RE: Turn 3: 3-9 July 1941

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RE: Turn 3: 3-9 July 1941 - 3/8/2016 8:42:22 PM

STEF78

Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline

Some thought about the early turns:
- Loki is a very skilled russian player, hard to grasp, well aware of the german abilities
- One FBD less and 20 MP for HQBU is a huge change

- Why do leaders loose abilities when they are used to a new job? Weiss inf rating was reduced from 8 to 7! German leader's ability is a key on the long term!

- Air forces look effectively stronger than before

That's all folks!

(in reply to Powloon)

Post #: 31

RE: Turn 3: 3-9 July 1941 - 3/8/2016 10:41:29 PM

loki100

Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

I think that Sillyflower's model is exceptionally hard to defend against. I can see how you become tempted not to pull back (which seemed to happen to Brian) and then get caught out.

Thank you. I devised it specifically to deal with Brian's very aggressive defence strategy that had discomfited me in our earlier abortive starts. It is also necessary to some extent to retain mobility (it's that last unit with lots of MPs that makes the successful pocket) because I've never used any fuel exploits. I rarely played as German, and never understood any of them before they were stopped so I can't claim any moral credit for this!

Its very methodical which is one of the things that appealed, but can see how it was a fit to a given playstyle. Risk against someone who doesn't hang around is that you are too slow in beginning the serious cull of the Red Army? Tend to find even a couple of turns of unchecked growth can be very hard to bring back down to size.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powloon

Your opponent really doesn't believe in flank security does he Nice moves cutting off those spearheads! At the very least that is going to start getting inside his head and perhaps make him more cautious which would be a minor victory in its own right.

From my (limited) experience it seems possible to move panzer group 1 SE fast for the first couple of turns and then use the Romanian rail to resupply which then allows for another 2 turns at more or less full movement. So I would guess he will have to pause in the South next turn but I have been wrong before

Another thing that stands out from your stats last turn is you seem to have a lot of planes? I'm guessing you didn't have an absolute massacre on the first turn?

In a way what Stef78 has done is the opposite of Sillyflower - it certainly made me fall back much more radically and quickly than my usual approach. But last turn (8) was the first hint that Germans may have gone too far/too fast - I need to summon up the courage to open the T9 that has just arrived

I think that is close to the approach Stef must have used, I think he managed to eke out a substantial degree of mobility over five turns (so again more than I've seen in recent games)

Don't think he put a lot of effort into the T1 turkey shoot. I lost 2,499 on the ground. I think he was saving his 'air-miles' to pound my ground units (there is an awful lot of interdiction going on too). Oddly .08 may push appreciation of the T1 bombing strategy either way.

I've often taken the view that wrecking the I-/S- series rubbish is optional. And now there is a real benefit to committing your airpower to optimise the damage to the Red Army in the opening turns. So that may argue for less effort. On the other hand, I'm using the I-rubbish (even the biplanes) simply for air attrition. Damaged planes feed into lower squadron morale, so that may argue that maximising the T1 cull is a better strategy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: STEF78

Some thought about the early turns:
- Loki is a very skilled russian player, hard to grasp, well aware of the german abilities
- One FBD less and 20 MP for HQBU is a huge change
- Why do leaders loose abilities when they are used to a new job? Weiss inf rating was reduced from 8 to 7! German leader's ability is a key on the long term!
- Air forces look effectively stronger than before

That's all folks!

You've forced me into a different approach, not least since you are threatening so much industry I'm abandoning what is lost on the grounds there is no use losing troops to try and save what is already gone. So my counterbalance is to try and lose less (and create cats cradles around the key cities in the centre of the map) so as to cope with a weaker industrial base.

As above to Powloon, I'm using the VVS far more aggressively than I have done before. Can't really get a grip on the AA deployments till I have the arms pts issue under control, so that is the only tool to weaken/attrite the Luftwaffe. I reckon even the I-153s have some value.

_____________________________

(in reply to STEF78)

Post #: 32

RE: Turn 3: 3-9 July 1941 - 3/9/2016 10:35:03 AM

sillyflower

Posts: 3509
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Back in Blighty
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

I think that Sillyflower's model is exceptionally hard to defend against. I can see how you become tempted not to pull back (which seemed to happen to Brian) and then get caught out.

Thank you. I devised it specifically to deal with Brian's very aggressive defence strategy that had discomfited me in our earlier abortive starts. It is also necessary to some extent to retain mobility (it's that last unit with lots of MPs that makes the successful pocket) because I've never used any fuel exploits. I rarely played as German, and never understood any of them before they were stopped so I can't claim any moral credit for this!

Its very methodical which is one of the things that appealed, but can see how it was a fit to a given playstyle. Risk against someone who doesn't hang around is that you are too slow in beginning the serious cull of the Red Army? Tend to find even a couple of turns of unchecked growth can be very hard to bring back down to size.

Stef is french so plays with style and l'audace. How you do things seems to be more important here in France than elsewhere - which I mean as a compliment. They are always fun to play as I remember from what I think was the first ever miniatures wargames convention in Paris about 35 years ago. 3 of us went over from England and had a fantastic time - not least because cold-hearted english method crushed french flair and elan in every game. [In fairness we were all far more experienced than they were and the rules they used partly originated in our wargames club

].

@ Stef - do you know how I could find out if there is a wargames club in Tours or somewhere else near here that plays historical wargames with miniatures?

< Message edited by sillyflower -- 3/9/2016 11:07:00 AM >

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(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 33

RE: Turn 3: 3-9 July 1941 - 3/10/2016 10:26:13 AM

Powloon

Posts: 137
Joined: 10/12/2006
Status: offline

I've been using the Sillyflower model (or my poor imitation of it anyway

) against the AI. The poor AI cannot seem to cope. Whilst a human would be leery of placing units in front of a combination of infantry and fuelled up panzers the AI can't seem to help itself

Anyway back to Loki's excellent AAR!

< Message edited by Powloon -- 3/10/2016 10:27:12 AM >

(in reply to sillyflower)

Post #: 34

RE: Turn 3: 3-9 July 1941 - 3/11/2016 7:21:57 AM

STEF78

Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower
@ Stef - do you know how I could find out if there is a wargames club in Tours or somewhere else near here that plays historical wargames with miniatures?

PM sent

(in reply to sillyflower)

Post #: 35

RE: Turn 3: 3-9 July 1941 - 3/12/2016 7:40:56 AM

loki100

Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

...

Stef is french so plays with style and l'audace. ...

he does indeed, its very disturbing to my peace of mind to see more of the Rodina disappear each time I get a new turn back

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(in reply to sillyflower)

Post #: 36

Turn 5: 17 � 23 July 1941 - 3/12/2016 7:42:49 AM

loki100

Posts: 10920
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From: Utlima Thule
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Turn 5: 17 � 23 July 1941

In the south, there seems to be no stopping the Panzers. Not really sure where their fuel is coming from but I suspect that is the industry at Dnepropetrovsk lost. Overall despite Stef78's rapid advance I am on schedule for withdrawals and quite prepared to lose at least two of the main industrial centres.

In the centre, the Germans move again generating a pocket on the Dneipr. In my turn I manage to break the pocket and cut off some of the German units.

I've marked on the map where I broke the pocket.

Less progress in the north. Not sure if this is lack of fuel or the better defensive terrain. Anyway I pull back to my prebuilt defences closer to Leningrad. With hindsight I think I gave up too much, too quickly here but I am short of rail capacity and finding it hard to reinforce this sector.

Here's the VP situation � it appears as if I am losing

In the south, I respond in the traditional way. At some stage constantly cutting their supply lines has to hurt?

I'm still worried about a lunge north towards Kharkov. The T-34s and trucks have gone but the rest of the industry is still there.

OOB

Losses remain fairly light. The Germans lost 17,000 men (6,000 kia), 64 tanks and 31 planes. I lost 150,000 men (14,000 kia and 120,000 prisoners), 1020 tanks and 60 planes.

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(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 37

RE: Turn 5: 17 � 23 July 1941 - 3/12/2016 2:13:03 PM

STEF78

Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

Turn 5: 17 � 23 July 1941

With hindsight I think I gave up too much, too quickly here but I am short of rail capacity and finding it hard to reinforce this sector.

Agreed, I was surprised with this withdrawal but it'a hard for the russian to know if the german has or hasn't a full PzK with 50 MP

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 38

RE: Turn 5: 17 � 23 July 1941 - 3/12/2016 6:53:13 PM

Peltonx

Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline

He can fly in fuel to the panzers, BUT he is end of his chain until turn 7.

He can still hang back withen HQBU range with a Corp or 2 and nail you next turn.

I chain my HQBU's

1 turn 3, 1 turn 4, 1 turn 5 and fly fuel into the Corp that at the front.

If he has an extra HQ he can pull back a small PC and do one turn 6

Which is how I get to Kharkov or Stalino turn 7 if Russia player runs and does not screen.

D-Town turn 5 is really normal if hes rotating HQ's right.

If you play me expect the same, but I never let my Panzers get cut off other then mybee the lead raider MoT division

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(in reply to STEF78)

Post #: 39

RE: Turn 3: 3-9 July 1941 - 3/12/2016 7:46:48 PM

Wuffer

Posts: 402
Joined: 6/16/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

...

Stef is french so plays with style and l'audace. ...

he does indeed, its very disturbing to my peace of mind to see more of the Rodina disappear each time I get a new turn back

it worked. and very fast.

both the north and the center appears quite weak in the defense.
But I wonder where his bulk of infantry is? Guessing it's on the way to Moscwa?

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 40

RE: Turn 3: 3-9 July 1941 - 3/13/2016 7:51:46 AM

loki100

Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wuffer

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

...

Stef is french so plays with style and l'audace. ...

he does indeed, its very disturbing to my peace of mind to see more of the Rodina disappear each time I get a new turn back

it worked. and very fast.

both the north and the center appears quite weak in the defense.
But I wonder where his bulk of infantry is? Guessing it's on the way to Moscwa?

Leningrad defense is too weak - major mistake by me. A combination of prioritising industry evacuations and Stef78's rapid advance has left me very short of rail capacity. I'm leaving some returning units in the Urals to save on usage. However, Moscow is well defended - could do with more units (of course) but a number of nice surprises await our unwelcome visitors

I think at this stage his infantry are essentially irrelevant, he has pushed ahead of them that all they are doing is marching over the dusty steppes. From a bit later, I think the deployment is fairly standard - a couple of very well equipped corps at Leningrad and the rest essentially in their historical configuration

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

...

If you play me expect the same, but I never let my Panzers get cut off other then mybee the lead raider MoT division

I don't think this is a good idea (for either of us). I think your rule set is designed to give you an early win or at worst a draw unless your opponent is prepared to spend as long working out how to exploit the game engine as you do. Also I find your obsession with straight lines ... if I may borrow a phrase 'middle-earth'

I'm really not interested in abusing the game system to gain an advantage ... I play these things PBEM for entertainment and the fun of a strategic/operational tussle (which is also why I really like the AGEOD games). As maybe perfectly clear, I'm always willing to accept/agree an imposed constraint if I think that gives both sides a better game (like not abusing the new air rules).

< Message edited by loki100 -- 3/13/2016 12:29:00 PM >

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Post #: 41

T6: 24-30 July 1941 - 3/15/2016 11:16:50 PM

loki100

Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
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T6: 24-30 July 1941

In the north, the Germans close in on Leningrad � last chance to evacuate industry from there.

In the centre the pocket south of Smolensk is sealed off. Of more concern was the raid on Bryansk � this will cost me the industry in the city. Since I had cut off that unit last turn, I was a little bit surprised that it managed this.

Stalin celebrated by having Pavlov shot

In the south, the German lunge seemed to have its limits. No important gains. Gives me chance to redeploy Southern Front to shield the Dombas.

VP situation indicates I'm still losing

But so far I've not lost that many units actually destroyed. Depends on how the rest of the summer/autumn works out but at the moment I should emerge into the snows of winter with a fairly powerful army.

Couldn't manage much in response. Managed to open the pocket at Smolensk and surrounded that SS Motorised Division. Have no doubt it will be rescued but I hoping that will mean that Stef78 has to allocate units to that task so they can't cause me harm elsewhere. One good thing is that at the moment his armour is south of the Oka.

In the south, though the Germans have stopped, the urge to cut off their spearhead was too much to miss out on.

The Germans lost 15,000 men (5,000 kia), 50 tanks and 15 planes. I lost 116,000 men 912,000 kia, 90,000 prisoners), 500 tanks and 100 planes.

_____________________________

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 42

Turn 7: 31 July � 6 August 1941 - 3/18/2016 1:08:01 PM

loki100

Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
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Turn 7: 31 July � 6 August 1941

Situation at Leningrad (predictably) worsens.

At least the need to rescue that SS Mot division meant the main German offensive at Moscow had to swing south.

I'm becoming a bit more relaxed in the south. This shows the position after my moves. The defence is designed to cost MPs rather than win battles.

With the lull I was catching up on factory evacuations at both Kharkov and in the Dombas [1]

Stef78 was not at all impressed by my attempt to hold onto Odessa.

OOB

Losses were light for the Germans, mine increased due to the destruction of a number of pockets.

They lost 17,500 men (7,000 kia), 60 tanks and 40 planes. Mine were 117,000 men (16,000 kia and 82,000 prisoners), 640 tanks and 310 planes [2]

[1] I've just sent back T14 and have moved 71 HI, lost 17 and have 17 more I need to move. For Arms pts things have gone less well but have moved 131 and lost 44. 34 still to move (if I can). At worst this will give me 204 HI (and probably 221), 292 Arms Pts (and probably around 310). No truck losses and the last will move next turn.
[2] As before I am using the VVS much more aggressively than in previous games.

< Message edited by loki100 -- 3/18/2016 1:10:38 PM >

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Post #: 43

RE: Turn 7: 31 July � 6 August 1941 - 3/19/2016 5:06:16 PM

STEF78

Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline

In the South, at this time my Pzd were dramatically short of fuel.

It's partially due to the skill of Loki but also to a mistake I made on the first turn. I began to use my FDB in the Lvov area. A move from Loki cut the rail line so it was only end turn 3 when the FBD arrived near Kishinev.

It's means 6 hexes less of rail and the consequences on suplly

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 44

RE: Turn 7: 31 July � 6 August 1941 - 3/19/2016 10:48:40 PM

sillyflower

Posts: 3509
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Back in Blighty
Status: offline

Nasty, but if you moved the one starting near B. Litovsk to Rumania as quickly as possible, that's the more important one for supplying the south. If you didn't move it down there on T1, you will struggle.

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Post #: 45

RE: Sympathy for the Devil: Loki100 vs Stef78 (Stef78 w... - 2/18/2017 5:52:22 PM

wktr8222

Posts: 21
Joined: 11/17/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: STEF78

Nice to play against Loki100!

Back on the german side. I didn't play them for several monthes. Thus I discover the last changes due to 1.08.xx. One FBD less is annoying...

Neither of us is to give up after 17 or 25 turns so this game should last to the bitter end . And we won't use gamey tricks.

During the first turns, I will focuse on keeping my momentum on in order to:
1) destroy russian industry
2) create some pockets