have really mattered. Each tank was hit as soon as it cleared the first tree line. First shot was a kill, second shot a kill, then a few bounced off, one of my tanks spotted the gun and got a shot off (missed), then it was killed. I'll try again tomorrow, could have just been very bad luck.

Haven't you ever heard what Napoleon said? You don't send the cavalry in without infantry support. What's he doing? What's Ney doing?

My infantry is always in front of my tanks looking for those anti tank guns. Less costly to lose a few men than it is a tank.

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Post #: 24

RE: Most realistic tactical level game - 3/7/2016 7:16:59 AM

Ranger33

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

Haven't you ever heard what Napoleon said? You don't send the cavalry in without infantry support. What's he doing? What's Ney doing?

My infantry is always in front of my tanks looking for those anti tank guns. Less costly to lose a few men than it is a tank.

Well sure, that's what I would normally do, send some infantry up to the trees to have a look around first. But seeing as how this was the tutorial mission I didn't figure it would even be possible to lose an entire tank platoon in less than two turns, particularly since I did exactly what the tutorial guide told me to do!

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Post #: 25

RE: Most realistic tactical level game - 3/7/2016 12:10:54 PM

Erik Rutins

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ranger33
Because of this thread I decided to take another stab at Panzer Command Ostfront. Doing the tutorial (on Easy and following instructions!) and in less than one minute of game time my platoon of five PzIII's has been reduced to three destroyed, one abandoned, and one routing. The last one never even moved from it's starting point! All due to two 45mm AT guns.

Does that sound right? I wonder if the updates have skewed the balance of the tutorial, it is a pretty short range engagement.

Did you try the demo for Ostfront or the much older Winterstorm?

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Post #: 26

RE: Most realistic tactical level game - 3/7/2016 2:09:29 PM

aaatoysandmore

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ranger33
Because of this thread I decided to take another stab at Panzer Command Ostfront. Doing the tutorial (on Easy and following instructions!) and in less than one minute of game time my platoon of five PzIII's has been reduced to three destroyed, one abandoned, and one routing. The last one never even moved from it's starting point! All due to two 45mm AT guns.

Does that sound right? I wonder if the updates have skewed the balance of the tutorial, it is a pretty short range engagement.

Did you try the demo for Ostfront or the much older Winterstorm?

Please don't dumb it down on one post like this. It's a great game as it is and the AI is superb.

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Post #: 27

RE: Most realistic tactical level game - 3/7/2016 2:23:30 PM

Alan Sharif

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I have to add my voice in support of PC:Ostfront. One of the finest games made IMO. The patches have improved it over the years. It is a game that REALLY makes you have to think about tactics. As someone else stated, you cannot just send your units forward and hope for the best. Well actually, you can, but you will lose the scenario in very short order. My favourite tactical game.

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Post #: 28

RE: Most realistic tactical level game - 3/7/2016 2:47:51 PM

Ranger33

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ranger33
Because of this thread I decided to take another stab at Panzer Command Ostfront. Doing the tutorial (on Easy and following instructions!) and in less than one minute of game time my platoon of five PzIII's has been reduced to three destroyed, one abandoned, and one routing. The last one never even moved from it's starting point! All due to two 45mm AT guns.

Does that sound right? I wonder if the updates have skewed the balance of the tutorial, it is a pretty short range engagement.

Did you try the demo for Ostfront or the much older Winterstorm?

This is the full game of PC:O, fully updated. Just for fun, the situation, we didn't make it very far:

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Post #: 29

RE: Most realistic tactical level game - 3/7/2016 4:27:09 PM

Kuokkanen

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I have vague recollection about games that are commercial versions of simulations used to train military officers. I don't remember any titles nor do I want to go through my archives (20 years worth of magazines). But I do remember that those games, though realistic and accurate, aren't exactly the most playable.

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Post #: 30