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Bombs and how to use them...

 
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Bombs and how to use them... - 4/4/2016 1:32:34 PM   
bertibott

 

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From: Germany
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Hi,

I am having trouble using bombs...
I am trying to attack a more or less stationary target with (I deduced that it's bunch of guys with handheld AA-missiles) a bomber (Su- [twentyfour... the system won't let me include numbers in my post....] Fencer with OFAB-[onehundred]-[onehundred-twenty] Frag).
In the manual weapon allocation window it says that the target is either out of range, or that it cannot attack for x seconds due to OODA-loop limitations. The problem is that even if the plane is going very slowly it will have passed over the target of that time x... ergo won't be able to attack.

What exactly is the OODA loop? How can I reduce the time (since I doubt it is fixed to a time that would make it impossible to actually drop the weapon)
And how do I best pick the weapon for a target?

I accidently posted this very post already in the Tech-Support section... so I am basically reposting it here.

Post #: 1
RE: Bombs and how to use them... - 4/4/2016 3:09:57 PM   
Primarchx


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That's annoying, to be sure.

OODA = Observe, Orient, Decide, Act. It's a term for how actions are implemented and often used as a time cycle (how long does it take to observe an issue, orient yourself effectively with it, decide what to do and implement that decision).

Try doing the following...

1) When significantly far out, select the target you're going to bomb with the a/c you're going to bomb them with. That should start the OODA timer with plenty of time. You can see the OODA times in the unit's DB, based on their training level.

2) Review the weapon you're going to use. What are its' employment parameters? Do you need to lose/gain altitude and/or speed to use it effectively?

3) Plan your approach. If you intend to drop your bombs at 2000' AGL find out what altitude the target is at and plan on putting your a/c 2000' above that altitude. To avoid AAA and SHORAD missiles it's usually best to keep above 10k-12k feet, so determine where you will begin your decent to bomb with the dive rate of your a/c. You'll want to be at dumb-bomb-dropping altitude for only a short period of time while you actually pickle the bombs away. Or if making a NOE pass, perhaps you have to climb briefly.

4) Typically the closer you can employ a dumb-bomb, the more accurate it is. Speed may also be an issue (I'll often bomb at Mil speed, though) Be aware that air-dropped ordnance now 'strings' it's hits along your a/c's flight path, so if you're bombing a linear target like a runway, try to 'line up' along it's axis.

5) Once you release your bombs, get the heck out of Dodge. Angle away from any firing AAA, climb and get any speed you can muster. If NOE, look for a terrain-masking egress and scoot.

6) Plan on One Pass & Haul Ass unless you are confident in your sides' air dominance and air defense suppression to allow further engagement.

When picking a weapon to attack a target with (weaponeering) first determine what a/c you have, what ordnance they can carry, what that ordnance does, what ordnance you have on hand and the loading times of that ordnance. You can check the a/c by clicking the Air Ops button for a given facility, the available ordnance by clicking the Magazines on that facility and what ordnance an a/c can carry by reviewing it's DB entry. Each weapon also has a DB entry which will tell you what targets it's good against, how much damage it does, what its' range is, what its' employment parameters are, etc.

Naturally the best weapons to use are those that are the most accurate, have the longest range and do the most damage. But these silver bullets are rarely in high supply. You can make up with low accuracy by firing more weapons (so dropping more dumb bombs is necessary to hit a target than using smart bombs). Sometimes you can make up with weapons that do less damage by firing more of them at a target, though heavily armored targets may negate this. And of course the closer you get to a defended target to employ your weapons the more you need to accept that you'll suffer losses.

When making a bombing run I'll often create secondary/tertiary targets for my a/c to go after if the first ships' bombs destroy my primary target. The approach vector is chosen so that I can easily deviate (no more than 45 degrees off nose on the approach) to hit these targets, if possible.

< Message edited by Primarchx -- 4/4/2016 3:14:16 PM >

(in reply to bertibott)
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RE: Bombs and how to use them... - 4/4/2016 5:14:23 PM   
bertibott

 

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From: Germany
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thanks for the reply! i really appreciate it!
but... what is NOE?

as for the rest... i get the concept of how i should conduct the mission.. as in i understand taht i have to put my aircraft into a position from wich it can use its weapons (altitude, speed, distance and so on) though i'll admit i have not thought it through in as much detail...
the problem is more of the "how-do-i-make-the-plane-understand-what-i-want-it-to-do"-kind.
How do I "select" the target (#1) while I am still out of range? I can't allocate the bombs then (can I? if so.. how?). And if I just Auto-Attack (F1 + Click) it will either go into crazy-mode and circle the target until all its ammunition is spent or... do nothing (which i do not understand at all...) And if I set up a strike-mission with more than one target it will do one pass, attack one target and go home...

All this is to say, that I think I am doing something wrong... but don't know what exactly... do I have to micro-manage alle my units?

(in reply to Primarchx)
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RE: Bombs and how to use them... - 4/4/2016 5:16:40 PM   
Sardaukar


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NOE = Nap of the Earth. Meaning flying as low as you dare.

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


(in reply to bertibott)
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RE: Bombs and how to use them... - 4/4/2016 7:05:32 PM   
Primarchx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bertibott

... do I have to micro-manage alle my units?



You don't have to micromanage all our units. You can elect to attack a unit even if you're not in range, you just can't actually attack but the OODA clock usually starts ticking.

(in reply to bertibott)
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RE: Bombs and how to use them... - 4/4/2016 7:18:54 PM   
alphali

 

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If you are manually attacking you can assign bombs before being in range, just choose the number of bombs and click assign even if the weapon is in red you can see that it assignes the bombs in the top right window. As for automatic attack, make sure that you have altitude and speed set to automatic or at least in the release envelope, if not the plane will not fire and it might start circling trying to launch and failing.

< Message edited by alphali -- 4/4/2016 7:21:52 PM >

(in reply to Primarchx)
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RE: Bombs and how to use them... - 4/5/2016 6:16:50 PM   
bertibott

 

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Joined: 6/19/2015
From: Germany
Status: offline
okay... so i have been playing around a bit... but i still cannot manage to drop a single bomb on a target.

I tried three things:
I plotted a course that right across the target. I took care to meet the parameters for the bomb and I am pretty sure I got that right. I then manually allocated bombs to the targets (there were 3 stationary AAA batteries) assuming that the bombs would be dropped when the plane passed over the target. It didn't... the log showed a message that it had dropped the target due to them not being auto-targeted (that didn't make any sense to me).

I then did the same thing again only this time after setting the flightpath I set the plan on auto-attack (F1 + select) and then allocated the bombs. No message. It just chose to "forget" the weapons allocation.

Lastly I simply F1-clicked the target and let the plane chose its own flightpath (wich resulted in a flightplan very similar to the one I had chosen before). Again... it passed over and did nothing...

I am guessing I am doing something wrong... The targets were detected. I had a helicopter hovering nearby.

(in reply to alphali)
Post #: 7
RE: Bombs and how to use them... - 4/5/2016 7:03:05 PM   
Rory Noonan

 

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From: Brooklyn, NY
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Post a save game and we can help. Without that there's too many variables to consider.

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RE: Bombs and how to use them... - 4/6/2016 9:00:30 AM   
bertibott

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 6/19/2015
From: Germany
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here you go...
I have already set the flightpath and allocated the bombs.

EDIT:
I played around a bit. Turns out my altitude was too low over the target. So I set it from 2000 to 3000. Still no bombs were dropped. I was tracking the plane as it passed over the target. First the message said that the target was outside of the weapons range (A range that apparently had nothing to do with the little orange circle on the map).
And when it got close enough it restarted the OODA-loop.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by bertibott -- 4/6/2016 9:24:57 AM >

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Post #: 9
RE: Bombs and how to use them... - 4/6/2016 10:23:15 AM   
Rory Noonan

 

Posts: 2816
Joined: 12/18/2014
From: Brooklyn, NY
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Strange, I can't get the bombs to drop either.

I recreated the same situation by placing the same elements into a blank scenario, and it worked fine for both manual allocation and strike missions.

No matter what I do (drop contact and move helicopter closer to re-establish contact, try strike mission, try a new aircraft from base) I can't get any bombs to drop on those units. It seems like there is some problem with the attacking units not being able to see the target until the last second, and then the OODA loop starts--obviously it's not complete before the target is overflown, and even on a second run it just starts again. Weird.

Also subbed in an A-10 in the original save and managed to score some kills by flying over really slowly and with longer ranged weapons. But the OODA loop is only beginning once the targets are in range, not on allocation which is what normally happens.

This looks like a bug, I've reported it for you


< Message edited by apache85 -- 4/6/2016 11:00:40 AM >

(in reply to bertibott)
Post #: 10
RE: Bombs and how to use them... - 4/6/2016 11:34:49 AM   
bertibott

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 6/19/2015
From: Germany
Status: offline
okay... nice to know I am not stupid... or at least not AS stupid... :)

but to get back the original topic... do you know a mission that i could use to properly practice using dumb bombs?
i will go get my cudgel... somebody hand me a seal... and a nice fluffy one if you please!

< Message edited by bertibott -- 4/6/2016 11:43:26 AM >

(in reply to Rory Noonan)
Post #: 11
RE: Bombs and how to use them... - 4/6/2016 1:19:04 PM   
Rory Noonan

 

Posts: 2816
Joined: 12/18/2014
From: Brooklyn, NY
Status: offline
Try 'Basic Training: Air Operations' in the tutorials folder, it's quite a good scenario to learn with.

I finished a play-through of Shamal, 1991 today (found under stand-alone scenarios). Plenty of dumb-bomb dropping action there. Really enjoyed it actually.

And finally, a shameless plug for my own work: Good Morning Malvinas is a scenario set in the Falklands and one of the objectives is to conduct air strikes on two airports You'll also do a bit of ASW, recon, insertion of special forces and naval gunfire support.

(in reply to bertibott)
Post #: 12
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