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Some Expertise Needed - 5/15/2016 7:02:20 PM   
HexHead

 

Posts: 464
Joined: 2/9/2010
From: I'm from New Hampshire; I only work in cyberspace
Status: offline 		* I'm playing a BG Italy scenario, about 36 Turns in and there seems to be no LW, hardly any sorties. So, why are my Strategic Transports by sea getting hit? AFAICS, they aren't flying during their Turn and I'm not seeing anything displayed to tell me if they're flying on my Turn.

* Does the Axis have Port to Port supply? I had a PG Div in Taranto that was being a bit unreasonable, and their Supply widget was green (Supply SF ON), although surrounded and cut off.

* How can I determine Port sizes? The upper LH display almost always says '2'.

* How can I determine where Railyards are? The map is unclear to me in this respect.

Thanks,
HH

_____________________________

"Goddamn it, they're gittin' away!!"
- unknown tincan sailor near the end of Leyte Gulf, when Kurita retired
Post #: 1
RE: Some Expertise Needed - 5/15/2016 9:33:14 PM   
Helpless


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Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HexHead

* I'm playing a BG Italy scenario, about 36 Turns in and there seems to be no LW, hardly any sorties. So, why are my Strategic Transports by sea getting hit? AFAICS, they aren't flying during their Turn and I'm not seeing anything displayed to tell me if they're flying on my Turn.



it can get hit by enemy naval presence which is not contested by your air or navy. Enemy ports are generating naval interdiction values.

quote:


* Does the Axis have Port to Port supply?


Yes.

quote:

How can I determine Port sizes?


It appears on the map live text in parenthesis after word "port".

quote:

How can I determine where Railyards are?


They are show on the map when factory view is on (shift-l).




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Helpless -- 5/15/2016 9:35:19 PM >

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to HexHead)
Post #: 2
RE: Some Expertise Needed - 5/15/2016 10:01:48 PM   
HexHead

 

Posts: 464
Joined: 2/9/2010
From: I'm from New Hampshire; I only work in cyberspace
Status: offline 		Thanks for the info, but I'm a little boggled at one of these:

* it can get hit by enemy naval presence which is not contested by your air or navy. Enemy ports are generating naval interdiction values.


What? What? It's April, 1944! There is no Italian Navy! What, exactly, are we modelling here? That overwhelming naval presence in the Med by the Kriegsmarine? I can see some U-boat activity in the Med, but if that's the justification, it's a bit overpowered, to say the least - much too frequent, I think, but maybe one or two a week could be justified...

Still, I'm flying 1200, 1500, 2000 naval sorties a week - one might be forgiven for thinking that should do it.

Finally, I was re-reading game docs and thought that Ports exerted their 'presence' out to maybe five hexes or so.

* Does the Axis have Port to Port supply?

Yes.

Why? Again, what's being modelled here? It's early 1944 and the Axis has enough wet Supply capability to keep a division in schnitzel in southern Italy. Right.

Sorry, but in my most humble opinion, there should be no Axis Port supply, at the very least not to a non-continguous hex.

* The Port size display I knew about, thanks, anyway. Could've been supplemented on the UI, though, in addition to 9 point type in a display box. Also, everything I see is Port: 2. I mean everything. Something I'm missing here?

* Thanks for the FYI on Railyards.

< Message edited by HexHead -- 5/16/2016 5:28:37 AM >

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 3
RE: Some Expertise Needed - 5/15/2016 10:47:52 PM   
HexHead

 

Posts: 464
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From: I'm from New Hampshire; I only work in cyberspace
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quote:

The Port size display I knew about, thamks, anyway. Could've been supplemented on the UI, though, in addition to 9 point type in a display box. Also, everything I see is Port: 2. I mean everything. Something I'm missing here?


Sorry, misread your reply, Helpless. I'll check out the display again.

_____________________________

"Goddamn it, they're gittin' away!!"
- unknown tincan sailor near the end of Leyte Gulf, when Kurita retired

(in reply to HexHead)
Post #: 4
RE: Some Expertise Needed - 5/16/2016 3:32:53 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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From: Canada
Status: offline 		HexHead, read my Thread in the War Room on Naval patrol and naval interdiction. Essentially you need to control every sea hex through which you are transporting units. To control a sea hex you need to have 2 greater Sea Interdiction in the sea hex than your enemy. So even if the enemy sea interdiction in a hex is 0 you need to be 2.

(in reply to HexHead)
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RE: Some Expertise Needed - 5/16/2016 5:24:37 AM   
HexHead

 

Posts: 464
Joined: 2/9/2010
From: I'm from New Hampshire; I only work in cyberspace
Status: offline 		Thank you, I did read your thread. However, I'm flying over a 1000 sorties a Turn against next to no opposition, from what I can see. So how is the Axis exerting any control over anything?

Not to mention an incongruent model, I would say.

_____________________________

"Goddamn it, they're gittin' away!!"
- unknown tincan sailor near the end of Leyte Gulf, when Kurita retired

(in reply to Harrybanana)
Post #: 6
RE: Some Expertise Needed - 5/16/2016 7:52:20 AM   
HMSWarspite

 

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From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline 		Ok, the model is that the axis supply operates the same way yours does. You can trace supply through any sea hex that is not enemy controlled. Enemy control means they have 2 more interdiction in it than you do. Switch interdiction levels display on, and you will see exactly what they control. The numbers show it, but turn on hex ownership and the controlled ones are coloured. By 1944 you should have no problem closing down any receiving port you like, even if you can't close the sender.

What kind of interdiction pattern are you getting? You should be aiming for allied control right up to the Genoa and above, but in any event from Rome and south... And likewise in the Adriatic.

As to what it represents? Small craft, u boats, etc. E boats and MTB are not explicitly represented, and represent the zones exerted by ports.

_____________________________

I have a cunning plan, My Lord

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RE: Some Expertise Needed - 5/16/2016 4:27:22 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HexHead

Thank you, I did read your thread. However, I'm flying over a 1000 sorties a Turn against next to no opposition, from what I can see. So how is the Axis exerting any control over anything?

Not to mention an incongruent model, I would say.



Flying a 1000 sorties per turn doesn't mean anything if they are not being flown in the correct area. Are you using auto naval patrol? If so the sea hexes you will control will be greatly affected by where you have your air groups based. If you are not using auto patrol, can you give us screenshots of the way you have setup your Naval Patrol Air Directives. Also can you provide us some screenshots from after your air execution phase of the sea area you believe you should be controlling but are not. Once we have this information we will be able to comment on what you may be doing wrong.

(in reply to HexHead)
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RE: Some Expertise Needed - 5/16/2016 5:07:02 PM   
HexHead

 

Posts: 464
Joined: 2/9/2010
From: I'm from New Hampshire; I only work in cyberspace
Status: offline 		I'm still learning the mechanics of the Air War, so a lot of my stuff is still autopilot. That still begs the question, though - if the Axis is flying next to no sorties, how is any control whatsoever being exerted?

And if I may, let's return to the model. Let's just stick to the Med for the moment - after Italy surrenders, the Axis should have no seaborne transport - none. Barges at night, MTBs or U-boats at night, even air supply, is not enough to keep any large formation (isolated, non-contiguous, backs to the sea) supplied. I can see living off a city hex's supplies for two, three, maybe four Turns, but that's it.

So, are we saying in the Westwall scenario that Brest, Lorient and La Rochelle are in supply? Isolated, surrounded units on the other end of the Channel are somehow being supplied by the Axis?

Please tell me that's not so. I don't mind a 'live off the city hex' rule (those places held out for quite a while), but formally in supply? No, that shouldn't be.

The Allies had 1000% naval superiority at a certain point - everywhere. Doenitz had withdrawn the boats to European shores after May 1943, the Battle of the Atlantic was over, and the Allies had won. After Italy surrenders in the game, the Axis should have no seaborne capabilities whatsoever. Contesting the sealanes with the LW is OK, but if the AI chooses not to fly...

Something was not thought through thoroughly, imho. This pertains to modelling. If the game mechanics are a certain way, there's not much I can do, other than mod it or petition the devs.

And besides, the losses really aren't all that much, more of an annoyance than anything else.

Non-contiguous hexes being supplied by sea on the Axis side, though - that's simply at odds with the facts. Maybe it's 'balancing', I certainly don't know - but there's really no historical support for an Axis seaborne supply capability.

_____________________________

"Goddamn it, they're gittin' away!!"
- unknown tincan sailor near the end of Leyte Gulf, when Kurita retired

(in reply to Harrybanana)
Post #: 9
RE: Some Expertise Needed - 5/16/2016 5:11:31 PM   
HexHead

 

Posts: 464
Joined: 2/9/2010
From: I'm from New Hampshire; I only work in cyberspace
Status: offline 		Oh and Ports exerting control - I'm going to have to refresh myself on the rule, but, as pertains above - how are Axis Ports exerting any naval control beyond immediate hexes, or maybe two or three? With what, fishing smacks? I'm sorry, but Helpless's answer was a bit baffling to me - please don't tell me Axis Ports are exerting some kind of 'control' all the way across the Med. Or in the Channel. I can see immediate hexes, but not much more than that.

_____________________________

"Goddamn it, they're gittin' away!!"
- unknown tincan sailor near the end of Leyte Gulf, when Kurita retired

(in reply to HexHead)
Post #: 10
RE: Some Expertise Needed - 5/16/2016 6:52:44 PM   
Helpless


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Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline 		I didn't say anything about control. Control only triggers isolation and makes own naval transport losses much lower. Otherwise neutral hexes considered as CONTESTED SHIPPING, thus triggering potential transport losses.

I think all of this quite well described in the game manual.

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to HexHead)
Post #: 11
RE: Some Expertise Needed - 5/16/2016 7:06:18 PM   
HMSWarspite

 

Posts: 1401
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From: Bristol, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HexHead

I'm still learning the mechanics of the Air War, so a lot of my stuff is still autopilot. That still begs the question, though - if the Axis is flying next to no sorties, how is any control whatsoever being exerted?

And if I may, let's return to the model. Let's just stick to the Med for the moment - after Italy surrenders, the Axis should have no seaborne transport - none. Barges at night, MTBs or U-boats at night, even air supply, is not enough to keep any large formation (isolated, non-contiguous, backs to the sea) supplied. I can see living off a city hex's supplies for two, three, maybe four Turns, but that's it.

So, are we saying in the Westwall scenario that Brest, Lorient and La Rochelle are in supply? Isolated, surrounded units on the other end of the Channel are somehow being supplied by the Axis?

Please tell me that's not so. I don't mind a 'live off the city hex' rule (those places held out for quite a while), but formally in supply? No, that shouldn't be.

The Allies had 1000% naval superiority at a certain point - everywhere. Doenitz had withdrawn the boats to European shores after May 1943, the Battle of the Atlantic was over, and the Allies had won. After Italy surrenders in the game, the Axis should have no seaborne capabilities whatsoever. Contesting the sealanes with the LW is OK, but if the AI chooses not to fly...

Something was not thought through thoroughly, imho. This pertains to modelling. If the game mechanics are a certain way, there's not much I can do, other than mod it or petition the devs.

And besides, the losses really aren't all that much, more of an annoyance than anything else.

Non-contiguous hexes being supplied by sea on the Axis side, though - that's simply at odds with the facts. Maybe it's 'balancing', I certainly don't know - but there's really no historical support for an Axis seaborne supply capability.


There is no way (even on auto Air) Brest etc will be able to trace a line to a supply port with a half decent air force in UK, so no. However it will have stockpiles in the tens of thousands of tons league, so it will still be 'in supply'. You need to read up the experience of the RAF strike wings. They were still finding trade around Denmark and the Scandinavian coast well into 1945. Small coasters with nasty flak ships were still causing losses to the strike wings almost to the end. Al lot of movement had to be at night, but it was still there...

_____________________________

I have a cunning plan, My Lord

(in reply to HexHead)
Post #: 12
RE: Some Expertise Needed - 5/16/2016 7:39:02 PM   
HexHead

 

Posts: 464
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

I didn't say anything about control. Control only triggers isolation and makes own naval transport losses much lower. Otherwise neutral hexes considered as CONTESTED SHIPPING, thus triggering potential transport losses.

I think all of this quite well described in the game manual.


Granted, I probably need to clarify a couple of points, but if the LW isn't flying, and there is No Navy, then how is the Axis contesting anything?

I'm not seeing but maybe two dozen sorties a Turn by the Axis, either day or night, afaics. Am I not looking at something I should? Am I missing sorties flown by the Axis? I've tried to be scrupulous about what I'm seeing on the UI, and afaics, what I have described is the case.

I fail to see how they could contest anything if they're not flying, for they sure can't do it on the waves.

And since the esteemed HMSWarspite has pointed out residual sea traffic, yes, I'm aware of that, but it was shoveling sand against the tide, a drop in the bucket - you cannot keep a mid-20th century formation of any appreciable size supplied properly with barges and 60' trawlers, it ain't gonna work, the cargo capacities are far too small, for one thing; you'd have to have a Dunkirk every day, just about, to deliver the tons and tons of supplies needed, including fuel ( and let's not overlook fodder for those Hi-Tek Wehrmacht formations), spare parts, lubricating oil, medicines, radios, signal equipment, etc., etc., etc.

It simply can't be done, you need vessels which are proper cargo vessels, and, on top of all that, you need port facilities, cargo handling and distribution, etc.

Axis seaborne capabilities should be nil, nada, zippo. I have no problem with modelling minor U-boat annoyances, nor addressing any kind of a serious air effort against sealanes.

But if you're not flying, the engine shouldn't be awarding any sea interdiction points.

To be clear, these are two separate, but not wholly unrelated issues. The Axis shouldn't be getting any seaborne supply at all (because we've abstracted naval issues to a large degree), and shouldn't be interfering with Allied naval movements if the LW isn't actively contesting the waves. The latter is more of an annoyance than anything else, but the former is just a plain No, imho.

_____________________________

"Goddamn it, they're gittin' away!!"
- unknown tincan sailor near the end of Leyte Gulf, when Kurita retired

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 13
RE: Some Expertise Needed - 5/16/2016 10:44:51 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		Hexes are default contested. If nothing else, this represents subs able to cause losses to shipping. You use air to gain control over the area and reduce your losses. Posts above discuss why enemy ports have some, but very limited, interdiction ability that must be countered (by air or amphib HQs) to totally shut off local enemy shipping.

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RE: Some Expertise Needed - 5/16/2016 11:15:43 PM   
HexHead

 

Posts: 464
Joined: 2/9/2010
From: I'm from New Hampshire; I only work in cyberspace
Status: offline 		Well, if one wants to call it subs ('cuz it's pretty much nothing else if the oppo ain't flying), I can live with that - the losses in BG Italy from Tunisia to the mainland are more an annoyance than anything else, even though the historicity of that by late '43 is somewhat debatable.

How many hexes are Ports supposed to exert this influence - on both sides, I assume?

_____________________________

"Goddamn it, they're gittin' away!!"
- unknown tincan sailor near the end of Leyte Gulf, when Kurita retired

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 15
RE: Some Expertise Needed - 5/17/2016 7:24:57 AM   
HMSWarspite

 

Posts: 1401
Joined: 4/13/2002
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline 		You need to look at interdiction levels. The numbers in blue show the level of axis interdiction and you will see a range of about 5 hexes from the largest ports iirc). You will also see green numbers which are WA interdiction levels and by end 1943 you should see large numbers 4 and 5 or even higher) over most of the med. unless it is raining which Cuts interdiction levels quite a lot for a given level of air activity. It is quite easy not to lose much to the enemy after about September in the Med

_____________________________

I have a cunning plan, My Lord

(in reply to HexHead)
Post #: 16
RE: Some Expertise Needed - 5/17/2016 7:28:16 AM   
HexHead

 

Posts: 464
Joined: 2/9/2010
From: I'm from New Hampshire; I only work in cyberspace
Status: offline 		I just don't see how they get any numbers at all if they ain't flyin'. Oh well, it's not a game breaker, the actual losses are minor, but very annoying.

_____________________________

"Goddamn it, they're gittin' away!!"
- unknown tincan sailor near the end of Leyte Gulf, when Kurita retired

(in reply to HMSWarspite)
Post #: 17
RE: Some Expertise Needed - 5/17/2016 4:21:54 PM   
Harrybanana

 

Posts: 4097
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From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HexHead

I just don't see how they get any numbers at all if they ain't flyin'. Oh well, it's not a game breaker, the actual losses are minor, but very annoying.



The Germans will not gain any sea interdiction from their aircraft (just from their ports) if they are not flying. But my experience is that the AI almost always does fly some naval patrol missions.

(in reply to HexHead)
Post #: 18
RE: Some Expertise Needed - 5/17/2016 4:24:03 PM   
HexHead

 

Posts: 464
Joined: 2/9/2010
From: I'm from New Hampshire; I only work in cyberspace
Status: offline 		Does thirty qualify as 'some'? Oh well, we've beaten this to death. The code is the code at the moment.

_____________________________

"Goddamn it, they're gittin' away!!"
- unknown tincan sailor near the end of Leyte Gulf, when Kurita retired

(in reply to Harrybanana)
Post #: 19
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