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Call to try long duration scenarios - 5/7/2016 1:50:42 AM

mikmykWS

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Hi

We've added a bunch of things now that should in theory allow for some pretty long duration scenarios and would like to know everybody's experience with this and what kinds of things we can add to improve this. Please let us know. I know I'll be working with it to see how it does.

Thanks!

Mike

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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios - 5/7/2016 10:28:19 AM

Gizzmoe

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I guess everyone has a different view on what "long duration" means. A month? A year? Ten years? Things like automated maintenance checks could be useful for longer scens, or even automated mid-life platform upgrades for scens that run over several years.

But is it really useful that the devs implement stuff that IMO is irrelevant for 99% of all scens? And how feasible is it anyway to play a scen that has many units and spans over even just a month? It would take ages to play through. What would be universally useful though for all kinds of scens, and especially longer scens, is random and user-defined (repairable) breakdowns for platforms and sensors.

< Message edited by Gizzmoe -- 5/7/2016 10:52:43 AM >

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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios - 5/7/2016 12:45:29 PM

Skjold

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(Warning: i have only very basic, non professional understanding of Lua so i wouldn't be suprised if there is some errors in this post.)

I have thought about making longer scenarios but the main things that made it unviable for me was the inability to add magazines to the scenario mid mission via lua, for example that mid mission a cargo airplane or helicopter would arrive at an airbase with munitions to keep the fight going. Great use for helicopters and cargo aircraft by the way, which has limited use now.

Maybe something like this, it should also be useful for shorter missions in relation to what Gizzmoe said.

ScenEdit_AddMagazine('SideNameOrId'.'MagazineName'.DBID.Quantity.'UnitID? GroupID?')

There is ofcourse some problems with this, like for example that there isn't to my knowledge any support for "Unit Enters Area" or "Unit Remains In Area" to be about a specific Group or unit such as a harbour or a airfield but ofcourse reference points could also be used.

Edit: the main problem i can think of is that you can have duplicate names of both single units and groups. Im sure the game somewhere defines each group with a unique ID but as far as i know it is not available to the player/mission designer.

< Message edited by Skjold -- 5/7/2016 12:55:25 PM >

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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios - 5/7/2016 3:56:05 PM

mikmykWS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gizzmoe

I guess everyone has a different view on what "long duration" means. A month? A year? Ten years? Things like automated maintenance checks could be useful for longer scens, or even automated mid-life platform upgrades for scens that run over several years.

But is it really useful that the devs implement stuff that IMO is irrelevant for 99% of all scens? And how feasible is it anyway to play a scen that has many units and spans over even just a month? It would take ages to play through. What would be universally useful though for all kinds of scens, and especially longer scens, is random and user-defined (repairable) breakdowns for platforms and sensors.

I'm not interested in what can't be done but what can. Experimenting and trying is how we learn.

That being said I need folks who are actually building stuff to chime in on this.

Mike

< Message edited by mikmyk -- 5/7/2016 3:58:42 PM >

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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios - 5/7/2016 4:01:49 PM

mikmykWS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Skjold

(Warning: i have only very basic, non professional understanding of Lua so i wouldn't be suprised if there is some errors in this post.)

I have thought about making longer scenarios but the main things that made it unviable for me was the inability to add magazines to the scenario mid mission via lua, for example that mid mission a cargo airplane or helicopter would arrive at an airbase with munitions to keep the fight going. Great use for helicopters and cargo aircraft by the way, which has limited use now.

Maybe something like this, it should also be useful for shorter missions in relation to what Gizzmoe said.

ScenEdit_AddMagazine('SideNameOrId'.'MagazineName'.DBID.Quantity.'UnitID? GroupID?')

There is ofcourse some problems with this, like for example that there isn't to my knowledge any support for "Unit Enters Area" or "Unit Remains In Area" to be about a specific Group or unit such as a harbour or a airfield but ofcourse reference points could also be used.

Edit: the main problem i can think of is that you can have duplicate names of both single units and groups. Im sure the game somewhere defines each group with a unique ID but as far as i know it is not available to the player/mission designer.

Good point. You could use an import to spawn in a mag which you can group with an existing one. Likewise might be able to do something as you suggest, saw some code recently that might make it work now but need to see if it works.

Using our existing stuff how long do you think a current scenario could go?

Mike

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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios - 5/8/2016 1:17:09 AM

Skjold

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Good point. You could use an import to spawn in a mag which you can group with an existing one. Likewise might be able to do something as you suggest, saw some code recently that might make it work now but need to see if it works.

Using our existing stuff how long do you think a current scenario could go?

Mike

It all depends on the intensity of the mission, a low intensity CAS mission with enemies spawning dynamnically might essentially go on forever (a l� afghanistan) given that that munitions pile is big enough / get resupplied. while a very intense slug fest for aerial supremacy might last for a day (such as a mission im currently in the final stages of making) but for all intents and purposes i don't think most people would play a mission longer then a week or two for an aerial combat and a month or two for a naval one, and that is imo stretching it.

< Message edited by Skjold -- 5/8/2016 1:19:57 AM >

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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios - 5/8/2016 1:17:59 AM

Skjold

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double post.

< Message edited by Skjold -- 5/8/2016 1:19:35 AM >

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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios - 5/8/2016 3:06:30 AM

Gunner98

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I could easily think of scenarios lasting a couple weeks. Would have to get better at Lua. Some thoughts:
-Don't know if Lua can modify the readiness of AC in the F6 screen, that could handle the issue of cycling AC through maintenance on a random or fixed by the designer. If Lua doesn't do it than you can delete AC for a period and then add them back in.
-the pier facilities add a lot to this concept: Convoy crosses the great blue to resupply a beleaguered airbase with key munitions, reinvigorating the air campaign etc etc
-you could identify a 'play-box' and spawn units in and out near the edge (out for points?) or represent the global scale and have ships spawn in ports a long way from the fight and either rush to the rescue (through sub infested waters) or not get there in time.

One of my upcoming Northern Fury scenarios 'Body Blow' was going to be broken into a few smaller ones. I could try and keep it as one. its only 4 days long but has 4xCVN + 2xCV and a bunch of other stuff. More 'big' than 'long' so doesn't really fit your initial post.

Eventually when I get to Pacific Fury (I know, I'm a sick puppy), there are some long duration scenarios in there.

Perhaps there is room for a trans-Atlantic convoy push. The JFK with a couple VS sqns is on SLOC duty so could run a 6-7 day contested crossing. Let me think on it.

B

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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios - 5/8/2016 9:13:54 AM

ComDev

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Would be interesting to know what the limitations are, both in RL time and game time.

Say, small scen at high compression running for days, weeks, months, maybe even years in game time.

And small/medium scens running for days or even weeks real time.

Perhaps some of you have spare computers or VMs where you could try this out?

Thanks!

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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios - 5/8/2016 10:15:35 AM

lowchi

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A few weeks ago, a tried to simulate a submarine deployment from New London to the Persian golf. With stops in Rota and Souda bay for training in the med. Very basic. Duration in game time was three months. Had no issues.

I am not sure if this is what you guys looking for, but I can try to automate this with events and Lua tomorrow. Then run it and see if I can find some issues or even suggestions.

< Message edited by lowchi -- 5/8/2016 10:20:01 AM >

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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios - 5/8/2016 2:46:01 PM

Gunner98

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I'll crank something up quick and run it on my laptop.

One feature that would help and I think is fairly simple is an adjustment to the 'Ferry' mission where an AC goes out loaded, but returns empty (in ferry loadout) then when it cycles it goes out loaded again.

I'll pop it into the feature request list.

Does the Ferry mission work with ships now that piers act as home base? I'll check that out.

B

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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios - 5/8/2016 3:27:47 PM

lowchi

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quote:

Does the Ferry mission work with ships now that piers act as home base? I'll check that out.

Nope, just tried. Will add to feature request.

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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios - 5/9/2016 2:09:32 AM

AdmiralSteve

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Yeah, I'd like to see some long duration scenarios. UNREP seems to work well but I'd like to see the ship damage model work over an extended period like 24-48 hours. Lots of ships in naval history that were attacked, repaired and got back into the fight. I think it would be pretty cool to a have a damaged ship be repaired via a AR tender by pulling alongside.

< Message edited by AdmSteebe -- 5/9/2016 2:14:52 AM >

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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios - 5/9/2016 10:26:16 PM

rvseydlitz

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I have usually preferred longer scenarios, have worked on a couple of them. The primary issue that I had seen was that the AI side did not do refuels, so that eventually smaller vessels became dead in the water.

I had been occupied in real life much so have not messed with any design. I will eagerly check if this is still the case in the new version.

Great work as far as speeding up game play in the new versions, which would have been my #2 issue, but seems amazingly fast now.

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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios - 5/10/2016 1:46:32 AM

goodwoodrw

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Hey I was just fiddling with the editor on the back of Mike's request of try long duration scenarios.
I setup two reference points, one near Southampton the other near Perth WA. Because ships can't yet be placed in a transit mission I setup a support mission and assigned a ship to it. The AI pathing was incredible! The initially travelled east almost to the French coast then the AI path kicked in. Fanastic, down the west coast of Spain through the Gilbrator Straits across the Med through the Suez out into the Indian ocean and down to Perth. The AI brilliant.

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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios - 5/10/2016 1:51:00 AM

goodwoodrw

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For what its worth here is the scenario file. I had to find a ship with the suitable endurance.
What we need is to be able to place in a transit mission and I'm not sure how to setup a port refuelling stop on the way.

Attachment (1)

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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios - 5/10/2016 2:00:00 AM

goodwoodrw

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Just put a non Nav zone at the entrance of the Med sadly it totally confused the AI, couldn't find a path

< Message edited by mikmyk -- 5/10/2016 2:03:08 PM >

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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios - 5/10/2016 2:52:01 AM

schweggy

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�Long Duration�

I�d like to see a scenario where the �player� is a CIC type actor.

A possible situation:
The US is confronted by Iran, DPRK, Russia and PLAN in various parts of the globe. The player is prompted to pick one �situation� and work it. What happens in that scenario is not necessarily relevant to any other situation, but perhaps assets are depleted or reassigned. Over a �real time� period of a month or more I�d like to see how players would allocate their resources, within the limits of the game engine of course.

In my opinion this is probably a realistic model of a Commander in Chief�s typical year in office. Spike it with a Hillary or Donald persona and see what happens. I�d guess one could integrate this via the campaign model and some snazzy scripting. Just a thought.

Examples: (Pick a side)

February 2017: New US President is elected and is confronted with aggressive China in SCS.
- Trump: �give �em hell�
o Massive US Navy presence
o Accelerated F-35 integration
o Ramped up ICBM posture
- HRC: let�s see what happens
o Minimal USN presence in SCS
o LCS as front line assets
o Minimal air assets

June 2018: Iran prepares nuke ICBM test
- Trump: Israel�s on their own, we can�t protect everyone
o Surgical strikes
o No overt defense of Israel
- HRC: We stand with Israel
o Large scale air campaign
o Massive redeployment of USAF to IAD bases

October 2018: North Korea steps it up (with cameo by PLAN)
- Trump: nuke the bastard, now.
- HRC: nuke the bastard, soon.

The possibilities are endless�.

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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios - 5/10/2016 9:49:46 AM

CCIP-subsim

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I'll hopefully be able to hop back in and try something - I've been away from CMANO for the past couple of months, but this gives me an excuse to finish up that dynamic Vietnam scenario I had, and hopefully see what can be done from there! I think there is definitely some great possibilities for longer-term scenarios with a bit more strategy/supply issues involved, but I think what will be really important is for scenario designers to also have discipline and a good sense of the scope of their scenarios. There often seems to be this fixation on politics and grand strategy, when Command is still very much an operational/tactical game and it's at that level that scenarios need to be really thought through.

What I'm personally interested in trying is creating long-term self-generating scenarios - sort of like little dynamic campaigns, where you and the AI get a steady stream of objectives and supplies generated continuously, day by day or phase by phase, and which run for let's say a few weeks and at the end you get a final score. It could be a great way of making low-intensity operations in large theaters very interesting.

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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios - 5/10/2016 1:55:17 PM

mikmykWS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CCIPsubsim

I'll hopefully be able to hop back in and try something - I've been away from CMANO for the past couple of months, but this gives me an excuse to finish up that dynamic Vietnam scenario I had, and hopefully see what can be done from there! I think there is definitely some great possibilities for longer-term scenarios with a bit more strategy/supply issues involved, but I think what will be really important is for scenario designers to also have discipline and a good sense of the scope of their scenarios. There often seems to be this fixation on politics and grand strategy, when Command is still very much an operational/tactical game and it's at that level that scenarios need to be really thought through.

What I'm personally interested in trying is creating long-term self-generating scenarios - sort of like little dynamic campaigns, where you and the AI get a steady stream of objectives and supplies generated continuously, day by day or phase by phase, and which run for let's say a few weeks and at the end you get a final score. It could be a great way of making low-intensity operations in large theaters very interesting.

lua makes this possible. You can do cause and effect. Let us know how it goes.

Big picture is D does have some plans for upper level AI stuff but we're still working on how it will work

Mike

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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios - 5/10/2016 2:01:59 PM

mikmykWS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BASB

Just put a non Nav zone at the entrance of the Med sadly it totally confused the AI, couldn't find a path

Does changing the change the Fine-Grained navigation setting to 20nm help?

See the article below for a detailed explanation.

http://www.warfaresims.com/?p=4243

Mike

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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios - 5/10/2016 4:07:48 PM

goodwoodrw

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

quote:

ORIGINAL: BASB

Just put a non Nav zone at the entrance of the Med sadly it totally confused the AI, couldn't find a path

Does changing the change the Fine-Grained navigation setting to 20nm help?

See the article below for a detailed explanation.

http://www.warfaresims.com/?p=4243

Mike

No it didn't.

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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios - 5/11/2016 2:24:34 AM

Kitchens Sink

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I have some ideas in mind for long-duration scenarios, but I will have to spend a LOT more time on Baloogan's Lua Script Wiki in order to make it work right. I'll give it a shot.

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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios - 5/11/2016 7:45:06 AM

CCIP-subsim

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By the way, is the documentation on all the new 1.10/1.11 features for the editor and Lua up to date on the wiki, or are there still things that need to be added?

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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios - 5/11/2016 3:31:43 PM

mikmykWS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CCIPsubsim

By the way, is the documentation on all the new 1.10/1.11 features for the editor and Lua up to date on the wiki, or are there still things that need to be added?

If you're talking about Baloogan's not sure but think the guys documented most features on the warfaresims blog. If you have a specific question try the Q and A site. I think the best Lua resource right now is Baloogan's forum.

Mike

< Message edited by mikmyk -- 5/11/2016 3:34:13 PM >

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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios - 5/11/2016 5:34:22 PM

Mgellis

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Hi

We've added a bunch of things now that should in theory allow for some pretty long duration scenarios and would like to know everybody's experience with this and what kinds of things we can add to improve this. Please let us know. I know I'll be working with it to see how it does.

Thanks!

Mike

I am really excited about the possibilities here. To me, a "long" scenario is "anything long enough that I might have to worry about refueling, getting magazines reloaded, etc." So, instead of one convoy mission, imagine four escort groups that each have to guide a convoy back and forth five or ten times over a period of a couple of months, with fifty or sixty enemy submarines scattered around the Atlantic...in short, the ability to fight a war (or at least a campaign) instead of a battle.

It is also a good solution to the "dynamic campaign" problem. If several linked scenarios can simply be written as one scenario, because it is possible to refuel and resupply existing ships, not to mention adding units that might not have been available at the beginning of the scenario via lua scrips and/or very long ready times, one can have dynamic campaigns--they just happen to be written as one very long scenario.

(In fact, to be honest, having tried to write sets of linked scenarios, I suspect this will actually work better than a group of linked scenarios...not to mention that it saves the devs from what I suspect would be some truly nightmarish coding adventures trying to retrofit the game so that it can search a scenario for losses and then edit other scenarios on the fly. I'm not a programmer, but I suspect that would be a rather hellish task. And it also means, by the way, that they will now be free to do other cool things with the game.)

I am definitely going to try to put together some of these long scenarios. First, I have to finish updating all the early scenarios I've written that have polygon errors and other issues, but I'm looking forward to trying my hand at this.

< Message edited by Mgellis -- 5/11/2016 5:36:48 PM >

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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios - 5/11/2016 5:56:21 PM

Gunner98

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I've got one similar to what you describe almost ready for testing. A CV, a CVL & a CH and a handful of small surface groups spread from Panama, to Halifax to West Africa and Europe. The initial set of convoys are easy, working lua to spawn a '# of ship/day' per location. Looking at one month long at this stage.

Some issues that I'm struggling with:
-We need to convince 'blh42' to assemble an import file for ports
-Time to unload cargo in ports, will be a working guess for now
-naming of the cargo ships will be very generic
-giving points for getting the cargo to the right place, I think it will initially have to be very generic as well
-am thinking of a naming convention (Panama - Europe) indicating that the player gets points for getting the ship to Europe.
-Once a ship spawns, gets to its destination - what next? one option is to simply give points for any ship staying in any unloading area for X amount of time - but that could be gamed very easily

Anyway hope to have the first version out later this week.

B

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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios - 5/11/2016 6:01:26 PM

hellfish6

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mgellis

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Hi

We've added a bunch of things now that should in theory allow for some pretty long duration scenarios and would like to know everybody's experience with this and what kinds of things we can add to improve this. Please let us know. I know I'll be working with it to see how it does.

Thanks!

Mike

I am really excited about the possibilities here. To me, a "long" scenario is "anything long enough that I might have to worry about refueling, getting magazines reloaded, etc." So, instead of one convoy mission, imagine four escort groups that each have to guide a convoy back and forth five or ten times over a period of a couple of months, with fifty or sixty enemy submarines scattered around the Atlantic...in short, the ability to fight a war (or at least a campaign) instead of a battle.

It is also a good solution to the "dynamic campaign" problem. If several linked scenarios can simply be written as one scenario, because it is possible to refuel and resupply existing ships, not to mention adding units that might not have been available at the beginning of the scenario via lua scrips and/or very long ready times, one can have dynamic campaigns--they just happen to be written as one very long scenario.

(In fact, to be honest, having tried to write sets of linked scenarios, I suspect this will actually work better than a group of linked scenarios...not to mention that it saves the devs from what I suspect would be some truly nightmarish coding adventures trying to retrofit the game so that it can search a scenario for losses and then edit other scenarios on the fly. I'm not a programmer, but I suspect that would be a rather hellish task. And it also means, by the way, that they will now be free to do other cool things with the game.)

I am definitely going to try to put together some of these long scenarios. First, I have to finish updating all the early scenarios I've written that have polygon errors and other issues, but I'm looking forward to trying my hand at this.

Concur - that is my thinking too. I'm still way too uncomfortable with LUA to really experiment with it, though. Might be fun to do something like the excellent, excellent Yankee Team scenario, but as a DD commander who has to spend 3-weeks on patrol off RVN doing NGFS or VBSS/whatever/etc. Or an FFG captain in the Tanker Wars for a month.

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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios - 5/11/2016 6:24:29 PM

Sardaukar

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Series of convoy operations from USA to Europe during hypothetical WW III might be one idea too.

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RE: Call to try long duration scenarios - 5/12/2016 5:36:56 PM

FTBSS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gizzmoe

I guess everyone has a different view on what "long duration" means. A month? A year? Ten years? Things like automated maintenance checks could be useful for longer scens, or even automated mid-life platform upgrades for scens that run over several years.

But is it really useful that the devs implement stuff that IMO is irrelevant for 99% of all scens? And how feasible is it anyway to play a scen that has many units and spans over even just a month? It would take ages to play through. What would be universally useful though for all kinds of scens, and especially longer scens, is random and user-defined (repairable) breakdowns for platforms and sensors.

I'm not interested in what can't be done but what can. Experimenting and trying is how we learn.

That being said I need folks who are actually building stuff to chime in on this.

Mike

Mike, I have been working on creating a very large scenario set in near future with 3-4 week duration it centers around US CVBG response to China invading Taiwan The CVBG would cross Pacific and in anticipation of this China would have Sub trap areas to stop or dwindle down the US forces from arriving on scene with adequate forces to harm the invasion. This would also allow for the ASBM attacks that the chinese forces are implementing.

I also have a bit smaller 3 week scenario I am working on set as a CVBG to support Israel in the event of a nuclear attack carried out by a nuclear armed Iran. The russian navy will come out of Odessa to interdict the US forces coming from the Atlantic through the Med.

Is this the kind of scenarios you are looking for?

I also started one based on convoys leaving the US to support Western Europe in event of an attack on the Baltic states by Russia, this one is very early stages.

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