[ADJUSTMENTS MADE B820] Radars vs ground targets (b818)

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[ADJUSTMENTS MADE B820] Radars vs ground targets (b818) - 4/20/2016 12:38:13 PM

mahuja

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Apparently some changes were done to radar detection recently (related to detecting low flying aircraft?) which crippled all radar detection against ground targets.

An E-8C is able to detect ground facilities in the 25dB+ range (that are autodetectable by default), but drop to the next level down, 2dB, and it can't find them even from 700m away. (Yes, flying low.) Nevermind most targets that are -2dB or lower.

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< Message edited by emsoy -- 4/22/2016 5:00:21 PM >

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RE: Radars vs ground targets (b818) - 4/20/2016 9:10:27 PM

Lowlaner2012

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Any update on this guys?

Cheers

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RE: Radars vs ground targets (b818) - 4/20/2016 9:48:34 PM

ComDev

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It is probably some clutter thingie... not sure I dare touch it for 1.11, so may have to wait for 1.12.

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RE: Radars vs ground targets (b818) - 4/20/2016 10:04:42 PM

Lowlaner2012

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Cheers for the answer :-)

How much does this affect gameplay?

Does this count for ships as well, are they also harder for E-8C to detect in 1.11?

< Message edited by highlandcharge -- 4/20/2016 10:17:22 PM >

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RE: Radars vs ground targets (b818) - 4/20/2016 10:23:03 PM

ComDev

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Think the clutter stuff was fixed in 1.09 or 1.10 so if there is an error it must have been around for a while. As such it should have minimum effect on gameplay. But then again I haven't checked yet so I might be wrong.

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RE: Radars vs ground targets (b818) - 4/20/2016 10:54:03 PM

Lowlaner2012

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Think I head on back to 1.10 till the potential ground clutter 1.11 beta bug has been squashed or disproven, thanks.

< Message edited by highlandcharge -- 4/20/2016 11:47:59 PM >

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RE: Radars vs ground targets (b818) - 4/20/2016 11:58:19 PM

thewood1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: highlandcharge

Think I head on back to 1.10 till the potential ground clutter 1.11 beta bug has been squashed or disproven, thanks.

Seems rather rash and harsh. If its that important to you, why not test it yourself. I just did. It only effects small units on the ground. Its mostly infantry, tanks, and some smaller SAM and arty installs. And it only effects a very limited number of specialized ground scan units like the E-8 and a few others. All medium to large ground installs and ships/boats are detectable as they should be.

And how about a little patience to go with some common sense...a few hours after reporting and you are pestering the devs for a response to something you never even noticed.

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RE: Radars vs ground targets (b818) - 4/21/2016 5:12:40 AM

ComDev

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quote:

ORIGINAL: highlandcharge

Think I head on back to 1.10 till the potential ground clutter 1.11 beta bug has been squashed or disproven, thanks.

...and if you read my note you'd know it is probably in 1.10 as well

< Message edited by emsoy -- 4/21/2016 5:57:27 AM >

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RE: Radars vs ground targets (b818) - 4/21/2016 9:40:18 AM

Lowlaner2012

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Thanks for the courteous replies emsoy..

And thewood1, I was busy with work yesterday and last night so I couldn't test it, but I will tonight, all I was doing was asking if anybody else including the devs had any updates on it.

Asking what... 3 or 4 questions is not pestering in my book, I don't need a lecture on manners, common sense or patience from you....

< Message edited by highlandcharge -- 4/21/2016 10:58:22 AM >

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RE: Radars vs ground targets (b818) - 4/21/2016 11:27:33 AM

Dimitris

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Keep calm, guys. It's unfortunate that this was discovered at this point in time but we'll place it high on our stack for the next major update.

There's some other stuff coming that's going to make it worth the wait

< Message edited by Sunburn -- 4/21/2016 11:30:53 AM >

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RE: Radars vs ground targets (b818) - 4/21/2016 11:51:12 AM

thewood1

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Sunburn, my only point was someone coming in and throwing the martyr syndrome out there for an issue they don't understand, never noticed before, and could have just waited and tested it themselves. The effort to go back to 1.10 is probably 10 times what it would take to just test it. Or maybe even wait to see if someone else could test it. He couldn't test it, yet felt the need to go all the way back to 1.10, even though 1.11 fixed a number of much larger issues. I just see someone panicking well outside the proportional issue.

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RE: Radars vs ground targets (b818) - 4/21/2016 11:51:53 AM

Lowlaner2012

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Hi Sunburn,

I'm calm

Hey if it only affects very small targets and only a few aircraft I can happily live with that....i will avoid the scenarios that have a lot of small ground units and/or have the E-8C or similar planes in it...

One of the major strengths of this game is its flexibility and the wide variety of scenarios that can and have been created using it...

Thanks

Hey thewood1, I get a bit OCD sometimes, I apologize to you and the devs if my reaction was a bit overblown

< Message edited by highlandcharge -- 4/21/2016 11:58:25 AM >

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RE: Radars vs ground targets (b818) - 4/21/2016 3:08:01 PM

mikmykWS

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Added to our list.

Mike

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RE: Radars vs ground targets (b818) - 4/21/2016 3:35:32 PM

comsubpac

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

Keep calm, guys. It's unfortunate that this was discovered at this point in time but we'll place it high on our stack for the next major update.

There's some other stuff coming that's going to make it worth the wait

Multiplayer?

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RE: Radars vs ground targets (b818) - 4/21/2016 9:37:34 PM

mahuja

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quote:

Hey if it only affects very small targets and only a few aircraft I can happily live with that....

AFAICT this affects ALL ground targets that aren't MAJOR installations, and all airborne ground search radars including those mounted on fighters.
The E-8 is just the crown example; if that doesn't work, nothing works. And the things you won't detect include sam sites that are not (yet) emitting their radars. (Non-radar SAMS thus become a nightmare to deal with until you run them dry, or if you happen to have the appropriate (non-radar) equipment.)

In other words, this will severely cripple the balance of many existing missions. By the same token, missions made while broken will be unbalanced the other way when fixed.

One mission affected by it is "Tempest Marlin, 2016". (aka "Transgressor Marlin (2016).scen", but that's a peeve for another day)
As of right now, you need to have the uav or other ground IRST (luckily you have it) zig-zag to search for the convoy before you can do much, and then you need to "happen upon" (spoiler alert) the coastal artillery before it sinks your ships.

Worse, I remember this worked the previous time I played it, during the 1.11 RCs. For whatever my temporal memory is worth, meaning it needs to be verified.

Missions where everything is at sea, should not be affected.

< Message edited by mahuja -- 4/21/2016 9:42:12 PM >

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RE: Radars vs ground targets (b818) - 4/21/2016 10:03:30 PM

mikmykWS

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Ok been testing this and the issue might be just in the high altitude band and not entirely sure if its is clutter. Having the guys take a look. As you can see from the screenshot the other bands are working fine.

This issue has been logged and followed up on. Thank you all for your help in sorting it!

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RE: Radars vs ground targets (b818) - 4/21/2016 11:27:01 PM

Lowlaner2012

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Ok just done a test with the Tempest Marlin scenario, in 1.10 (I have a double install of the game) the J-star has no trouble picking up the Mobile sites around Douala and the Armored convoy...

But in the 1.11 B818 neither the J-star or the F22s can pick up the mobile sites or the Convoy at any altitude...

I think I still have the old 1.11 RC betas on my hardrive, I will install them one by one to see which one caused the change in the airborne ground search radars...

will that help any?

Thanks

< Message edited by highlandcharge -- 4/21/2016 11:43:03 PM >

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RE: Radars vs ground targets (b818) - 4/21/2016 11:39:34 PM

mikmykWS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: highlandcharge

Ok just done a test with the Tempest Marlin scenario, in 1.10 (I have a double install of the game) the J-star has no trouble picking up the Mobile sites around Douala and the Armored convoy...

But in the 1.11 B818 neither the J-star or the F22s can pick up the mobile sites or the Convoy at any altitude...

I think I still have the old 1.11 RC betas on my hardrive, I will install them one by one to see which one caused the change in the airborne ground search radars...

Can you post that file?

Thanks!

Mike

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RE: Radars vs ground targets (b818) - 4/21/2016 11:42:24 PM

Lowlaner2012

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Ok will do, give me 10 mins...

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RE: Radars vs ground targets (b818) - 4/22/2016 12:10:37 AM

Lowlaner2012

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Ok here are the files...both the J-stars and F22s are loitering just off the coast...

In the 1st file both the J-Stars the F22s are at high altitude and can pick up no mobiles at all...

I think you where correct about the altitude bands Mike, I tried lowering the the J-star and F22s separately, at 12,000ft there where still no contacts for either of them, but when I lowered them to 2000ft, lowering one, reloading and lowering the other the mobile and armored column contacts started to roll in for both...

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< Message edited by highlandcharge -- 4/22/2016 12:14:06 AM >

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RE: Radars vs ground targets (b818) - 4/22/2016 12:16:16 AM

mikmykWS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: highlandcharge

Ok here are the files...both the J-stars and F22s are loitering just off the coast...

In the 1st file both the J-Stars the F22s are at high altitude and can pick up no mobiles at all...

I think you where correct about the altitude bands Mike, I tried lowering the the J-star and F22s separately, at 12,000ft there where still no contacts for either of them, but when I lowered them to 2000ft, lowering one, reloading and lowering the other the mobile and armored column contacts started to roll in for both...

Ok thanks for the file I'll add it to the report so the guys have a couple to look at. Appreciate your time on this!

Mike

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RE: Radars vs ground targets (b818) - 4/22/2016 12:17:22 AM

Lowlaner2012

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No problem :)

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RE: Radars vs ground targets (b818) - 4/22/2016 4:58:51 PM

ComDev

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Oooookay have debugged the radar model for about an hr or so...

The radar equation, grazing angle and ground clutter model works just fine. At higher grazing angles the radar is pretty much blanked out by the massive ground clutter returns. It is equal to 235 sq m RCS when looking from 36k ft against a nearby ground target with the given land surface (Wetland).

I've updated the effects of GMTI just a tad bit, so that moving targets are picked up slightly easier than earlier. Static targets (like a parked tanks) is still difficult to spot.

Please give B820 a spin when it is released, and let us know what you think.

Thanks!

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RE: Radars vs ground targets (b818) - 4/22/2016 7:06:30 PM

Lowlaner2012

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Thanks, will do some testing when B820 is out...

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RE: Radars vs ground targets (b818) - 4/22/2016 7:24:42 PM

mikmykWS

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Thanks Rag!

Mike

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RE: Radars vs ground targets (b818) - 4/23/2016 10:52:34 PM

Lowlaner2012

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Hi Guys

I have run the Tempest Marlin scenario with the new B820, now the J-Star picks up the moving armored column from 40,000ft but still has to drop to 2,000ft to pick up the mobiles around Douala...

So its still hard to detect static targets when at a high to medium but its a lot easier to detect ground units that are moving, so the tweak seems to be working as intended...

Cheers

< Message edited by highlandcharge -- 4/23/2016 11:22:42 PM >

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RE: Radars vs ground targets (b818) - 4/24/2016 12:07:02 AM

thewood1

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I think even the J-star has a hard time picking up smaller(person, regular car). Especially if they aren't moving.

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RE: Radars vs ground targets (b818) - 4/24/2016 1:40:19 AM

Kitchens Sink

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I just got finished making some tweaks to the scenario "Korean Campaign -2018" which has a ton of ground units of all types. It used to be too easy to spot them with radar, then in later Builds it was too hard....with Build 820 I think Emsoy has nailed it perfectly. Just right.

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RE: Radars vs ground targets (b818) - 4/24/2016 6:32:38 AM

Dimitris

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I think even the J-star has a hard time picking up smaller(person, regular car). Especially if they aren't moving.

Yes. Hence LSRS.

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RE: Radars vs ground targets (b818) - 4/24/2016 9:48:22 AM

Lowlaner2012

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IRL if the J-Star was some all seing eye there would no use for UAVs or all weather targeting pods...

So I agree kitchensink, after playing the game for an hour or so the ground radar model feels just right :-)

Thanks to the devs for all your hard work...

< Message edited by highlandcharge -- 4/24/2016 9:54:58 AM >

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